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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Hobbitus Ille
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 3:10pm

Post #1 of 50 (526 views)
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Hobbitus Ille Can't Post

Sometime back Brethil and I were talking and I decided to go ahead and get Hobbitus Ille (The Hobbit in Latin)

She reminded me in a PM as I had forgotten (busy busy at work and all) so I am going to start this thread. I will post a phrase from the book and you try and translate it (try not to use an online translator if you can it will be more fun!) if any of you also have a copy feel free to post lines as well!

I took four years of Latin in High School and four in college. I loved Latin (but Virgil can stay in history for all I care. The Aeneid in Latin was a total bore...Cicero on the other hand was awesome) Latin is a terrific language to learn, so much of the English and other Romance languages are based on the vocabulary and as with many languages words can carry very deep meaning.

Okay let's start with an easier to recognize one:

Trans Montes Nebulae frigore dissitos altas ad latebras ueteres specus descedamus adhinc, ante oritur dies,quasitum in maegicis, aureferis locis.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 3:15pm

Post #2 of 50 (307 views)
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Games!!!! Oh we loves games, precious...! [In reply to] Can't Post

This is such a great idea HS!!!!! CoolSmileCool

Am going to contemplate that phrase while feeding the birds...back later!!!!

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 3:17pm

Post #3 of 50 (288 views)
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I needed a reminder [In reply to] Can't Post

and thank you so much for that reminder Brethil. I bought it about 3 months ago or so and then forgot about it. Glad you gave me a little push! My mind isn't what it used to be LOL. Wink

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 3:29pm

Post #4 of 50 (296 views)
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A hint [In reply to] Can't Post

Discedamus

1st person plural verb. To go apart, scatter, disperse.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13

(This post was edited by Ham_Sammy on Jul 29 2013, 3:34pm)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 29 2013, 4:15pm

Post #5 of 50 (282 views)
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Ooh! The Latin Hobbit! [In reply to] Can't Post

I never took a course in Latin, but it's so much a part of so many languages! This should be fun!

Let's see: this looks like:
Far over the Misty Mountains cold
Through dungeons dark and caverns old
We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold.

Or something like that...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






Werde Spinner
Rohan


Jul 29 2013, 4:27pm

Post #6 of 50 (293 views)
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I officially love this thread. [In reply to] Can't Post

Have been meaning to get Hobbitus Ille for myself for a while now; have not done so yet. Must go write myself a note!!

Took three years of Latin in high school, and must agree that Cicero is awesome. Latin is a particular favorite of mine; I just really love the sound of it.

Oh, the quote? Laugh 'Trans Montes Nebulae' gave it away!

I'm not sure whether you want a literal translation or the exact quote, so here's a mishmash:

'Across the mountains of cold mist, to dungeons deep and caverns old, we must scatter away, before the rising of the day, to seek (?) the location of the enchanted gold.'

That was a terrible translation. It was fun, though.

Does Hobbitus Ille have punctuation marks? I note only the one comma in the passage. Latin can be a headache when it is reproduced faithfully without spaces or punctuation..

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 5:59pm

Post #7 of 50 (273 views)
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Good one! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes indeed!

Now based on the latin words contained therein here are some English words of the day. I like how languages like Latin convey in one word "Discedamus" meaning "we should or must scatter afar or away" what takes English several words to get across.

Aurify -- To make golden (based on the latin word here "auriferis". Or the English noun: "aurification"

Veteran - Based on the latin word here ueteres. The "u" in latin is actually prounounced as a "v" when followed by a vowel. Read "Veteres". Now that makes sense right? I'll put up another line in awhile.

As to punctuation. The words are separated and the book does faithfully print it as it is in the English Language Hobbit. So yes there is punctuation. including periods, commas and the like.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13

(This post was edited by Ham_Sammy on Jul 29 2013, 6:04pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 6:22pm

Post #8 of 50 (261 views)
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Just back in from watering and yard work... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I see some clever Sibs got the quote in!

What an iconic saying though...love the tone of it in Latin. Can you hear their deep Dwarven voices singing it? I can! Beautiful thought! Especially since I know they followed old world chorales for a model (read that somewhere!)

AWESOME fun HS!!!!! CoolSmileCool

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 6:25pm

Post #9 of 50 (262 views)
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As have posted at least once before about my Latin skills - [In reply to] Can't Post

...in all those years of Latin I remember one sentence. Spectate, Agricolae mortae! (Look! Dead farmers!) Why this sticks with me I cannot say. Very, very narrow frame of use. BlushCrazy

Hobbit phrases will be much better.

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 6:42pm

Post #10 of 50 (275 views)
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Another [In reply to] Can't Post

"QUI SUNT ISTI MISELLI HOMINES"? Gobelinus Magnus Inquit. "Nani sunt, et iste"! unus agitator inquit, catenam Bilbonis trahens ut ille in genua decidat.

You may have to look at an online dictionary (Latin) for some of these words. A bit more of a challenge than the first.

Hint: Nani: Latin for dwarf.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 6:54pm

Post #11 of 50 (244 views)
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haha! [In reply to] Can't Post

Brethil good one. Dead farmers indeed. too funny

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 7:24pm

Post #12 of 50 (253 views)
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A stab at it [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it 'Who are these miserable persons?' asked the Great Goblin. And Bilbo falling on his knees? genua?)

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 7:38pm

Post #13 of 50 (282 views)
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Ding ding ding ding ding [In reply to] Can't Post

We have a winner! Good job Brethil!

English word -- Genuflect.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 8:03pm

Post #14 of 50 (259 views)
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.. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Et sine cardinibus, sine tecto, clauibus arca; thesauras sed iam celatur et aureus intus.......

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 29 2013, 9:17pm

Post #15 of 50 (234 views)
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I think you were just imagining Thorin singing this HS!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Got the first two- without cheating and looking at the others' replies. Bit stuck on the last one- "And without something or other, without a ?roof"- ugh it's getting late here (10:15 pm)- that's my excuse anywayWink


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to here from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 9:56pm

Post #16 of 50 (229 views)
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It helps when one already knows the story so well ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't read or speak Latin, but I have enough Spanish and enough of a scientific background to give me the clues I needed. "Montes Nebulae" got me started:

Far over the Misty Mountains old,
Through dungeons deep and caverns cold,
We must away e'er break of day
To seek our pale enchanted gold.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 10:26pm

Post #17 of 50 (222 views)
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You're kind of warm... [In reply to] Can't Post

Kind of getting warm..warmer. Keep going! You can do it! Bust out the Latin dictionary!

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 11:06pm

Post #18 of 50 (223 views)
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Ooo! Ooo! (pick me!) [In reply to] Can't Post

Et sine cardinibus, sine tecto, clauibus arca; thesauras sed iam celatur et aureus intus


Just got a breakthrough looking at it : (I hope)

it could be: "a box without hinges, key or lid, golden treasure inside is hid"

Aureus (golden) and tecto (cover-ing ie lid). And it is paced like a riddle.





The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Jul 29 2013, 11:18pm

Post #19 of 50 (224 views)
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Ah! That was proper MCDXX, that was! [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't wait to find out how they translate "Tra-la-la-lally".




Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2013, 11:51pm

Post #20 of 50 (219 views)
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Good guess Brethil and a Spanish connection [In reply to] Can't Post

Hinges: Cardinibus
LId or top: Tecto
Keys: Clauibus

Interesting note. Clauibus is from the latin word Claves. Keys. The Spanish word for Key is llaves.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 30 2013, 12:05am

Post #21 of 50 (224 views)
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I agree - let's see that soon! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 30 2013, 12:17am

Post #22 of 50 (208 views)
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Whee! Thanks HS! [In reply to] Can't Post

The auditory similarity between claves and llaves is neat.

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 30 2013, 2:23pm

Post #23 of 50 (205 views)
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This one is easily recognizable [In reply to] Can't Post

and just terrific in Latin: Here goes:

Aranea uestusta pigra,
in arbore dedecens fila!
non uides me, obesa!
Arachnae! Arachnae!
desiste, desiste,
nunc nere, atque me vistiga!

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jul 31 2013, 4:27am

Post #24 of 50 (168 views)
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Never took Latin... [In reply to] Can't Post

But as you mention, the Romance languages came from it, and I did take a lot of French. :) There are a couple of words I can't guess though. (Nani would not have been one - its "nain" in French).

QUI SUNT ISTI MISELLI HOMINES"? Gobelinus Magnus Inquit. "Nani sunt, et iste"! unus agitator inquit, catenam Bilbonis trahens ut ille in genua decidat.

"WHO ARE THESE (?) MEN?" the Great Goblin said. "They are Dwarves, and this!" one (?) said, dragging Bilbo by the arm so that he fell to his knees.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 31 2013, 4:31am

Post #25 of 50 (176 views)
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Spider insults? This is great [In reply to] Can't Post

It sounds like Bilbo yelling at the spiders - in the trees (arbore)

Aranea I think is spider (although Arachnae! sounds like it - is that "attercop" somehow translated into Latin as a spider insult?) as well as obesa (fat)

Desiste is "stop" and 'vistiga' can to be related to visage as in 'seen'


Aranea uestusta pigra,
in arbore dedecens fila!
non uides me, obesa!
Arachnae! Arachnae!
desiste, desiste,
nunc nere, atque me vistiga!


The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!








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