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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Thorin vs ... a Giant Bat at the BoFA? *speculations and spoilers*


Aug 6 2013, 7:44am

Post #1 of 23 (1445 views)
Thorin vs ... a Giant Bat at the BoFA? *speculations and spoilers* Can't Post

Following several discussions regarding PJ's last shooting day updates, and a detailed analysis on who Thorin could be fighting in this picture, two things emerged - this is neither Azog or Bolg ...

Then again, as some suggested, it could simply be an orc - but why wear an entire greensuit, rather than a plain orc-costume. The attire seems to indicate an entirely CGI-crafted creature.

And whilst a goblin could suffice, I've convinced myself that Thorin may be fighting against a giant bat ... It might sound ridiculous to some, and yet, it's got an interesting concept to it.

I'd imagine PJ won't use the bats simply to cover up the sun or as "vampires" over dead bodies. We'll most certainly see them harassing and attacking Elves, Men and Dwarves - seriously injuring them

Thorin's "Last Shot", might not have necessarily meant his last stand; even if it did, this Bat ecounter could be just moments prior to the dwarf being mauled over by Azog (or Bolg).

Any thoughts? Am I way over my head?Crazy

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog

(This post was edited by Arandir on Aug 6 2013, 7:47am)

The Shire

Aug 6 2013, 8:25am

Post #2 of 23 (605 views)
Interesting idea but, although I don't know much about the technicalities of CGI... [In reply to] Can't Post

If it was a creature like a Giant Bat then I would be very surprised if they used someone in a green suit for the creature. The Bats were in the previous film and were not even half the size of a human so I'd say it's unlikely to be a bat.
I think it's an Orc of some kind, possibly Azog but then I've heard people say it's not the right actor so...Unsure

Back to the Bat idea, I find it very unlikely they would use a person in a green suit for a non-humanoid creature. But then it is still a possibility I suppose...

Oh and I really hope the bats fly down and hassle and attack the Elves, Men and Dwarves. I think it would make the battle even more interesting to have the forces of good having to fire arrows and fight with this big black cloud in amongst them. Smile

(This post was edited by ThorinIIIStonehelm on Aug 6 2013, 8:29am)


Aug 6 2013, 8:37am

Post #3 of 23 (560 views)
I think the main point of the Giant Bats, if any, is to be in air combat with the Eagles [In reply to] Can't Post

Similar to how the Nazgul and Fell beasts decimated the armies of Rohan and Gondor in LOTR.

I still think it is Azog, or another Orc.

Lieutenant of Dol Guldur

Aug 6 2013, 8:52am

Post #4 of 23 (552 views)
Is a dragon a humanoid creature? [In reply to] Can't Post

I find it very unlikely they would use a person in a green suit for a non-humanoid creature

I think a bat is more human than a dragon ;-) Could be a vampire :P

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Aug 6 2013, 9:14am

Post #5 of 23 (557 views)
the guy in the green suit [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that using an individual to mimick a bat doesnt sound likely - nonetheless, I imagined they used someone covered it green so that Richard Armitage could realistically act out a struggle with the creature and perform all of the action/reaction physics correctly (rather than having him fight off against thin air).

Im no expert on cgi either but I would imagine that whoever Thorin is fighting, the other actor will be completely replaced with something else...if it was an orc, that actor would have a facial tracking camera on his head to capture all its expressions.

Again, im no expert!Laugh

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog

(This post was edited by Arandir on Aug 6 2013, 9:23am)

The Shire

Aug 6 2013, 9:19am

Post #6 of 23 (497 views)
Ok, you've got me there [laugh] [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I also referred to the size of a Bat. And a Bat is in no way as important a creature as the great Smaug himself therefore the importance of expression on Smaug needs performance capture.

But yes I realise now my earlier statement about humanoid isn't a complete rule...Blush


Aug 6 2013, 9:20am

Post #7 of 23 (508 views)
The problem with being an orc [In reply to] Can't Post

is that the suit is too plain. As we have seen from various vlogs, the actors playing orcs are all costumed up, except perhaps, for a green cap to digitally replace their heads.

Also, if it's a goblin, then it should have facial camera trackers on the actor portraying the creature.

The setup in the image seems far too 'simplistic' for it to be a replacement for a completely digital orc...

Again, just a thought

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog

The Shire

Aug 6 2013, 9:33am

Post #8 of 23 (499 views)
Ok. I see what you mean... [In reply to] Can't Post

They're using a person so that the actors can act around the creature that will be there in the finished film. Like the idea for Gollum with Andy Serkis originally being put with Frodo and Sam so they had someone to act with.
Although I have seen it the other way with the Hobbit (in one of the vlogs I think) in the scene when the Wargs attack in the Trollshaws and the Dwarves were just fighting and stabbing thin air.

I didn't realise about facial tracking though...

I don't know, it's the sort of thing that could be either way I suppose. A Bat is a possibility. We will find out in December 2014 I guess...too long to wait Frown


Aug 6 2013, 9:55am

Post #9 of 23 (473 views)
I know, right? [In reply to] Can't Post

We will find out in December 2014 I guess...too long to waitFrown

Waay too long. And yet, I still cant believe how fast 7 and a half months have passed since I saw AUJ for the first time. I was thinking how on earth could I wait 12 more months for film 2.

And yet here we all are less than 4.5 months away from DOS ...

Patience ... Breathe in and breathe out ... Wink

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog


Aug 6 2013, 9:59am

Post #10 of 23 (465 views)
Interesting... [In reply to] Can't Post

Could be a vampire :P

Some kind of mid-air transformation as the bat plummets to the ground ... Which would cause Beorn's sudden appearance and showing off his own shape-shifting skills! Laugh

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog


Aug 6 2013, 10:23am

Post #11 of 23 (502 views)
Yeah... not the Eagles AGAIN, please. [In reply to] Can't Post

Too similar to ROTK, too "deus ex machina" again, too many people asking, again, why the Eagles didn't help them all along.



Aug 6 2013, 10:34am

Post #12 of 23 (472 views)
I'm quite happy with them, as long as it's done in a different way to ROTK [In reply to] Can't Post

There are obviously similarities between a few scenes, but I haven't once thought that a scene could have almost been ripped from LOTR.

I think this might be an Orc of Dol Guldur, or somewhere other than Goblintown or Gundabad, which is why they're being created in a different way perhaps.


Aug 6 2013, 1:04pm

Post #13 of 23 (437 views)
Well, Tolkien was the one who decided to involve the eagles... [In reply to] Can't Post

..so of course they should be in the battle.

And do you know what? I've never heard one single person ask why the eagles didn't help them all along. Not one. In either book. Just fans assuring one another that if this isn't done, or this, or if the eagles are used as Tolkien meant them to be, then 'people' will ask why the eagles weren't used all along. I don't know who these people are, but I have to say I've never met one!


Aug 6 2013, 4:06pm

Post #14 of 23 (381 views)
I just think the green mask looks like batman's [In reply to] Can't Post



Aug 6 2013, 4:36pm

Post #15 of 23 (388 views)
It has irritatingly cropped up in the majority of movie discussions I've had with both fans and non-fans alike (bot not on torn). [In reply to] Can't Post

Two youtube videos no doubt popularized the idea. As you can tell by the number of views and the percentage of "likes" to "dislikes", a significant number of individuals share this sentiment:


I've found that those who bring it up in conversations about the books and movies do so as an alternative to discussing themes central to the works. The popularity of this criticism annoys me because it is a very real hindrance to one's chances of finding somebody who won't cop out of a literary discussion by bringing it up.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951

(This post was edited by Aitieuriskon on Aug 6 2013, 4:36pm)


Aug 6 2013, 5:42pm

Post #16 of 23 (340 views)
Good point [In reply to] Can't Post

It I'll be interesting how PJ will manage to combine the two heroes clashing against each other during such a pivotal moment ...

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Aug 6 2013, 6:32pm

Post #17 of 23 (325 views)
IMO they wouldn't use human mo-cap for a creature that is not humanoid in form [In reply to] Can't Post

And would a bat not have wings? Tongue

Unless of course, the bats in question are closer to Morgoth's vampires (which many have hoped will appear in some form in the Necro story), and might be capable of speech - in that case, a human actor would make sense.

Agreed, however, that PJ may be teasing us and this scene may not be what one would initially assume.

(BTW, an actor who wasn't Manu Bennett - and in fact looked suspiciously like a young John Cleese - was apparently doing Azog prep/mo-cap in the hour-long DoS preview, so I think there's no point in attempting to track all the people who've played (or almost) played this character). Maybe this is Azog # whatever? Blush

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Aug 6 2013, 9:14pm

Post #18 of 23 (292 views)
Batman Versus Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

could be an interesting fight if the casting rumours for Superman versus Batman are true...Wink


Aug 6 2013, 11:37pm

Post #19 of 23 (252 views)
Maybe it's Azog's Warg? [In reply to] Can't Post

It would make sense for those two to fight each other at some point, and like you mentioned they guy in green could simply be there to assist in acting out the struggle. At least that's my guess. Tongue

I suppose it's still possible that it's Azog himself, since he's entirely CGI and the green guy would have to be replaced completely. But he doesn't seem to be doing any acting, so maybe the Thorin and Azog scenes are filmed separately and then stitched together? (Assuming it is Azog.)

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

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Aug 7 2013, 6:45am

Post #20 of 23 (222 views)
Not to mention, if Richard Armitage plays batman ... [In reply to] Can't Post

or so say the rumours.

I'd imagine one-awesome stand-off of Armitage vs Armitage - probably that's why there's the guy in green; he may be standing for Richard whilst he's shooting his Thorin part - then they'll switch sides and Richard will play the batman part.

You never know ... Laugh

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog


Aug 7 2013, 6:46am

Post #21 of 23 (205 views)
Not a bad idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

The warg concept is interesting which I hadn't thought of!

Now you mention it, I seem to recall that in Vlog 4, amongst the opening shots of the video, we see Bilbo holding Sting as he is being pushed back against a tree by a similar green-suited guy ... that was eventually replaced with a warg in the pine wood forest scene in AUJ.

I'm guessing you might be on the right track with this one Wink

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog

The Shire

Aug 7 2013, 7:43pm

Post #22 of 23 (184 views)
Before this thread basically "dies" I'd like to ask a question about that pic... [In reply to] Can't Post

Does Thorin look to be wearing any "Armour to end all Armours?" Cos it looks like he's wearing something very similar to what he wore at Azanulbizar. Just a dark Blueish tunic over Chainmail (I can't see the Chainmail but the tunic looks the same so I'm just guessing).

Forgive me if this has been asked before somewhere else but I'm just very curious...


Aug 8 2013, 6:38pm

Post #23 of 23 (137 views)
My thoughts exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post

I was wondering how Armitage had made that statement a few years ago - and yet, (though it looks pretty cool), I wouldn't call it armour Crazy ... unlike the Dwalin shot from PJ's facebook post a few minutes earlier, which looks very good indeed Smile

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog


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