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some answers

elostirion74
Rohan

Aug 5 2013, 9:02pm


Views: 302
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some answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Good questions!

I think Tuor did have a chance of persuading Turgon to leave Gondolin. And Ulmos help obviously encouraged him to believe that he actually could achieve something important and had a significant role to play. But it all depends on how Turgon reacts to Tuors advice, if he is able to humble himself or able to part with his own home and the city he and his followers have built. If Ulmo had given the same advice to an elf, I think the elf would have just about the same chances of influencing Turgon, since Turgon primarily would recognize the messenger by the tokens he or she presented, but I think theres another factor involved as well. Since Tuor was the son of someone Turgon already had met and cared for, its more likely that he would listen to his message than if it had come from an unknown elf who wore the same tokens.

All of this means that the impact of the choices and decisions of Elves and Men in Arda depend on how the same actions and words are received and understood by others, just like in our world. The main difference lies in the fact that the weight of a bad inheritance seems heavier and more powerful than in our own and the consequences of showing pride seem to be nastier than what we see in our own primary world.

Maeglin seems to be both rash and to act on his own negative impulses, when he could have shown more restraint or turned his love for Idril into something else (sublimation). Its clearly shown that he has emotional motivations for his actions, which make them plausible, but at the same time I believe, and I think we are meant to think, that he could have acted differently. The people who tell his story are people who are trying to make sense of what happens in hindsight, like we all do, which is why I believe they entertain the idea of his nature as being a fruit of the Kinslaying.

The perceptions that the characters have of their own freedom definitely influences their reality. Turin seems to strives so much to avoid his possible fate that it ultimately overtakes him: if you act to avoid fate you might unwittingly seal your own fate by the same act. I find it significant that Trin takes the name "Master of doom", which seems to be a sign that he tries to convince himself that he is somehow invincible, a very foolhardy thing to do. Since he ultimately wants to be a self-made man, not dependent on anyone else, he refuses the opportunities he is offered of being forgiven if it means he has to abide the laws of other rulers.

I think theres no doubt that Fanor does have several real choices in life - although I think he hardly had an opportunity not to pursue a life as an artist without feeling deeply unfulfilled and frustrated. Its his possessive attitude towards the things he makes and his decision not to acknowledge that part of the origins of his creations come from the work of others which is the start of his downfall. Add to that his inflated confidence about what he is actually able to achieve, and he starts a self-destructive spiral where he ends up being consumed by his own desires and hatred when he believes he is able to master and use them to his own benefit.

Subject User Time
silmarillion chapter discussion -- "of tuor and the fall of gondolin" Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 4 2013, 10:27pm
    Predictions and prophecies noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 5 2013, 9:39am
        predictions, blessings, prophecies and self-fulfilling prophecies Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 5 2013, 1:15pm
            There's also an author in the mix... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 5 2013, 3:22pm
            Ulmo's powers, intentions and limits noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 6 2013, 11:49am
                Knowledge and manipulation CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 11 2013, 7:13pm
                    great post, curiousg Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 11 2013, 11:31pm
                        Nevrast's value Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Aug 12 2013, 12:01am
                            interesting thought Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 1:15am
                                Higher-ups helping out... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Aug 13 2013, 8:54pm
                                    i think Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 13 2013, 9:09pm
            A thought about DOOM noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 6 2013, 11:55am
                i think this fits the words of namo better Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 6 2013, 12:04pm
                    Certainly at least part-punishment noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 6 2013, 12:21pm
                        i think it's more than part-punishment... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 6 2013, 12:33pm
                            it sure sounds very much like a sentence/punishment, but I think it could be seen just as much as a prophecy elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 6 2013, 6:13pm
                    Crimes and punishments CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 8 2013, 8:55pm
    Quick 1st answer CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 5 2013, 6:42pm
        delightful first answer : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 5 2013, 7:15pm
            PS. Why are you STILL in the Grey Havens? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 5 2013, 7:48pm
                i rather Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 5 2013, 8:10pm
        so now Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 4:00am
            Hmmm CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 13 2013, 5:00am
    Hmmmm.......... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 5 2013, 8:00pm
        hmmmmm.... : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 9 2013, 9:35pm
            Just in general Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 10 2013, 3:30am
                That was my reaction too Rembrethil! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Aug 10 2013, 3:53am
        now that Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 3:56am
            I would think that it is still pretty accurate Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 12 2013, 4:10am
    some answers elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 5 2013, 9:02pm
        hallo : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 9 2013, 9:46pm
            hmm elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 11 2013, 1:05am
    Some general thought on the chapter. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 6 2013, 5:06pm
    Tardy to the party... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Aug 7 2013, 2:22am
        a question elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 7 2013, 2:12pm
            Thanks Elostirion! And I think you are spot on here Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Aug 7 2013, 4:51pm
                Doom and pragmatism CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 8 2013, 8:36pm
                    Pride and choice ... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Aug 8 2013, 9:30pm
                    "Leave Gondolin and go +where?+" noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 9 2013, 12:09pm
                        if glaurung is dead... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 8:29pm
                    more great thoughts, cg Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 4:36am
            interesting ... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 4:48am
        loved all your thoughts Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 4:20am
            More fate vs choice Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Aug 13 2013, 8:35pm
                great responses! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 13 2013, 9:00pm
                    Really late to the feast but.... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Aug 15 2013, 10:12pm
                        heya : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 15 2013, 10:31pm
                            Re: Sil characters... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Aug 15 2013, 11:26pm
                                dang : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 15 2013, 11:43pm
                Great insight into Maeglin CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 14 2013, 2:53am
    A chapter fought over by two prophecies noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 9 2013, 12:16pm
    A pithy quote Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 9 2013, 5:37pm
    Sil and the Enneagram telain Send a private message to telain Aug 9 2013, 10:24pm
        hey, telain : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 9 2013, 10:51pm
    So, I'm either Trin or Mriel Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Aug 10 2013, 11:02am
        Memo to self: call someone (who deserves it) an "aJSDufSJHKDJAjasfhalhfg idiot "! But how do you pronounce it? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 10 2013, 8:04pm
            [ay-sdu-fsyh-kdya-yas-fhalh-fg] would be the correct IPA pronunciation.// Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Aug 11 2013, 2:05pm
                What? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 11 2013, 5:00pm
                    Maybe it all makes more sense after a few pints of IPA // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 11 2013, 8:23pm
                        I can read IPA Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 12 2013, 3:16am
                            Maybe I regret staring this IPA query... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 12 2013, 8:58am
        re the personality profiles and the characters Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 11 2013, 11:42pm
            I like that last thought Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 12 2013, 2:54am
                exactly! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 2:58am
    fwiw, i found Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 12:42am
        Cool quiz! arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Aug 13 2013, 6:41pm
            so glad you liked it!!! : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 13 2013, 9:48pm
                I don't like the test CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 14 2013, 2:33am
            how one views oneself vs. how the world views you Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 13 2013, 10:11pm
            ok -- found it -- Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 13 2013, 10:21pm
                Maeglin arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Aug 14 2013, 12:46am
                    great insights! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 14 2013, 1:03am
                    what if Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 14 2013, 1:04am
                        Ha ha! arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Aug 14 2013, 1:55am
                        I think Morgoth would have to be a #3. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 14 2013, 2:24am
                            Tolkien's Evil Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 14 2013, 3:04am
                                largely in agreement... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 15 2013, 10:39pm
                                    Without getting TOO philosophical Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 16 2013, 12:57pm
                    This is a great observation CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 14 2013, 2:20am
    Ulmo Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Aug 12 2013, 9:10am
        ulmo Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 12 2013, 8:36pm
            Ulmo Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Aug 13 2013, 9:31am

 
 
 

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