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Discussion points

Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 30 2013, 1:49am


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Discussion points [In reply to] Can't Post

Canon

Really, as there is no finished version, there cannot be one, as we don't know Tolkien's final intents(He was an inveterate niggler). We must hen form our own 'canon' as it were, interpreting his intents for ourselves. Christopher had a pretty good idea, but he also admitted to mistakes made, so we can't take his word be final either.

Hurin

He did some pretty bad things. Murder is wrong in any context, but that doesn't stop us from empathizing with him. I don't think that we are supposed to pass moral judgement on him, so much as feel his pain.
In revealing Gondolin, Hurin furthered Morgoth's plans, albeit unintentionally. He was unbroken in seeming, yet those long years must have had some effect on him. Men are molded by their experiences, and they cannot stay the same for ever, they do not have time to waste in preservation. Elves have that time, they can afford to wait patiently for their ends to come. Perhaps this is another difference between them.

Morwen

One of the most emotional pieces of Tolkien's work, without doubt is the parting of Morwen and Hurin. His statement may be interpreted in many ways; this is my thought.

She was unaffected, or least affected, by the will of Morgoth, though granted she had little direct part in the shaping of the fate of Beleriand. Could she have done more? Perhaps her pride had kept her out of Morgoth's way, is that wny he never bothered with her too much? She seemed to be more passive in her pride, content to sit in the ruins of her people's home, never stirring to positive action.

Thingol

He seems to be a bit unaffected by the experiences prior to this, but the could also have regressed or been influenced by other powers. The times of writing the drafts could have something to do with this, but there are other options to consider.

The effect of Greed, the Silmaril, or dragon-spell on the cursed gold.

Greed could bring out the worst in all of us, and it is not beyond reason that he was susceptible to it.

The Silmaril, and its fate, play a large part in the shaping of the history of Belereiand. Their theft got the ball rolling in the first place, setting the stage for realms outside Aman. Was it purely passive? I do not think so. It had its own curse, the Curse of Feanor on it. This could have propelled events in the direction that they took. Having the light of the Two Trees in it, could it have developed its own agency, similar to the Ring? Did it want anything?

Also, remember they were hallowed by Varda, so that no evil could handle them without pain. Did the Silmaril posess power to cause psychological distress as well, subtly influencing others, driving some mad? Did it want to get away from Thingol, while he was corrupted by dragon-spell?

Then you have the idea of a curse of greed on the dragon's gold. We had some discussion on the effects of dragon-spell, which I cannot seem to locate, but there was a lot of speculation on its power and effects.

Melian

Thingol, Luthien, and by extension Beren, seemed to be her only cares in Beleriand. These last of these ties disappeared after Thingol's death. From a purely selfish standpoint, can we blame her? What did she have left? All she did seemed to be for the benefit of these three, and their removal occured. Also, the reason that she took physical form and limited here powers, was Thingol. Later Luthien bound her to the Earth more tightly. Did the death of these loved ones, free her to assume her true form once more? I can see her in Lorien with Nienna and Olorin, finding a measure of solace.

Beren and Luthien's Progeny

Their fate was a bit surprising, but not totally disappointing to me. The deaths are tragic, but it only furthers the darkening that would deepen, just before the Eucotastrophe. Death and Loss play a large part in Tolkien's work, but there is always Hope and Life to come later. Morgoth is winning, the bad guys do sometimes, but there is still Hope. The Valar will come, urged on by Earendil, and Elwing plays her part well. In my mind, the tragedy only sharpens the joy of the triumph.

The Silmaril

I do not think that it was totally passive in its influence. It contained the Light of The Two Trees, powerful in itself. Did that power, grant it agency to act in a manner analogous to the Ring? Lots of meat for discussion here.

Sons of Feanor

It is a sad fate in our world, that those who begin strife, will not be the first to suffer for their mistakes. I think that the Sons of Feanor were under a sort of 'Divine Parole', as long as they walked the 'straight and narrow' they were OK, they could not escape the final fate, but could postpone it. When the did wrong, they were punished in a more expedient manner.
Maedhros, on a side note, really gets to me. He has been given a second chance, and takes it. He wants to do right, but is bound by the Oath of Feanor. Is this the Elven counterpart to Truin?

Final Thoughts

Well it is winding down in Beleriand now. Morgoth is winning, and it will take a miracle to stop him, and it does. All tis doom and gloom, only sets up for the Eucotastrophe that will come. I think that Tolkien has exhausted the strength of the Free Peoples, and they are no longer able to stand against Morgoth, They never were going to defeat him, that much was clear. I t was a long defeat, but its time is near. times are dark but light is coming.

Subject User Time
Silmarillion discussion, chapter 22: The Ruin of Doriath Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Jul 28 2013, 4:13pm
    An excellent summary of the chapter Faenoriel elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 28 2013, 5:00pm
        Women madly in love with men not so worthy of them? Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Jul 28 2013, 10:29pm
    Thoughts Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 28 2013, 6:57pm
    Ruin of Doriath: awesome questions Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 28 2013, 8:56pm
    Own answers, and some additional thoughts about the chapter Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Jul 28 2013, 10:13pm
        Responses... and more responses! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 29 2013, 12:15am
        Answers at last (part II) sador Send a private message to sador Aug 5 2013, 12:23pm
    Terrific CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 28 2013, 11:42pm
        Fëanorians, Fëanorians everywhere Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Jul 29 2013, 12:48pm
        fashionably late for some melian-bashing Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 5 2013, 4:57am
            Melian wasn't able to do enough to save Thingol and keep Doriath safe Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Aug 5 2013, 5:26am
                Thoughts. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 5 2013, 5:36am
                her presence +was+ effective Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 5 2013, 2:12pm
            That is actually an excellent point. sador Send a private message to sador Aug 5 2013, 8:10am
            All I can do is agree, agree, agree with you. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 5 2013, 2:53pm
                hey : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 5 2013, 3:14pm
                    Dan Brown using people as plot devices? Impossible! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 5 2013, 3:19pm
            Isn´t this a bit harsh? elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 5 2013, 7:30pm
                Just to clarify CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 8 2013, 9:27pm
                hallo : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 9 2013, 10:07pm
                    Hyberbole at it's most hyperbolic CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 11 2013, 6:41pm
                        Is hyperbole more hyperbolic than the Superbowl is superbolic? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 12 2013, 9:03am
                            Funny you should mention that. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 13 2013, 5:11am
                                O-o-ohhh, s-a-a-y can't you s-e-e-e… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 13 2013, 9:20am
            some other points elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 6 2013, 5:33am
    Maybe this should have been 3 chapters? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 29 2013, 1:38pm
    Wonderful summary and questions! Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 29 2013, 3:36pm
        "she was not conquered" noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 11:09am
        Silmarils and ladies noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 11:21am
            Well, I'd like to say Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 30 2013, 11:32am
                There would have to be several factors… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 12:13pm
                    Yes, you're right Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 30 2013, 1:22pm
                        Handing out Silmarils? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 1:38pm
                            *scornful laugh* Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 30 2013, 3:31pm
                                Maybe Melkor fed the Ethics Committee to Ungoliant? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 3:39pm
                                    No wonder the poor dear was still so hungry.// Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 30 2013, 3:43pm
                        Silmarils and marriage CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 2 2013, 6:17pm
                            I think it does, if it reflects inner need. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Aug 3 2013, 1:24am
    Discussion points Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 30 2013, 1:49am
    A few comments; answers to your questions will hopefully be on Sunday sador Send a private message to sador Aug 1 2013, 1:59pm
        I for one am eternally grateful for what CT gave us Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 1 2013, 2:24pm
    one of the best chapters IMO elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 4 2013, 11:18am
    Answers at last (part I) sador Send a private message to sador Aug 4 2013, 5:57pm
        Not the point of the book Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 4 2013, 6:51pm
            That's not what I've meant; I apologise sador Send a private message to sador Aug 4 2013, 7:27pm
                No problem! Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 4 2013, 8:11pm
                    Well, this is an example sador Send a private message to sador Aug 5 2013, 7:59am
                        Ah yes, I recall saying that Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 5 2013, 1:38pm

 
 
 

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