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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The SLIGHTLY Extended Edition
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Soundchaser
The Shire

Aug 1 2013, 11:20pm

Post #251 of 371 (802 views)
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Wow...10 pages already. [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me make some predictions pertaining to November, after the EE is released:

There will be another thread, very similar to this one, that is also double-digit pages and hundreds of posts in length;

There will be some who expected to be disappointed and will be.

There will be some who expected to be disappointed and will be pleasantly surprised.

There will be some who expected to be pleased and will be.

There will be some who expected to be pleased and won't be.

Then there are those few, such as myself, who choose to be pleased and will be thankful for the fact that these films got made at all, that they are available in an extended cut with lots of extras, and will appreciate that they are available in a high quality format in which I can enjoy them at my leisure.

First World problems indeed.

I'm chasing sound. Has anyone seen any?


Elessar
Valinor


Aug 1 2013, 11:24pm

Post #252 of 371 (749 views)
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I'll take the fluff [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd love more but that's just me being greedy. Based on that one scene and reports of what's coming it sounds like an already awesome film is going to be even more so. I'll be snatching it up when it ships in November and have my butt in a seat at midnight in December.



JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 1 2013, 11:27pm

Post #253 of 371 (759 views)
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Saving The Film - The Sequel [In reply to] Can't Post

Because you make the very same point that I responded to above, maybe you missed it. I repeat it for your benefit:


In Reply To
...those who feel the film was missing crucial materials, such as Bilbo falling in love with Rivendell, hung their hopes on 25 minutes of extra footage that could repair a flawed film. Thirteen minutes does not seem to be enough time to fix what is wrong. No matter how good the 13 minutes is, it doesn't make up for what you have to remove, such as the Radagast rabbit chase and much of Goblin Town (I know - sadly, they'll still be there), to still come up with a 25 minute longer runtime. Historically, the LOTR films did much better with the EEs. For these people, it will probably still be a disappointing film and they know it.



FrogmortonJustice65
Rivendell


Aug 1 2013, 11:36pm

Post #254 of 371 (731 views)
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My apologies... [In reply to] Can't Post

For making you copy paste your argument *to my benefit*. These discussions are a bit hard to follow.

I still find your argument unpersuasive. What is the difference between 13 and 25 minutes in terms of repairing the film? If the chase scenes and other flaws with AUJ are as bad as you claim, why does an extra 12 minutes make or break the film's quality in your mind? There's not much of a distinction between 12 and 25 minutes in terms of repairing the film. The EE is not subtracting scenes you don't like from the movie. There will still be bunnies and chases. You will still dislike those scenes, whether or not they are padded by 13 or 25 minutes of footage. The movie will have the exact same *flaws* you identified with the theatrical edition.

I just think the rush to judgement is premature given that we have not seen these scenes yet...you don't know whether or not these 13 minutes will change your perception of the movie.

You also didn't answer the second component of my argument (unless I have missed it somewhere in this 10+ page thread). What do you think could be reasonably added given that they have split the book into 3 films? They have thoroughly adapted the first several chapters of the Hobbit and then some; how do you suggest they fill that extra 12 minutes now that there are 3 films? The only conceivable way would be to fill it up with more non-canon chase scenes, which is what you are complaining about. Or do you really just have a problem with the split to 3 films itself?

 photo cbccab4e-f61e-4be5-aaa1-20e302430c7c.jpg


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 1 2013, 11:44pm

Post #255 of 371 (722 views)
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There is (just about) enough material in the book(s) for a little more [In reply to] Can't Post

The Dwarves being teased by the elves about their beards, the elves singing, Fili and Kili's horses bolting off into the river, extended songs, the eagles nest (though I very much doubt that will be in!) extended riddles, more shots of them exploring the ruins along the roads of Arnor, Thorin meeting Gandalf in Bree, Dain Ironfoot being introduced (though me thinks this is switching to DOS as part of the flashback to the flashback at Battle of Anazibarar thingy) additional dialogue from the book-there are a few things that could be padded out I guess

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 1 2013, 11:51pm

Post #256 of 371 (735 views)
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Saving The Film - The Sequel, Part II [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I just think the rush to judgement is premature given that we have not seen these scenes yet...you don't know whether or not these 13 minutes will change your perception of the movie.

You also didn't answer the second component of my argument (unless I have missed it somewhere in this 10+ page thread). What do you think could be reasonably added given that they have split the book into 3 films? They have thoroughly adapted the first several chapters of the Hobbit and then some; how do you suggest they fill that extra 12 minutes now that there are 3 films? The only conceivable way would be to fill it up with more non-canon chase scenes, which is what you are complaining about. Or do you really just have a problem with the split to 3 films itself?


I'm explaining why there is disappointment now - not predicting whether it is rational in retrospect. Thirteen minutes does not seem like enough time to fix what many think is a flawed film. There is little hope of repairing it to the tastes of those who were disappointed without that 25 minutes. They are doomed to be disappointed. Capiche?

I like the split to three films. I'm not quite the purist you might expect. I wanted the White Council storyline. You'll have to read more threads to get the jist what folks who think the film is flawed wanted from an Extended Edition. My wish for an additional running time which included the deletion of stupid scenes was a jest rooted in a realistic expectation that that would not happen, hence my "sadly" aside.


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Aug 2 2013, 12:38am

Post #257 of 371 (704 views)
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Very true. [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually stay out of threads that debate (sometimes rather heatedly Unsure) the merits of the movie adaptations, since not everyone will ever be completely happy. However, I think you hit the nail on the head here.

I am with you. I am so grateful that there is a Hobbit movie, let alone three, that I cannot find it in myself to complain too much.

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


kbdiggity
Rivendell

Aug 2 2013, 12:57am

Post #258 of 371 (681 views)
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.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
You could maybe try not to be quite so disappointed until you've seen it? Surely it's the content of the additional scenes that matters, not their precise minute count.


Something I've been meaning to mention is that those who feel the film was missing crucial materials, such as Bilbo falling in love with Rivendell, hung their hopes on 25 minutes of extra footage that could repair a flawed film. Thirteen minutes does not seem to be enough time to fix what is wrong. No matter how good the 13 minutes is, it doesn't make up for what you have to remove, such as the Radagast rabbit chase and much of Goblin Town (I know - sadly, they'll still be there), to still come up with a 25 minute longer runtime. Historically, the LOTR films did much better with the EEs. For these people, it will probably still be a disappointing film and they know it.






1. Historically the LoTR films did a much better job with the EEs removing what was wrong? Really? I must have missed those Extended Editions where Arwen was removed from the Ford of Bruinen, Elves were removed from Helm's Deep, Galadriel and Elrond's psychic connection was removed, scrubbing bubble ghosts were removed from Minas Tirith, and Legolas' shield surfing was removed.


2. Is it at all possible for you to stop pretending to be the voice of a large group of people? "Those people who feel the film was missing crucial materials." "For these people..." You are expressing your own personal opinions. No one hired your to represent a class action suit.




I love this board right now. It is literally like a 10 year anniversary of all the whining and moaning I witnessed on this site during the Lord of the Rings films. The lengths people will go just to complain about anything never ceases to amaze me. Posters are actually pretending like there wasn't major outrage over a ton of stuff with each LoTR film, as they try to use those films to bash the latest film.

You literally have no idea at all what will be within the 13 minutes of extended footage. Yet you are willing to write a couple dozen arguments about why 13 minutes is disappointing. "It does not seem to be enough time to fix what is wrong." You've got no clue what it does or doesn't achieve. One thing is certain... the LoTR Extended Editions didn't come close to fixing what was wrong with the theatrical editions and they had a ton of extra footage. The reality is it is unlikely that anything unpopular will be changed with Extended Edition footage, and that precedent was set a decade ago.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 2 2013, 1:38am

Post #259 of 371 (672 views)
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It's the third stage of the Kübler-Ross-TORn model of grief. [In reply to] Can't Post

The following was a hopeful mantra every single time after the outpouring of suffering of Denial and Anger on the boards with each of the theatrical editions of FOTR, TTT, and ROTK:

"The EE will fix everything!"

Of course it never did, so the sufferers went on to the fourth stage, Depression.

However, by the time the next movie was released they'd be in the fifth stage of Acceptance. So after DOS is released expect statements like the following:

"AUJ was PERFECT! How could Jackson have so totally messed up DOS??"

I've seen it happen over and over again just like clockwork.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 2 2013, 1:42am)


Na Vedui
Rohan


Aug 2 2013, 1:46am

Post #260 of 371 (675 views)
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All this... [In reply to] Can't Post

... makes me feel so old! 'Cos I can remember a time
before there were Extended Editions
before DVDs
before VHS
before our family had a telly
when we saw a film maybe a couple of times in the cinema if we were lucky, and * that was it *.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 2 2013, 1:52am

Post #261 of 371 (686 views)
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Ah, but back then... [In reply to] Can't Post

They didn't chase you out of the theater between showings so you could stay all day and see the movie over and over again on the same ticket!

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 2 2013, 2:17am

Post #262 of 371 (651 views)
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Willful Misunderstanding [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. Historically the LoTR films did a much better job with the EEs removing what was wrong? Really?


That's not what I wrote. You'll need to separate what I wish for in jest from what I realistically expect. The LOTR EEs, in terms of what we know about extra minutes and commentary tracks, were far better.


In Reply To
2. Is it at all possible for you to stop pretending to be the voice of a large group of people? "Those people who feel the film was missing crucial materials." "For these people..." You are expressing your own personal opinions. No one hired your to represent a class action suit.


Hey, you're right! I guess I was wrong to start that law suit. Oh, wait, I didn't. Hyperbole, anyone? I try to write objectively even when I include myself. If I am unique in my views, I am wrong to be inclusive.

Well, responding to the rest of your post would be too much fun for a mere human to keep to himself, and it would be selfish of me to try. So I'll just leave it there and share the joy.

Don't be bitter. Wink


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Aug 2 2013, 2:32am

Post #263 of 371 (647 views)
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And.. [In reply to] Can't Post

They were one screen theatres with double features and they had the curtain that went up before the movie started. Bon bons, all day at the movies for 15c. Those were the days! Loved them!

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Aug 2 2013, 4:52am

Post #264 of 371 (633 views)
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So... [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think we are going to get a documentary about Shore's music score, or songs only? I don't see Howard Shore mentioned anywere. Frown

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"


TheHutt
Gondor


Aug 2 2013, 7:18am

Post #265 of 371 (560 views)
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EE Fixes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The following was a hopeful mantra every single time after the outpouring of suffering of Denial and Anger on the boards with each of the theatrical editions of FOTR, TTT, and ROTK:

"The EE will fix everything!"

Of course it never did, so the sufferers went on to the fourth stage, Depression.


As a matter of fact, I personally think that the expectations towards the SEE were different with the course of the LOTR trilogy.

FOTR: nobody knew what really to expect. True, there were glimpses in the trailers with scenes omitted from the film (Elves giving gifts to the Fellowship in Lothlorien), but I think the majority had no expectations about the SEE. And whereas I think it improved on the overall of the film, making it lest hasty, it did not bring any radical improvements.

TTT: this one, I think, profited the most from the SEE extensions. The character of Faramir got much bashing for the TE and was radically improved over the SEE. Basically, I think this film raised the bar about "The SEE will fix everything".

ROTK: by the time this film came, fans were already hooked on the SEEs and were already having certain expectations - ones that the real extended edition could not fulfill. Whereas several of the additions (mostly to Frodo & Sam's Mordor scenes) grandly improved the film, in my opinion, several of the other added scenes made the movie actually worse compared to the TE: the Wizard Kebab, Gandalf vs. Witchking, Aragorn Dropping The Evenstar, the Corsairs of Umbar and of course the Skull Avalanche(tm). As a matter of fact, several of the reinserted scenes made it obvious to me why they were excluded in the first place.

As for The Hobbit Slightly Extended Edition, I think this is just another loop of the growing expectations, a process already started in the course of LOTR.

Russian LOTR & Hobbit Site: Henneth-Annun.ru


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 2 2013, 8:25am

Post #266 of 371 (567 views)
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Doesn't look the way... [In reply to] Can't Post

Which probably says something about the way Shore's music was handled in this film.


Arannir
Valinor


Aug 2 2013, 11:03am

Post #267 of 371 (505 views)
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Not directed to this last post particularly... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but in general: Thanks for being a voice of reason in this thread.

I really, really enjoy your often ironic and sarcastic quotes and comments - while always remaining polite even when confronted with complete hostility and snarkyness.

What I do not understand is how some people here who seem to have quite a problem with AUJ anyway have the nerve to tell others how they should behave if they want to be educated and smart consumers. Quite funny actually. But I think I will be happier to leave the thread again ;)



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

(This post was edited by Arannir on Aug 2 2013, 11:07am)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Aug 2 2013, 11:50am

Post #268 of 371 (488 views)
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you seem to have missed some important points [In reply to] Can't Post

ie the LOTR EE didnt add any scenes that had been crucial to the story but had been missed due to running time, the EE additions were more like added scenes to the already well rounded story. (If they had fimed Hobbiton to Bree or Scouring it would have meant a lot more than 30 minutes imo)
The EE of AUJ being 13 minutes seems to be made up of made up stuff rather than crucial character scenes that would bring Bilbo back into focus as the main protagonist. Bilbo is largely absent as regards character development once they leave Hobbiton, the only blip is Riddles, the rest of the time he plays second fiddle to Thorin and Gandalf. The scene between Elrond and Bilbo was pretty meaningless, it just rehashed Frodos old speech about Elves and was just plonked in without much logic, it told us nothing about Bilbo. So if its all like this or worse more action sequences 13 minutes is less than useless.


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 2 2013, 12:42pm

Post #269 of 371 (480 views)
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25 of course.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Who wouldn't?

But as I'm not in a position to know what extra content they have, or how long it lasts, I'm not about to stamp my feet and sulk because the extra footage Peter Jackson thought would amount to 20 - 25 minutes has turned out to be about 13 minutes. Why? Because I haven't seen the footage. I don't know what it contains. For all I know there may be a segment that he's decided to hold over as prologue material for one of the other films. Or he was only estimating the time taken by the scenes he wanted to add. I'm certain sure he will have included everything he wants to, because all the comments he makes lead me to believe that he enjoys this business of re-editing the film for an extended cut. So at this point all anyone who hasn't already decided to be disgruntled and reject it out of hand can do is wait. Wait and see.

Besides, there's something about the tone of some of the comments I've seen on this (not yours) that really borders on petulance:

"We want an extended cut".

"Here you are, you can have one."

"That's not good enough, we want a LONGER one."

"But you haven't seen it yet."

"We don't need to see it, we just know it's all wrong and you're cheating us."

"????"


Noria
Rohan

Aug 2 2013, 1:12pm

Post #270 of 371 (470 views)
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Dormouse, I couldn't agree more. Petulance indeed. [In reply to] Can't Post

And also, great posts Soundchaser, Werde Spinner, Arannir.

I don’t think the EE was ever going to "fix" AUJ. I don't think it needs “fixing”, in fact I don’t want it “fixed”.

Thirteen or thirty minutes of added content is not going to fundamentally change AUJ, just embellish it. The movie is not going to be extensively recut, nothing will be removed, nothing will really change because I rather suspect that Peter Jackson likes the movie as it is.

I doubt that there is a huge amount of additional material available after the three-film split was decided upon and I’d bet some of it has been moved to DoS. Too bad if the Narsil scene isn't in though; I’d have liked to have seen that. But then I'd also have liked to have seen Faramir and Eowyn's wedding in RotK.

This is not 2001 or even 2003 and DVD/Blu-ray releases are not what they once were, in my experience. The LotR trilogy EE’s have the most, best content of any special edition that I've ever seen. More would be better on the AUJ disks but would we ever be sated?

Some people are insisting that a good part of the additional content will be stuff we have already seen. Is there any evidence for that or is it just supposition based on similar titles?

I dislike the implication that people like me who are pleased enough with the content to acquire the EE are somehow too stupid to know better and will buy it for some sort of wrong reason. That’s the same implication made about people who like the movie itself. I make my choice for my own reasons.

I wouldn't blame Peter Jackson a jot if he read this thread (not that I believe he will) and decided that there is nothing he is able, or at least willing, to do to please us. He could start ignoring the fans altogether: nor more Facebook, no more Vlogs, and, if the AUJ EE doesn't do well, no Extended Editions of DoS and TaBA. He could be like most other directors and do publicity for the movies at the appropriate time and that’s all.


xxxyyy
Rohan

Aug 2 2013, 1:25pm

Post #271 of 371 (448 views)
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True indeed. I guess I'm pathetic... [In reply to] Can't Post

For me the EE are JUST for the extra footage.
In fact I have yet too se documentaries that came with TTT and ROTK... let alone all the commentaries.
I just feel cheated. PJ himself said we would get 20/25 minutes of extra footage...
I'm sure there will be a super EE, that's why I'm not buying this "extended edition".

http://energyfromthorium.com/


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 2 2013, 1:47pm

Post #272 of 371 (451 views)
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Even after we see it, we won't know whether it is better or worse than when we thought it was more additional content [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that for myself, in retrospect I think the ROTK EE would have been much better if had about half of the added content that it actually had (so long as the parts that were excluded were the parts I didn't like, like the horrible skull avalanche). It could well be that Jackson took a final look and decided that some of the added material that he thought he was including in the AUJ EE was on that type of level and decided not to include it. We will very likely never know what additional material would have made up the extra 7-12 minutes, and whether it would have made the film better or worse.

Would it be terrible for me to admit that I actually have found this thread to be quite amusing?

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 2 2013, 1:53pm

Post #273 of 371 (437 views)
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True...I have been wondering if Warner Bros is behind this [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
This is not 2001 or even 2003 and DVD/Blu-ray releases are not what they once were, in my experience. The LotR trilogy EE’s have the most, best content of any special edition that I've ever seen.


LOTR truely set the benchmark for special features IMO (the only set I've seen come close in the Alien Anthology on Blu Ray), and even If I'm a little dissapointed AUJ is still a pretty decent effort to me, much more then many other films get (In anycase I'm pretty sure I haven't seen all of the LOTR EE extras yet- and I've yet to listen to the art team commentaries, or watch the Costa Botes, or Theatrical extras).

Warner bros has a bit of a history of double dipping DVD's-just look at the Harry Potter films, there were loads of different Box sets released before the final 'wizards collection' in 2012 (even then it still excluded the hours of deleted scenes), so me thinks they might have had some say in this (judging by how bad the marketing for AUJ was)

As for your other points, I can't see why Narsil wouldn't be in, but I agree alot of stuff was probably switched to DOS (If the flashback to Thrain's dissapearance is included I'm banking on Dain being introduced there as well)


The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Aug 2 2013, 1:55pm

Post #274 of 371 (432 views)
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Ha ha [In reply to] Can't Post

It has been funny. Most of us have feelings one way or another on initial impression and that's what makes it interesting. You do make an excellent point about the additional content though. I hadn't thought of it that way. I do agree about RoTK also. Of the 3 EE;s, the additional scenes anyway in that addition really weren't that great.

I guess because I like AUJ the way it was just fine and had no issues with it the 13 minutes vs. 20 or whatever isn't an issue. I did like what I saw between Bilbo and Elrond in the scene they put out though.

My main issue is the lack of a cast commentary track. I think I'm going to wait and see before I buy it. I haven't been a big fan of WB's marketing strategy. I do like PJ's vision and think he's done a terrific job though. I have the TE which I enjoy. We'll see what the rest of the content holds then I'll decide.

The thread has been interesting and I have to say when I read people's comments it does make me think about things I might not have considered (like yours) and I appreciate that.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 2 2013, 2:26pm

Post #275 of 371 (536 views)
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Fixing [In reply to] Can't Post

The FOTR-EE was supposed to fix Aragorn, Saruman, and Galadriel.

The TTT-EE was supposed to fix Treebeard, Theoden, and Faramir.

The ROTK-EE was supposed to fix Sam, Gandalf, and Denethor.


As a matter of fact, several of the reinserted scenes made it obvious to me why they were excluded in the first place.

QFT! (Quoted For Truth.)


For example, many felt the scene at Gilraen's grave in the FOTR-EE made Reluctant Aragorn worse. And many felt the TTT-EE made Faramir even worse with the addition of Smeagol’s extended torture scene as well as Faramir's rather brutal manhandling of Gollum in the Osgiliath sewers.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


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