Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion discussion, chapter 22: The Ruin of Doriath
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 28 2013, 4:13pm

Post #1 of 49 (853 views)
Shortcut
Silmarillion discussion, chapter 22: The Ruin of Doriath Can't Post

INTRODUCTION

Welcome to discuss the chapter ”The Ruin of Doriath”! And by the Valar, isn't there much to talk about.

This chapter is like a knot or a crossroads that ends many earlier tales and gives birth to new ones – though they too are stories of ending and dying. The fates of the three great hidden Elven realms – Doriath, Nargothrond and Gondolin – are finally all deeply intervowen at the same time, here at the end of their past glory. Also many characters come to their end here.

Because this chapter includes so much of wrapping up of old plot threads, it's unsurprising it was always a difficult one both for Tolkien and for Christopher. Tolkien never found a satisfying way to end the Doriath mythos. Christopher inherited the woe, and tried to find a solution by writing what amounts to a story that is actually invented by him, not by his father. It includes elements from the various different plot ideas Tolkien came up with during the years. Yet in the end, Christopher came to regret his choices.

CHAPTER SUMMARY

”The Ruin of Doriath” can be divided into three parts.

1) After the death of his children, Morgoth releases Húrin. Despite now being free, he is assumed to be a thrall of the Dark Lord, and is avoided by Elves and Men, further enbittering him. He wants to see Turgon and calls for him by the mountains of Gondolin, but Turgon refuses to let him in before it's too late and he's already gone. However, because of Húrin's words, Morgoth finds out the location of Gondolin, which was his original purpose. Húrin then goes to the Stone of the Hapless, meets Morwen there and holds her as she dies. He spares her from the knowledge of how their children died. Next Húrin goes to the empty Nargothrod, where he kills Mîm for betraying Túrin, and takes from the loot Nauglamír, a necklace made by Dwarves for Finrod. He enters then Doriath and accuses Thingol of the sad fate of his family. Melian manages to break the spell of bitterness put on him by Morgoth, Húrin comes to his senses and leaves to die alone, apparently by drowning himself in the sea. The Nauglamír is left to Thingol.
2) Thingol asks Dwarven smiths who regularly come to Doriath for work to set the Silmaril of Beren into the Nauglamír. Point is made of the Nauglamír being the creates work of the Dwarves, and Silmarils the greatest works made by Elves. But the Dwarves start to lust for the Silmaril themselves, set it in the Nauglamír and then claim Nauglamír belongs to them and not for Thingol. This causes Thingol to insult them in an arrogant manner and to threaten to drive them away with no payment at all. Angered, the Dwarves kill Thingol inside the smithery and try to run away with the jewel. Only two make it to the Dwarven city of Nogrod, and the Silmaril remains in Doriath. Yet Melian mourns for Thingol and somehow knows farewell with Thingol means farewell with Doriath. She then leaves, and with that, Doriath is left unprotected. The surviving Dwarves claim in Nogrod Thingol intended to betray them, causing the Dwarves to want for revenge. A Dwarven army is then set and it attacks Doriath, causing much destruction and death, and they take the Silmaril with them.
3) When Beren hears what has happened, he takes greenelves with him and destroys the Dwarven army heading back home with some help from the Ents. He also takes the Silmaril set in the Nauglamír, which is then woren by Lúthien. This sight is the most beautiful ever seen east of the Sea, and causes the land in which they live to also be beautiful and blessed ever since. However, it also shortens their mortal life span. We're told they now have a son Dior, who in turns have three children; twins Eluréd and Elurín, and daughter, Elwing. Dior and his family move to Doriath, where Dior becomes the new king intending to renew the kingdom back to its past glory. After some time a messenger brings him the Silmaril worn by Lúthien, and he knows his parents have died. But the Sons of Fëanor learn this too, and while they didn't dare to make demands to Lúthien, they send word to Dior, telling him to return the stone. Dior refuses, for the memory of the sufferings of his parents, and out of pride. Celegorm then convinves his brothers to use force. The brothers then attack by surprise. In the ensuing battle Dior and his wife are killed and the kingdom finally destroyed. Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin die too, and Celegorm's servant avenge by leaving Eluréd and Elurín to starve in the forest, which Maedhros regrets and tries to find them, to no avail. But Elwing manages to escape and to take the Silmaril with her. She and the other survivors flee to the Mouth of Sirion by the sea, where they will later be joined by the surivors of Gondolin.

THE BIRTH OF THE CHAPTER

Numerous parts of this chapter were never given final form by Tolkien, and instead exist only in contradicting drafts. Here are the sources which Christopher used to write this chapter:

1)The Quenta, a version of the Quenta Silmarillion from the year 1930. This is the last fully written account of the incidents of this chapter. In the Quenta, Húrin travels with some outlaws to Nargothrod, where the outlaws kill Mîm against Húrin's wishes. Mîm curses the treasures of Nargothrod, but Húrin goes to Doriath to tell about it, and the Elves carry the gold to Doriath. Húrin mocks Thingol and leaves. The cursed gold awake greed in Thingol. He calls Dwarves from Nogrod and Belegost to make a necklace from it in which he could carry the Silmaril. The Dwarves start to lust both for the treasure and the Silmaril, but Thingol refuses to pay them their reward. A fight ensues, and part of the Dwarves are killed, part are drive away empty handed. The Dwarves seek for help from Nogrod and Belegost, and manage to secretly to return to Doriath with help from Elves who have fallen under the lure of the treasure. They ambush Thingol who is only travelling with a small hunting party and kill him. They also attack and loot Menegroth, but cannot touch Melian. She warns Beren, who with greenelves destroy the Dwarven army on its return journey. The treasure is buried in the river Adurant, and Lúthien takes the Nauglamír with the Silmaril. Melian leaves to Valinor.
2)The Tale of Years, second version, years 1951-1952. A chronology used by Tolkien to write the annals of the First Age. Unfortunaly I don't know any place on the Net where it would be available in English, and quoting it in entierity would be too much.
3)The Wanderings of Húrin, from the late 1950's. It tells of Húrin's deeds after being released from Angband, but ends before he arrives to Nargothrod. It's very long and has subplots and elements abandoned by Christopher; only parts of it were used. You can read a synopsis here: http://tolkiengateway.net/...erings_of_H%C3%BArin
4)Of Galadriel and Celeborn, written some time after LotR. It is succested that only Dwarves from Nogrod attacked Doriath, and that the returning Dwarves were destroyed by Caranthir instead of Beren. In the Book of the Lost Tales a version is given where the Dwarves of Belegost arecertainly considered innocent, and where the mention of Caranthir is omitted.
5)A note apprently from the late 50s commenst on the impossibility of a Dwarven army entering the Girdle of Melian: 'Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.'
6)A letter from 1963. According to it Beren stopped the returning Dwarven army, but because he had no army, he had to receive help from the ents.
7)Tolkien's comments for feedback he had received for the Wanderings of Húrin, year 1966. He tells how the story of Húrin would continue after its cut short at the end of the Wanderings: Húrin takes the outlaws with him to Nargothrod, kills Mìm and takes control of the dragon gold.

In the end Christopher decided to write the story of this chapter himself. Here he has step over the boundaries of purely editorial interest, and taken the role of storywriter. The outlaws are entirely left out, as is the idea of the whole cursed gold of Nargothrod being taken to Doriath. The reason for this is Christopher felt it wouldn't flow well with the style of the rest of the published Silmarillion. The Nauglamír now already exists, and is a great work of art by Dwarves. Thingol's death now takes place at the argument he had with the Dwarven smiths in Menegroth. Melian leaves and this allows for the Dwarf army to attack the now vulnerable kingdom. Story elements are taken from this source and that; the Dwarves of Belegost are indeed innocent, both the Elves of Ossiriand and the Ents help Beren, Caranthir has nothing to do with this all...

Yet Christopher isn't really satisfied with what he did, even calling it a mistake. To quote the man himself: This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.

ALL THINGS MUST COME TO AN END

Stories that finally end in this chapter:

The Doriath saga
The tale of Húrin's family
The story of the Petty-dwarves
Last time Nargothrod has significance in the Elven fates

Characters that die in this chapter

Morwen
Mìm
Húrin
Thingol
Melian figuratively dies, as she leaves the story
Mablung
Lúthien
Beren
Dior
Nimloth
Eluréd (?)
Elurín (?)
Celegorm
Curufin
Caranthir

Stories that are begun in this chapter

The Fall of Gondolin
The Voyage of Eärendil
The hatred and mistrust between Elves and Dwarves

Special mention goes to Elwing, for managing to be a character introduced in this chapter of woe, and live after its end.

QUESTIONS:

1) Should this chapter be seen as a canonical part of the Middle-Earth mythos, especially the parts which were invented by Christopher and not by Tolkien himself? Are you satisfied with Christopher's choices? How would you have written this part?
2) How do you feel about Húrin's last actions? In the end his long resistance against Morgoth was in vain, and against his wishes he ends up revealing the location of Gondolin to Morgoth. Did his family suffer for nothing because of this last failure? Did he have the right to kill Mìm?
3) What about the last parting of Húrin and Morwen? Isn't this Tolkien at his most touching? So much is left unsaid, so much is understood. But what Húrin ment by saying ”she was not conquered”?
4) How satisfied are you with the death of Thingol at the hands of the Dwarven smiths he has arrogantly mocked? In the Narn i Hín Húrin it almost seems like Thingol has learned his aespo about racism and arrogance, but here we go again.
5) Are you dissapointed with Melian for abandoning Doriath to its fate, at such a time? Do you understand her decision to leave to Valinor to mourn her sorrows?
6) Beren was Tolkien's Author Insert Character, Lúthien Edith's. In this context, do you find it surprising Tolkien gave their fictional children and grandchildren such a gruesome end? And that Dior, their fictional son, is given so little page time he hardly exists as a character?
7) What about the Silmaril here? Is it an omnious or a benefical factor, or does it simply reflect the good or evil of its carrier? Is Lúthien the only one pure enough to carry it, and is this because she's free of lowly desires that could be tempted by the beauty of the Silmaril? Does the Silmaril in this respect function like the Ring does – it can only use the darkness inside yourself – and like Nagûl have power only over those who aren't courageous?
8) While the Noldorin princes die left and right, the Sons of Fëanor have survived this far. Why? Was it a conincidence, or is there something of a fate that they should die not in a battle against evil, but while fighting other Elves? Caranthir, Celegorm and Curufin die while attacking Doriath, Amrod and Amras die while attacking the Mouth of Sirion later on. The Second and Third Kinslaying claim the lives of those most guilty of the First Kinslaying?
9) The days of glory of the First Age are almost over. Which kingdom was your favorite, and whose fate you feel most bad about? Did the Elves and Men ever have a chance, or could this sad end have been avoided had their own foolishness prevented them from co-operating?
10) The beginning of the tale of woe of the Dwarves vs Elves conflict! Even previously the Elves were haughty towards the Dwarves – but accepted their services – and the Dwarves apparently were jealous of the Elves. Who is more right, or is there anyone who's right or wrong, and is it only a sad story of misunderstandings and prejudices?
11) Overall, which scene, happening or death made you saddest (or do you feel anything, you soulless monster)?

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jul 28 2013, 4:16pm)


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 28 2013, 5:00pm

Post #2 of 49 (490 views)
Shortcut
An excellent summary of the chapter Faenoriel [In reply to] Can't Post

and a number of interesting questions
1) I think that this chapter feels in keeping with the rest of the story. It is a little glossed over and short for such major events, but, then again so was the Nirnaeth. As for whether it is canon or not I guess depends how closely one defines "canon". Most of it seems to have been derived from JRRT's drafts, but some obviously isn't. In terms of the way it flows with the rest, it is near enough to canon for me, but I understand it might not be for others.
2+3) Hurin- whichever way you look at it, the story is tragic- did Hurin really deserve all that befalls him?- no. His family did suffer and one cannot really see any silver lining. However, I would argue that not all of this is due to Hurin's actions. The behaviour of Turin and the influence of Morgoth via Glaurung are huge factors and I think that influence would have been there, regardless of whether Hurin succumbed to Morgoth's wishes or not. It is touching that Morwen does not really reproach Hurin and he spares her the knowledge of their children's story. I think referring to Morwen as being "unconquered" probably means that she was the only member of the family who was not directly influenced by Morgoth and/or Glaurung.
4) Thingol's death- like you say- "here we go again" this guy never learns!! He seems to have overcome a lot of his shortcomings in the previous chapter, but here he goes back to his ways of old. It is hardly surprising that the dwarves lose all patience and kill him- although I don't condone this. It also shows how his willful blindness about other races has been to his detriment. Surely he should have been able to predict how very much the Silmaril would be coveted by the Dwarves? Especially set in a beautiful necklace of their own craft! If he had understood the nature of dwarves better, he, hopefully, would not have made this fundamental error! I cannot say that I feel much sympathy for Thingol personally, when he is killed, but it is a calamity for his people and for Doriath.
5) Melian- I'm not surprised at her leaving, but I am disappointed. But then I find the whole Melian/Thingol relationship a bit off-kilter. Why was she so taken with him that she took incarnate form and married him? He may have been handsome, but his character and personality leave much to be desired. Or was he not that arrogant until he married Melian and was a bit too proud of having a Maia as his wife, even though he ignored her wisdom most of the time? How much would good looks influence a Maia anyway? Or maybe it was just that Melian saw marrying Thingol as her destiny? Something which had to be done, so has to give hope for the future of M-e and fulfil Eru's intentions ultimately?

I'll be back later (hopefully) to give my answers to the rest of the questions.Thanks for starting a stimulating discussion!


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 28 2013, 6:57pm

Post #3 of 49 (484 views)
Shortcut
Thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 This seems to be the beginning of the end for Beleriand. The epic land of gods , noble men, dwarves, seems to be ripening for the final act. Morgoth is winning and has succeeded in subverting many of his enemies. They can't go toe to toe with him,(Fingolfin made a good effort) and he was contained in Angband by their arms. The success he seems to make is in the disunity of the Free Peoples, and in their internal strife.

I think that Tolkien was beginning to see the end of this time and place, coming. ME is about to take over, and Morgoth, the unbeatable foe, will be dealt with. I see no other logical end. The seeds of disruption that had been sown by Morgoth ,had ripened and the Elves,Men, and Dwarves could no longer unite. Combined with the disaster of the Nirneath Arnoediad, this would have made Beleriand a dangerous place. Only the hidden kingdoms stood. The Valar HAD to step in, IMHO, in order to rid the world of Morgoth, Balrogs, and the Dragons. I don't see a way for the Free People to ever come together in the land of Beleriand, and I think that the prejudice and hatred sown, would only turn it into a civil war zone.

In regards to the published vs unfinished story of Doriath and Hurin, I don't think that there is too much of a difference. Hurin is let go, his adventures edited out of the final version, like the movies dealt with the scenes of Bombadil and he barrow downs. The additional info can act as exposition of the ways of the Edain, standing separately.

He comes to Doriath with news of/actual treasure, and it is brought to Doriath in some way.

The only major difference I find is in he fate of Hurin. I don't think that he could have found happiness in the world, and I think the end Christopher gave him was pretty tasteful. Did Tolkien even give his fate???

Then we go back to Doriath, Thingol is affected by the treasure, whether dragon-spell, greed, or the curse of the Oath of Feanor on the Silmaril. He commissions the Dwarves to set it in a piece of jewelry, Nauglamir or cursed gold, either way giving motive for their greed. Whether it was greed, the Silmaril, dragon-spell, the claim of the Nauglamir, it is irrelevant, they clearly wanted it.

Thingol denies their payment,(pretty gutsy in his own kingdom while surrounded by Dwarves. This part was a bit out there, but picture some guards and that Dwarves attacked them with hammers and tongs, and it comes out alright.)

Thingol then dies, whether in ambush while hunting( because hey did not wan. To attack him at their forges), in the forge rooms of the dwarves, or in a war outside the Girdle of Melian. It really doesn't matter in the light of after effects.

A note: if the Dwarves were in the Girdle they could stay silent and continue to work inside, exacting their revenge later.

After Thingol dies, Melain leaves, no doubt here on this point. This it leaves Doriath open to the Dwarves.

The Elves and Dwarves fight and the Elves are worsted,(perhaps the Girdle was relied upon too much for protection?)

The Silmaril gets to Luthien and Beren, and they lead an army of Elves to destroy them with help from the Ents.(What have they been doing I wonder?) I do not think that the aid of the Green elves was too much of a stretch, they befriended Thingol after they came into Beleriand.

Luthien is immune to any ill effects from the Silmaril/necklace. I would think that all of her suffering would give her some pretty strong morality, inner strength and selflessness to overcome any curse/spell on it. Who would have the gut to demand anything from her? That would be like stealing from Mother Teresa!!

After they die, problems start. Dior, possibly affected by the curse/greed/dragon-spell, has the ilk to deny the Silmaril to the sons of Feanor. The loose cannons go off, and another Kinslaying occurs. Horrible things follow, but Elwing and a few friends escape and hide at the Sirion's mouth/

I think that the Published Sil is more of an overview really. A history book with stories that you need to study separately to fully grasp. The HoME can give us this, and I don't think that there are too many loose ends.

I like the possibility of the dragons-spell, the curse of Hurin, or the fate of the Silmarils playing into the motivation of the characters. Like real history, it is hard to account for all if the factors involved. It is the setup for the story of Earendil in these chapters, I believe, that guides the direction of the next few tales.

The wandering of Hurin is a great look into the ways of the Edain, and it could have been an attempt to add some backstory and culture to the men of the First age. I can be added to the CoH story without issue, but I think that because of the ambiguous ending ,it was left out. Also it was the story of the CHILDREN of Hurin, so their story really ended anyway, though the continued version in the Wanderings was nice.All in all, Christopher did a pretty good job giving closure to the tale as it stood.

Anybody know what he thought that the better version would would look like?

More thoughts later........


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 28 2013, 8:56pm

Post #4 of 49 (482 views)
Shortcut
Ruin of Doriath: awesome questions [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Welcome to discuss the chapter ”The Ruin of Doriath”! And by the Valar, isn't there much to talk about. Great chapter breakdown Faenorial, thanks!

1) Should this chapter be seen as a canonical part of the Middle-Earth mythos, especially the parts which were invented by Christopher and not by Tolkien himself? Are you satisfied with Christopher's choices? How would you have written this part? I don't know enough about the evolution to answer I'm afraid. But its an intriguing question for those who do.
2) How do you feel about Húrin's last actions? In the end his long resistance against Morgoth was in vain, and against his wishes he ends up revealing the location of Gondolin to Morgoth. Did his family suffer for nothing because of this last failure? Did he have the right to kill Mìm? So true, his unintentional giving away of Gondolin must have pained him greatly. But it was inevitable I think, and foreseen by Ulmo - this poor Man was simply the dupe here. His family did suffer - so much - but no, not for nothing. Idril met Tuor, Earandil was born and they got safely away, so the purpose of Gondolin was fulfilled which it could not have been had it fallen sooner. I do think he had the right to enact justice on Mim. It was 'sort of' unintentional that Mim betrayed Turin, but not entirely. Having seen it from afar and been helpless, I can hardly blame poor Hurin for taking action, even though it is in hot blood.
3) What about the last parting of Húrin and Morwen? Isn't this Tolkien at his most touching? So much is left unsaid, so much is understood. But what Húrin ment by saying ”she was not conquered”? Very much so. It seems that as her face relaxes in death is when he thinks that - maybe it says that her face shows her fea as still being strong, and steady, and was not 'conquered' by the marring of Morgorth. Thus she can go safely to her fate beyond death?
4) How satisfied are you with the death of Thingol at the hands of the Dwarven smiths he has arrogantly mocked? In the Narn i Hín Húrin it almost seems like Thingol has learned his aespo about racism and arrogance, but here we go again. It does - he came so far: even valuing aiding and loving Men. But the lust for the Silmaril seems to have eaten away at his judgment again, and pushed him into folly. Between not recognizing the threat, valuing his life grater than that of any jewel and sealing his own fate by abusing the Dwarves all are a trio of Thousand Ways to Die tales.
5) Are you dissapointed with Melian for abandoning Doriath to its fate, at such a time? Do you understand her decision to leave to Valinor to mourn her sorrows? I honestly think she saw that end from the beginning and knew it would come some day. From the way the published Sil is written, it appears that by having Thingol as her mate, and being as one of the Firstborn gave her the powers that she had - but with the loss of her mate, her anchor, that all shifts away from her hand and her power is lost. Having diminished already, I suppose she is relatively weak, and thus does not wish to stay in Arda in that state. I think being a Queen of great power in her own realm was a huge part of Melian's identity.
6) Beren was Tolkien's Author Insert Character, Lúthien Edith's. In this context, do you find it surprising Tolkien gave their fictional children and grandchildren such a gruesome end? And that Dior, their fictional son, is given so little page time he hardly exists as a character? Well perhaps that is part of Christopher's editorial decisions? And his feeling would be a bit different?
7) What about the Silmaril here? Is it an omnious or a benefical factor, or does it simply reflect the good or evil of its carrier? Is Lúthien the only one pure enough to carry it, and is this because she's free of lowly desires that could be tempted by the beauty of the Silmaril? Does the Silmaril in this respect function like the Ring does – it can only use the darkness inside yourself – and like Nagûl have power only over those who aren't courageous? I do believe it is agencyless, a cipher for the intent of the bearer. I think it isn't the Silmaril itself that acts necessarily as it is a mirror, showing up one's motives. In Luthien it would mirror joy with her life, and what she had, and therefore a lack of covetousness for anything.
8) While the Noldorin princes die left and right, the Sons of Fëanor have survived this far. Why? Was it a conincidence, or is there something of a fate that they should die not in a battle against evil, but while fighting other Elves? Caranthir, Celegorm and Curufin die while attacking Doriath, Amrod and Amras die while attacking the Mouth of Sirion later on. The Second and Third Kinslaying claim the lives of those most guilty of the First Kinslaying? Fantastic connection here Faenoriel! It seems like the curse at work, as translated as the foresight of Mandos. While fighting evil they are in their right element I suppose; yet during the Kinslayings they are not.
9) The days of glory of the First Age are almost over. Which kingdom was your favorite, and whose fate you feel most bad about? Did the Elves and Men ever have a chance, or could this sad end have been avoided had their own foolishness prevented them from co-operating? I love the people of Haleth, in Brethil. In terms of Kingdoms it is definitely Gondolin: I like Turgon so much, and it seems like such a special place, hidden in the mountains. As for the sadness, I think it had to happen in a way for Tuor to come to Gondolin.
10) The beginning of the tale of woe of the Dwarves vs Elves conflict! Even previously the Elves were haughty towards the Dwarves – but accepted their services – and the Dwarves apparently were jealous of the Elves. Who is more right, or is there anyone who's right or wrong, and is it only a sad story of misunderstandings and prejudices? Poor understandings and two very different cultures. I have a soft spot of course for Dwarves because of their rough start, which they did not ask for.
11) Overall, which scene, happening or death made you saddest (or do you feel anything, you soulless monster)? Hurin, walking like a dead man, all the long way to the Sea, all alone. It says no one wanted to look upon his face: I can only imagine the grief written there. A sad life and hopefully peace in death.


The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 28 2013, 10:13pm

Post #5 of 49 (487 views)
Shortcut
Own answers, and some additional thoughts about the chapter [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1) Should this chapter be seen as a canonical part of the Middle-Earth mythos, especially the parts which were invented by Christopher and not by Tolkien himself? Are you satisfied with Christopher's choices? How would you have written this part?
The question of canon is always tricky one in the Legendarium. Personally I've moved past believing there exists any one single Middle-Earth canon, outside the books which Tolkien published himself during his life time. In all matters Silmarillionian, I'd say diversity is richness. But even still, I'd prefer to think Thingol died outside on a hunting trip, or while in fight. This send-off leaves a bac taste and is very anti-climatic, almost comedic for such an important character. One thing to remember here is that the scene where Thingol mocks the Dwarves is written very early, back in the 1930's, when he was still called Tinwelint and was a very different character. Had Tolkien rewritten the scene post-LotR, it might have taken another shape.
2) How do you feel about Húrin's last actions? In the end his long resistance against Morgoth was in vain, and against his wishes he ends up revealing the location of Gondolin to Morgoth. Did his family suffer for nothing because of this last failure? Did he have the right to kill Mìm?
It's very frustrating to know Húrin gave up the location of Gondolin in the end, even if it wasn't his fault. Just as it's frustrating to know Turgon didn't first let him in because he suspected Húrin had given in, and then that he was too late. This seems to be the nature of much tragedy in Middle-Earth; miscommunication and misunderstandings, and not trusting each other.
3) What about the last parting of Húrin and Morwen? Isn't this Tolkien at his most touching? So much is left unsaid, so much is understood. But what Húrin ment by saying ”she was not conquered”?
Morwen's death is one of my favorite pieces ever written by Tolkien. Such strenght of emotion expressed with such subtlety.
4) How satisfied are you with the death of Thingol at the hands of the Dwarven smiths he has arrogantly mocked? In the Narn i Hín Húrin it almost seems like Thingol has learned his aespo about racism and arrogance, but here we go again.
*aesop, not aespo. Anyway, as I said with answer 1, this feels very unsatisfying. While miscommunication is one common cause for tragedy in Middle-Earth, the inability to learn from your mistakes seems to be another. Tolkien really liked his themes of humbleness, patience and wish to understand instead of control.
5) Are you dissapointed with Melian for abandoning Doriath to its fate, at such a time? Do you understand her decision to leave to Valinor to mourn her sorrows?
Sorry to say, but yes, yes I am dissapointed with her. It does seem like she just abandons the people who have taken shelter under her wing because she herself is sad. Perhaps this is unfair of me, but then again, if she hadn't left, her grandchildren and grand-grandchildren wouldn't have died either.
6) Beren was Tolkien's Author Insert Character, Lúthien Edith's. In this context, do you find it surprising Tolkien gave their fictional children and grandchildren such a gruesome end? And that Dior, their fictional son, is given so little page time he hardly exists as a character?
Very curious about this one. Why is Dior given such a small role? There doesn't seem to be much inspiration behind this character, he's just a generic Elven lord with all the basic qualities. Even more curious is the death of the twin sons. Why such fate, Tolkien? And did Tolkien really think they starved to death, or did he in his mind play with a thought that somehow they were saved by someone, and lived into adulthood far away from the tumultous Noldorin politics? If anything, the fate of this family proves that Tolkien didn't let the good guys win and bad guys die, but everyone can and will bite the dust.
7) What about the Silmaril here? Is it an omnious or a benefical factor, or does it simply reflect the good or evil of its carrier? Is Lúthien the only one pure enough to carry it, and is this because she's free of lowly desires that could be tempted by the beauty of the Silmaril? Does the Silmaril in this respect function like the Ring does – it can only use the darkness inside yourself – and like Nagûl have power only over those who aren't courageous?
I've learned to like Lúthien more than I did before... but my God, here she truly annoys me. She's so above everyone and everything it at points gets nauseatic. Perhaps we should allow Tolkien worshipping his wife figure...
8) While the Noldorin princes die left and right, the Sons of Fëanor have survived this far. Why? Was it a conincidence, or is there something of a fate that they should die not in a battle against evil, but while fighting other Elves? Caranthir, Celegorm and Curufin die while attacking Doriath, Amrod and Amras die while attacking the Mouth of Sirion later on. The Second and Third Kinslaying claim the lives of those most guilty of the First Kinslaying?
You die as you live... and only as you die you learn what you truly are as a person. I don't know if there was any fate keeping the Sons alive until dying by the hands of other Elves... but there's certainly cruel irony there.
9) The days of glory of the First Age are almost over. Which kingdom was your favorite, and whose fate you feel most bad about? Did the Elves and Men ever have a chance, or could this sad end have been avoided had their own foolishness prevented them from co-operating?
Well, a biased fangirl is biased. But my heart is given to the House of Fëanor, so naturally I love Himring the best. But it's sad to see all these great kingdoms come to their ruin. At the beginning of the Beleriandic aventures it seemed as if they might achieve something, as if there was a chance... only for them to be absolutely stomped to the ground one by one. It reminds of the dark shadow of the Thrid Reich, and how it engulfed other nations country by country, until there were only a few havens of freedom left in Europe. That same sense of finality and helplessness.
10) The beginning of the tale of woe of the Dwarves vs Elves conflict! Even previously the Elves were haughty towards the Dwarves – but accepted their services – and the Dwarves apparently were jealous of the Elves. Who is more right, or is there anyone who's right or wrong, and is it only a sad story of misunderstandings and prejudices?
Truth to be told, I tend to side with the Dwarves, just because the stories are always written from the point of view of the Elves, and because the Dwarves have had it rougher, and without their own fault. Yet like so often in real ethnic conflicts, there is no one side with would be utterly wrong and one side to be completly right.
11) Overall, which scene, happening or death made you saddest (or do you feel anything, you soulless monster)?[
Húrin embracing the dying Morwen on the grave of their children. Tears, tears everywhere. Also the twin sons being left in the forest (their parents have just died, too), and then Maedhros in vain trying to find them is very powerful image.


Ok, some thoughts more - forgot to put these in the OP.

What power is protecting the grave of Túrin, Niënor and Morwen? Why can't Morwen fell the stone, and why is it left over waters after Beleriand sinks? Are the Valar at work - in which case it must be Ulmo - or is it Eru himself? It's very touching to think in the later ages, out in the sea there's an island, and on the island is this ancient gravestone for the fated family.

Húrin commits suicide, just like his children. For Tolkien as a Catholic, this must have been extra awful. Just goes its way to show how completly over Húrin's life was. One wonders if there could have been any help. any healing for him. Could Melian have helped him? Just speaking to her freed him from Morgoth's lies.

Lots of characters die in this chapter that we never really got to know. Mablung, for instance. The reader is sort of hinted that there might be great tales to hear about a great personality, but he just never gets the limelight. Dior I've already mentioned... also, what's going on with Dior being called "the Fair"? Because there's another character with that ephitath... Celegorm!

This chapter is very relevant for the Hobbit, because when the Company enters Mirkwood, the ancient feud carried by the characters is inherited from this chapter. Indeed if we believe Thranduil started out as a Thingol stand-in, it becomes ever more meaningfull!

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 28 2013, 10:29pm

Post #6 of 49 (470 views)
Shortcut
Women madly in love with men not so worthy of them? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
4) Thingol's death- like you say- "here we go again" this guy never learns!! He seems to have overcome a lot of his shortcomings in the previous chapter, but here he goes back to his ways of old. It is hardly surprising that the dwarves lose all patience and kill him- although I don't condone this. It also shows how his willful blindness about other races has been to his detriment. Surely he should have been able to predict how very much the Silmaril would be coveted by the Dwarves? Especially set in a beautiful necklace of their own craft! If he had understood the nature of dwarves better, he, hopefully, would not have made this fundamental error! I cannot say that I feel much sympathy for Thingol personally, when he is killed, but it is a calamity for his people and for Doriath.
5) Melian- I'm not surprised at her leaving, but I am disappointed. But then I find the whole Melian/Thingol relationship a bit off-kilter. Why was she so taken with him that she took incarnate form and married him? He may have been handsome, but his character and personality leave much to be desired. Or was he not that arrogant until he married Melian and was a bit too proud of having a Maia as his wife, even though he ignored her wisdom most of the time? How much would good looks influence a Maia anyway? Or maybe it was just that Melian saw marrying Thingol as her destiny? Something which had to be done, so has to give hope for the future of M-e and fulfil Eru's intentions ultimately?


Thank you for your kind words!

Not so long ago we discussed the bad apples of Middle-Earth, and paid attention to the fact that very few if any women in Middle-Earth seem to fall for the Byronic angsty bad guy type, as women so often do in other fiction. Middle-Earth women always fall for the good guy! But here we encounter a problem. Thingol's status as a good guy can seriously be questioned, and at points seems to be defended only by him being a king of one of the good nations, and Lúthien's father. So why is Thingol so racist, and so arrogant? Is he ment to be a symphathetic charcacter, or is the reader supposed to facepalm at his deeds?

Is it Tolkien channelling masculine insecurity at the face of enchanting but scary feminine otherness? Or him being unwilling to let his ladies have the same amount of personal vices as he allows his male characters to have, because he loves them too much? Or is it a case of Tolkien making the husband look bad to make the beloved lady look better in comparison? Poor Celeborn certainly bites this one, hard. Or could it be Tolkien never came to think that Thingol doesn't seem like a very charming life partner for a female reader - that he only saw the couple through masculine eyes?

No matter how it is, one certainly is left to wonder what Melian saw in Thingol. Was it just love at first sight, and after the marriage was a fact she just had to deal with her lot. Sly Or is there some secret private Thingol we never see, who's charming and lovely and not behaving like a douche twenty-four-seven.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 28 2013, 11:42pm

Post #7 of 49 (470 views)
Shortcut
Terrific [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for such a great chapter overview and insightful questions, Faenoriel, in addition to the information on how it was constructed. You're right about this being such a sad chapter that ends many sagas. The sadness is unrelenting by this time: first the Nirnaeth, then Turin bringing destruction to Nargothrond and Brethil, then Hurin dooming Gondolin and Doriath. This chapter stands out more as the death knell of Beleriand to me because Gondolin is in a tiny valley and isolated from the rest of the world, but Doriath was the original kingdom there, and the spiritual center of the map in addition to the geographical center.

Canon: given that Christopher made quite a few changes elsewhere, though not as substantially as here, it seems canon enough to me. His details vary, but he seems to have stayed true to the overall ideas behind the story.

Hurin: on 1st read, I was furious with his actions, but I've warmed up to him over time and see him as more of a victim of fate and divine curses and less of a trouble-maker. I'll probably never warm up to Turin, but Hurin was behaving the way any solitary, desperate, and justifiably bitter man would. It's disappointing in a spiritual way that his actions doom both Gondolin and Doriath; it seems that Morgoth's malice is winning even though Hurin had defied him for decades. I'm not sure his tombstone could say, "He was not conquered." Morwen was the only one who emerged unconquered, but she seems to have spent years of dragon-induced madness in the wilderness, so her timespan of being unconquered was very brief. That part always seems to me like Hurin is stretching the truth about her, desperate to believe something of his family was unsullied. And yes, that scene between them is Tolkien at his best. It burned an image in my mind of the two of them together at last, along with the tragic timing. Morwen's "I shall go with the sun" is heart-wrenching.

As much as I dislike Mim, I don't see what Hurin accomplished by killing him. I think it was wrong. And to be fair about the whole thing, Turin's band killed Mim's son first, so the blood started with him.

Thingol: He seems to be his true self again, and for that reason, the Turin chapter seems "non-canon" to me. That's a completely different Thingol in the previous chapter. His transformation could be explained by having some personal growth in Luthien's travails, but that transformation seems to have evaporated here. Oh well. This is the Thingol I expect to see. I don't feel any grief when he dies and feel like he's brought it on himself, not that I excuse the Dwarves.

Melian:
I hope Maciliel shows up for some Melian-bashing, because her last act is an ignoble one. I understand that she loves Thingol, etc, but she's been around those other Elves like Mablung for centuries. How can she abandon them so heartlessly? In her favor, I'll admit that she was a goddess married to an immortal, and whether she foresaw Thingol's death or not, she couldn't have known how she'd react to it, just as us mortals can't either. It would make sense that she's not only overcome by grief, but profoundly confused too. How could her lover be gone? She couldn't be killed, just temporarily unhoused until she re-housed herself. How long would Thingol be in Mandos? Could she pull some strings and win him an early release? What would life in Valinor be like with him, just the two of them with no kingdom? Wouldn't he be a different person if he weren't a powerful king? It's a lot to figure out.

B&L's family: yes, I find it odd that Dior pops up and then gets snuffed so quickly. He seems like he'd be an interesting person, especially with "Dior Eluchil set himself to raise anew the glory of the kingdom of Doriath." I'm never quite sure how he'd do that without his grandmother's Girdle, yet it's heroic of him to try. What happens to B&L's family is catastrophic. It seems particularly unjust that Nimloth is killed; the Sons of Feanor are killing women now, too? The fate of Elwing's brothers is an atrocity. How could the enchanted love of B&L come to such a rotten end?

The Silmaril: I agree with Brethil that it's a mirror of the soul, so it reflected and amplified Thingol's pride as it inflamed Feanor's pride and Morgoth's envy. Luthien is too wholesome to have it reflect any negative traits, but it's disturbing that it hastens her death. Just one more reason for me to think the world would have been better if those jewels had never been made.

The Sons of Feanor: they can't die soon enough for me! I think it's fate that keeps them alive to play their nefarious part in the Noldor's misery. Since you find redeeming traits in Feanor, what do you think of his sons?

Loss: Gondolin's fall is the saddest for me. I never get much of a sense of Hithlum or the Feanorian realms to conjure up much loss when they're overrun. Falas would come #2 in my sense of loss. Cirdan did everything right and was quite selfless in the coalition against Morgoth, so it's deeply unfair that he should lose his realm. (Though I always wonder why Ulmo didn't tell him to escape early, or help him do so.) Yet as much as I am not fond of Thingol, I reason that the majority of Elves in Beleriand were Sindar and looked to him as their king, and Melian was a goddess among lower beings, so Doriath's loss weighs heavily as the loss of the Elves' spiritual core.

Elves vs Dwarves: just a misunderstanding, like the basis of so much real-world racial hatred!

Sadness: I'm pretty numb by this point of the book after so much loss.

Thanks again for the excellent summary and analysis.



Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 12:15am

Post #8 of 49 (482 views)
Shortcut
Responses... and more responses! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
3) What about the last parting of Húrin and Morwen? Isn't this Tolkien at his most touching? So much is left unsaid, so much is understood. But what Húrin ment by saying ”she was not conquered”? Morwen's death is one of my favorite pieces ever written by Tolkien. Such strenght of emotion expressed with such subtlety. It is! 4) How satisfied are you with the death of Thingol at the hands of the Dwarven smiths he has arrogantly mocked? In the Narn i Hín Húrin it almost seems like Thingol has learned his aespo about racism and arrogance, but here we go again.
*aesop, not aespo. Anyway, as I said with answer 1, this feels very unsatisfying. While miscommunication is one common cause for tragedy in Middle-Earth, the inability to learn from your mistakes seems to be another. Tolkien really liked his themes of humbleness, patience and wish to understand instead of control. I like Aespo. It sounds like a scooter, or something, that a writer of fairy tales would ride. I agree that power cannot overcome power in JRRT's world. Patience and humility are some of the most powerful tools.
5) Are you dissapointed with Melian for abandoning Doriath to its fate, at such a time? Do you understand her decision to leave to Valinor to mourn her sorrows?
Sorry to say, but yes, yes I am dissapointed with her. It does seem like she just abandons the people who have taken shelter under her wing because she herself is sad. Perhaps this is unfair of me, but then again, if she hadn't left, her grandchildren and grand-grandchildren wouldn't have died either. Yes! I can understand that.
7) I've learned to like Lúthien more than I did before... but my God, here she truly annoys me. She's so above everyone and everything it at points gets nauseatic. Perhaps we should allow Tolkien worshipping his wife figure... The Mary Sue effect? Wink
10) The beginning of the tale of woe of the Dwarves vs Elves conflict! Even previously the Elves were haughty towards the Dwarves – but accepted their services – and the Dwarves apparently were jealous of the Elves. Who is more right, or is there anyone who's right or wrong, and is it only a sad story of misunderstandings and prejudices?
Truth to be told, I tend to side with the Dwarves, just because the stories are always written from the point of view of the Elves, and because the Dwarves have had it rougher, and without their own fault. Yet like so often in real ethnic conflicts, there is no one side with would be utterly wrong and one side to be completly right. I agree with you wholeheartedly here. And I am a sucker for underdogs.
11) Also the twin sons being left in the forest (their parents have just died, too), and then Maedhros in vain trying to find them is very powerful image.
Oh. Yeah. I don't like to think about that. Its awful. One of the worst things they do. Ever.



What power is protecting the grave of Túrin, Niënor and Morwen? Why can't Morwen fell the stone, and why is it left over waters after Beleriand sinks? Are the Valar at work - in which case it must be Ulmo - or is it Eru himself? It's very touching to think in the later ages, out in the sea there's an island, and on the island is this ancient gravestone for the fated family. Or Mandos? Awaiting the final battle? Though I bet Ulmo tends it.

Húrin commits suicide, just like his children. For Tolkien as a Catholic, this must have been extra awful. Just goes its way to show how completly over Húrin's life was. One wonders if there could have been any help. any healing for him. Could Melian have helped him? Just speaking to her freed him from Morgoth's lies. I think that it was the only way for peace, and for that family to be reunited in whatever hope JRRT gave Men at their end.

Lots of characters die in this chapter that we never really got to know. Mablung, for instance. The reader is sort of hinted that there might be great tales to hear about a great personality, but he just never gets the limelight. Dior I've already mentioned... also, what's going on with Dior being called "the Fair"? Because there's another character with that ephitath... Celegorm! Is that a CT editing choice?

This chapter is very relevant for the Hobbit, because when the Company enters Mirkwood, the ancient feud carried by the characters is inherited from this chapter. Indeed if we believe Thranduil started out as a Thingol stand-in, it becomes ever more meaningfull! Very true. And along the same themes too, family jewels (I mean that literally. Stop laughing, all of you. Filthy minds.) and the coveting of what each has. And as you say, Thranduil steps into Thingol's shoes and makes some less than wise choices in the situation - he also has a profound lack of understanding for the Dwarves he must deal with. And lovely that the same weapons that saw the fall of Gondolin live again.


The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 29 2013, 12:16am)


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 29 2013, 12:48pm

Post #9 of 49 (455 views)
Shortcut
Fëanorians, Fëanorians everywhere [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
You're right about this being such a sad chapter that ends many sagas. The sadness is unrelenting by this time: first the Nirnaeth, then Turin bringing destruction to Nargothrond and Brethil, then Hurin dooming Gondolin and Doriath. This chapter stands out more as the death knell of Beleriand to me because Gondolin is in a tiny valley and isolated from the rest of the world, but Doriath was the original kingdom there, and the spiritual center of the map in addition to the geographical center.----- I'm pretty numb by this point of the book after so much loss.


At points one wonders if Tolkien got a kick out of wallowing in tears and self-induced pain. Silmarillion is positively masochistic.


In Reply To

Melian:
I hope Maciliel shows up for some Melian-bashing, because her last act is an ignoble one. I understand that she loves Thingol, etc, but she's been around those other Elves like Mablung for centuries. How can she abandon them so heartlessly? In her favor, I'll admit that she was a goddess married to an immortal, and whether she foresaw Thingol's death or not, she couldn't have known how she'd react to it, just as us mortals can't either. It would make sense that she's not only overcome by grief, but profoundly confused too. How could her lover be gone? She couldn't be killed, just temporarily unhoused until she re-housed herself. How long would Thingol be in Mandos? Could she pull some strings and win him an early release? What would life in Valinor be like with him, just the two of them with no kingdom? Wouldn't he be a different person if he weren't a powerful king? It's a lot to figure out.


Hmmm... when sad and when sick people become selfish, and it was selfish to abandon her people to the mercies of the evil world just because *she* had suffered a loss. A very annoying noice at the back of my head says this happened because she was a wife, and 19th Century romantics would say a wife is so devoted to her husband (and her children) she ceases to be and to live after they - her reason to exist - are gone. I'd hate to think that of Melian, who stands out as a power house and a backbone of the forces of good, just like Galadriel later. They both are the queens of the free people, but they both also have husbands who so obviously are much lesser in power and need to be almost babysitted by their more competent wives. Did those husbands exist just because the powerful lady figure would otherwise be too powerful? Do the male narrative need to be able to say "but she's stil married to one of us, she's under control!"

Heh, I'm probably paranoid here...


In Reply To
B&L's family: yes, I find it odd that Dior pops up and then gets snuffed so quickly. He seems like he'd be an interesting person, especially with "Dior Eluchil set himself to raise anew the glory of the kingdom of Doriath." I'm never quite sure how he'd do that without his grandmother's Girdle, yet it's heroic of him to try. What happens to B&L's family is catastrophic. It seems particularly unjust that Nimloth is killed; the Sons of Feanor are killing women now, too? The fate of Elwing's brothers is an atrocity. How could the enchanted love of B&L come to such a rotten end?


Well, to be fair, their love did not come to a rotten end. Elwing survived, married Eärendil and became an instrument of brining the Valar's forgiveness and help, and ultimately the end of Morgoth's rule. But it only came to be after all the attempts to overcome Morgoth by their own strenght had been proven utterly hopeless, and not a quantum of their former glory, strenght and pride was left. It could be seen as a Christian element; the uselessness of trying to fight sin and evil with flesh that lives under that same sin, and that understanding this uselessness through bitter failure makes you not only wish for help from something or someone stronger than you, but also makes you accept that help - when your life that was lived in your own strenght is utterly over and all you have left is the ruins left by your mistakes, you no longer feel too proud to accept help offered by others.


In Reply To
The Sons of Feanor: they can't die soon enough for me! I think it's fate that keeps them alive to play their nefarious part in the Noldor's misery.


"Every fairytale needs a good old-fashioned villain." -Moriarty Tongue


In Reply To
Since you find redeeming traits in Feanor, ....


I do find, though it's less a question of trying to come up with something good to say about a bad man, and more just me generally really liking the traditional Byronic character type. "Bad, mad and dangerous to know", indeed. It's not to say that "it's not his fault, it's the surroundings that made him do it!" or "actually he's right about everything, people are just brainwashed by school, church and the Valar!"

But because I face so many temptations, because I fall so often, and because the source of this failure is my own weakness, my own rottedness, my own evil... I can't help but to love characters who channel the same weaknesses, fears and turmoils as I recognize in myself, while they still also feel to me like real people of fleash and blood, with something good in them that they're in danger to lose, with something noble in them that they can fail.

Silmarillion has many characters who are pure and noble and victorious in spirit... I admire them... but I cannot relate to them. I cannot sit next to them, put my arm around them and look into their eyes and think: "I know you and you know me. Let me walk on your side on this road to Calvary, and we'll be imperfect and lost together."


In Reply To
....what do you think of his sons?


My nick which I've used forever on almost every site means "daughter of Fëanor", so.... Sly We don't know the Sons nearly as well as their father. There's tons of information about Fëanor's nature and all the parts of his life story. A very complex and a very vivid picture is drawn of him. The Sons however are painted with much more broad stikes.

We learn quite a lot of things of Maedhros... yet he's a mystery to me. He's an introvert it seems, and he keeps his thoughts hidden from me. What dreams he had outside those put on him by Fëanor? Maedhros seems like one of those children who's fate is to fulfill the aspirtations of their parents, instead of ever really gaining a control of their own life. He might have had lots of potential, but he accepts his fate, and thus his life is wasted...

Maglor is a passive personality. He'd just want to be left alone with his music and his poetry, but he goes with the flow. First he follows his father, then Maedhros, and when Maedhros is gone all his actions are passive, to avoid conflict. He must have been very happy to have Maedhros as the leader again. Later he wishes to submit to the demands of the Valar, even if he cannot know what their judgement will be... Also he has nursing instinct, as evident with the El twins. I think he would have liked to nurse his little brothers too, but he's too quiet and too gentle spirit to have influence on such a noisy, headstrong lot. Reminds me of my big sister; when we were children, she was always bothered by loud voices and the chaos we smaller ones created.

Celegorm is one of those people who absolutely live in the moment, and receive information of the surrounding reality only with their five senses. Very extroverted, very passionate. An outdoors type. In a High School AU he should totally be the school's sports hero. I wouldn't take any advice from him, but I'm sure he gives very good hugs.

Caranthir... this may sound strange, but I have certain weakness for him. Perhaps because he's the lonely one? Because he really seems to be the unfavorite? Even Nerdanel named him "red faced", which isn't a very nice thing to do for an Elf child. And yet despite this position, he's not stupid. Oh, and I passionately ship him with Haleth. Evil My headcanon says he was born during a time when Fëanor and Nerdanel were fighting a lot and Nerdanel perhaps even moved out for a while. Because of this they didn't have much time or energy for their son, who was mosty left to be raised by Maedhros. Even later, his existence always reminds his parents of the memory of that bad time. Because of this, Caranthir sees Madhros as his father figure and targets his rebellion and tantrums at him, who's as patient with him as he can.

Curufin. Uh oh. Can't make up my mind about him. They keep claiming he's just like Fëanor, but I just don't see the connection. Fëanor is passionate and rash and always says his mind even when it's not wise. But Curufin is careful and calculated. I think he's simply spoiled, and might have that spoiled rich kid vibe about him. But he forms a nice power duo with Celegorm. And I wonder if he has been "loved to death" by Fëanor, and it would have been better for him to get to grow outside his father's heavy shadow.

Amrod and Amras. We know almost nothing about them, expect that Nerdanel was apparently most attached to them, and the feeling seems to have been mutual. Perhaps they were born when their parents relationship was already falling apart, and they spent more time with their mother than their father. Yet they remain loayl to Fëanor - Amrod even after Fëanor (in some versions) accidentally killed Amras to prevent him from returning to Nerdanel. Why? There seems to have been little love for their father. Are they afraid of him, even after his death? They certainly seem to not to care too much about the war with Morgoth, and prefer to stay far in the southern woodlands, spending outdoorsy life.

I wonder what their relationship with their father was. Fanarts and fanfiction often show Fëanor as a loving daddy, but I have my doubts... personally I think he was a distant, emotionally cold figure whom they tried to please, from whom they would have wanted, would have needed more gentleness, hugs, praise, encouragement... but Fëanor wasn't up to such role. He was too emotionally immature and broken himself to act as a source of love. He would have needed to become a child himself again and to be raised again by a loving but stern mother, and a father who doesn't spoil him to make up for hurts of the world, and his own perceived failings.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 29 2013, 1:38pm

Post #10 of 49 (443 views)
Shortcut
Maybe this should have been 3 chapters? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow. Great chapter opener. If responses come in slowly, suspect stunned admiration as the cause Smile

It's interesting to read about the work Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay had to do on this chapter especially, and to have your notes of the various versions they tried to meld together. I agree this is a particularly difficult chapter for them to try this with, because it is such a junction or switchbox - things coming to an end, other things starting up (or starting up again; like the Silmarils as a cause of strife). I expect that is why JRRT himself had not got as far as a satisfactory solution, and so left it to his executors.

Maybe it is all too much for a single chapter. Perhaps we should have:

1) Of Hurin

Poor chap is released, but although he is no longer under Morgoth's power, he is everywhere mistrusted (a final irony). He finishes the Turin plot arc, and starts another when he accidentally betrays the rough location of Gondolin

2) Of The Death of Thingol
Can't say it surprised me: the silmaril is already established as a jewel that drives people crazy, so I see it as affecting both sides. Who should both behave better, Of Course. It's not just the Sons of Feanor who do crazy things to get it, though they have, or believe they have, the extra incentive of the Oath. But it seems you can behave like an Oaf without an Oath to make you do it.

BTW in the Hobbit there is passing mention about old grudges between elves and dwarves, to do with non-payment for goods: is this the episode being referred to, do you think?

Goodbye Melian - as CuriousG commented earlier she's always been more like a plot device than a person. She could have been a magic gadget which Thingol had, and which fails upon his death. In a reply to the TORN Amateur symposium, I wondered whether she was a sort of reverse-enchanted. Common enough for mortals to end up having a dream-like experience in faerie and then feel they wake when they return. Is that how it felt for Melian? Is that why she abandons the rest of her adopted people (pretty predictably leaving them open to attack)? Or can she, for some unexplained reason, no longer stay; willing or no?

3) Of the Ruin of Doriath (By Just About Everyone Except Morgoth, for a change)
...first by the dwarves, then by the Sons of Feanor. What fun Morgoth must be having just watching, instead of having to turn up & do the ruining himself for once!

Why do you think the Ents help Beren? It seems a bit out of character from what we know of 3rd age ents. Awfully convenient as a way of giving Beren an instant army, though. Other options must have been possible - a quick effort by me goes: the Sons of Feanor enthusiastically help Beren rout the dwarves (secretly in the hope that the dwarves have the silmaril and that they will get it), Then, when invited back to Doriath for the victory feast, the Sons of Feanor demand the jewel - fighting breaks out and the Feanorians set about plundering the place...

I think it's important not to overdo the Beren + Luthien = the Tolkien family equation. I'm reminded of Tolkien's idea (in On Fairy Stories) that fairy stories are a bit like soup - certain ingredients are pretty essential - such as potatoes for potato soup. But lots of other bits ("dainty and not so dainty") can be added and a lot of the success or failure of the soup-making is balancing it all out, and leaving it to cook long enough for the flavours to blend. The story, like the soup, is more satisfying if there's more to it. A lesser writer might have made "John and Edith soup", but this would have been like serving up boiled potatoes in their cooking water (contrary to rumour, this is not the English idea of fine cooking Wink) . Instead, a lot of other elements probably got into the story, to the extent that Tolkien might have felt entirely un-squeamish about a grisly fate for the children of B&L: they are not his kids, & the story requires it. I've posted this Ursula K LeGuin quote about how plots evolve before, but it's so appropriate here that I'm going to do it again Evil

Quote
Lightspeed magazine: You talked about how, as the story evolved, "symbols you thought were simple equivalencies, signs, come alive and take on meanings you did not intend and cannot explain." Can you talk a little bit more about where this happened in the story?

Ursula leGuin: It always happens in any story that's any good. But no, I can't say exactly where it happens, because the happening is the story.


Lightspeed Magazine Issue 38, July 2013 (Discussing "The Stars Below" a LeGuin story from 1974, reprinted that issue).


.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 29 2013, 3:36pm

Post #11 of 49 (458 views)
Shortcut
Wonderful summary and questions! [In reply to] Can't Post

Skipping straight to the questions:

3) What about the last parting of Húrin and Morwen? Isn't this Tolkien at his most touching? So much is left unsaid, so much is understood. But what Húrin ment by saying ”she was not conquered”? The only bittersweet part in an almost entirely bitter family history. Unsure But I did find that final scene very touching--and I'm so glad she never knew what happened to her children (and grandchild). I think she was "not conquered" because she herself was not directly tainted by Morgoth...but also because she never gave up, not only on Hurin's return, but on her life, cruel though it was. She stands out in stark relief against her children, her sister-in-law/cousin (Rian) and even eventually Hurin himself. She was unconquered by despair.

4) How satisfied are you with the death of Thingol at the hands of the Dwarven smiths he has arrogantly mocked? In the Narn i Hín Húrin it almost seems like Thingol has learned his aespo about racism and arrogance, but here we go again. Well, of course I'm not satisfied, because it's a crying shame. But haven't we learned by now that those silmarils containing the light of Valinor are nothing but trouble for created beings? (Except for Luthien, but she kind of makes me throw up a little in my mouth at this point.) Symbolism alert!! Wink

5) Are you dissapointed with Melian for abandoning Doriath to its fate, at such a time? Do you understand her decision to leave to Valinor to mourn her sorrows? Yes, but... I have a completely unthought-through theory that Melian's "incarnation" was somehow tied to Thingol himself, and not only to Middle-earth: "in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda." I think that with his death, her "incarnation" was all but unsupportable, and that was the "change" that came upon Melian--not emotional only. (In my theory her power too was limited by her form, similar to the boundaries the Istari took on later--but I know that is a whole 'nother can of worms, so I'll stop there!)

6) Beren was Tolkien's Author Insert Character, Lúthien Edith's. In this context, do you find it surprising Tolkien gave their fictional children and grandchildren such a gruesome end? And that Dior, their fictional son, is given so little page time he hardly exists as a character?
Good point about Dior's small part! I never gave it much thought before. A gruesome end for Elured and Elurin? Nonsense. They lived happily ever after, and one later produced Prince Imrahil. That's my ridiculous story and I'm sticking to it. Wink

Must stop now...more on your other questions later (I hope!).




"It was just a sword, beautiful in the way of a weapon, with the jewels in the hilt set in gold scrollwork, and the blade glimmering and eager, as if it would fight of itself. Weapons are named for this; some are eager fighters, some dogged, some unwilling; but all are alive."--The Hollow Hills



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 30 2013, 1:49am

Post #12 of 49 (437 views)
Shortcut
Discussion points [In reply to] Can't Post

Canon

Really, as there is no finished version, there cannot be one, as we don't know Tolkien's final intents(He was an inveterate niggler). We must hen form our own 'canon' as it were, interpreting his intents for ourselves. Christopher had a pretty good idea, but he also admitted to mistakes made, so we can't take his word be final either.

Hurin

He did some pretty bad things. Murder is wrong in any context, but that doesn't stop us from empathizing with him. I don't think that we are supposed to pass moral judgement on him, so much as feel his pain.
In revealing Gondolin, Hurin furthered Morgoth's plans, albeit unintentionally. He was unbroken in seeming, yet those long years must have had some effect on him. Men are molded by their experiences, and they cannot stay the same for ever, they do not have time to waste in preservation. Elves have that time, they can afford to wait patiently for their ends to come. Perhaps this is another difference between them.

Morwen

One of the most emotional pieces of Tolkien's work, without doubt is the parting of Morwen and Hurin. His statement may be interpreted in many ways; this is my thought.

She was unaffected, or least affected, by the will of Morgoth, though granted she had little direct part in the shaping of the fate of Beleriand. Could she have done more? Perhaps her pride had kept her out of Morgoth's way, is that wny he never bothered with her too much? She seemed to be more passive in her pride, content to sit in the ruins of her people's home, never stirring to positive action.

Thingol

He seems to be a bit unaffected by the experiences prior to this, but the could also have regressed or been influenced by other powers. The times of writing the drafts could have something to do with this, but there are other options to consider.

The effect of Greed, the Silmaril, or dragon-spell on the cursed gold.

Greed could bring out the worst in all of us, and it is not beyond reason that he was susceptible to it.

The Silmaril, and its fate, play a large part in the shaping of the history of Belereiand. Their theft got the ball rolling in the first place, setting the stage for realms outside Aman. Was it purely passive? I do not think so. It had its own curse, the Curse of Feanor on it. This could have propelled events in the direction that they took. Having the light of the Two Trees in it, could it have developed its own agency, similar to the Ring? Did it want anything?

Also, remember they were hallowed by Varda, so that no evil could handle them without pain. Did the Silmaril posess power to cause psychological distress as well, subtly influencing others, driving some mad? Did it want to get away from Thingol, while he was corrupted by dragon-spell?

Then you have the idea of a curse of greed on the dragon's gold. We had some discussion on the effects of dragon-spell, which I cannot seem to locate, but there was a lot of speculation on its power and effects.

Melian

Thingol, Luthien, and by extension Beren, seemed to be her only cares in Beleriand. These last of these ties disappeared after Thingol's death. From a purely selfish standpoint, can we blame her? What did she have left? All she did seemed to be for the benefit of these three, and their removal occured. Also, the reason that she took physical form and limited here powers, was Thingol. Later Luthien bound her to the Earth more tightly. Did the death of these loved ones, free her to assume her true form once more? I can see her in Lorien with Nienna and Olorin, finding a measure of solace.

Beren and Luthien's Progeny

Their fate was a bit surprising, but not totally disappointing to me. The deaths are tragic, but it only furthers the darkening that would deepen, just before the Eucotastrophe. Death and Loss play a large part in Tolkien's work, but there is always Hope and Life to come later. Morgoth is winning, the bad guys do sometimes, but there is still Hope. The Valar will come, urged on by Earendil, and Elwing plays her part well. In my mind, the tragedy only sharpens the joy of the triumph.

The Silmaril

I do not think that it was totally passive in its influence. It contained the Light of The Two Trees, powerful in itself. Did that power, grant it agency to act in a manner analogous to the Ring? Lots of meat for discussion here.

Sons of Feanor

It is a sad fate in our world, that those who begin strife, will not be the first to suffer for their mistakes. I think that the Sons of Feanor were under a sort of 'Divine Parole', as long as they walked the 'straight and narrow' they were OK, they could not escape the final fate, but could postpone it. When the did wrong, they were punished in a more expedient manner.
Maedhros, on a side note, really gets to me. He has been given a second chance, and takes it. He wants to do right, but is bound by the Oath of Feanor. Is this the Elven counterpart to Truin?

Final Thoughts

Well it is winding down in Beleriand now. Morgoth is winning, and it will take a miracle to stop him, and it does. All tis doom and gloom, only sets up for the Eucotastrophe that will come. I think that Tolkien has exhausted the strength of the Free Peoples, and they are no longer able to stand against Morgoth, They never were going to defeat him, that much was clear. I t was a long defeat, but its time is near. times are dark but light is coming.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 30 2013, 11:09am

Post #13 of 49 (424 views)
Shortcut
"she was not conquered" [In reply to] Can't Post

…I think it means being unbeaten in spirit, even if defeated outwardly. Fingolfin might also be said go have been not conquered.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 30 2013, 11:21am

Post #14 of 49 (430 views)
Shortcut
Silmarils and ladies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"But haven't we learned by now that those silmarils containing the light of Valinor are nothing but trouble for created beings? (Except for Luthien, but she kind of makes me throw up a little…"

Apart from Lúthien, the only other female who gets much Silmaril interaction is Elwing. Unlike the boys, neither goes all crazy-possessive (that we hear of). Co-incidence?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 30 2013, 11:32am

Post #15 of 49 (422 views)
Shortcut
Well, I'd like to say [In reply to] Can't Post

it's because females are innately superior Evil, but of course that's not true.

Perhaps with Luthien and Elwing, their Maia ancestry makes the difference in how the Silmaril affects them....?

"It was just a sword, beautiful in the way of a weapon, with the jewels in the hilt set in gold scrollwork, and the blade glimmering and eager, as if it would fight of itself. Weapons are named for this; some are eager fighters, some dogged, some unwilling; but all are alive."--The Hollow Hills



noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 30 2013, 12:13pm

Post #16 of 49 (427 views)
Shortcut
There would have to be several factors… [In reply to] Can't Post

Morgoth lusts after the Silmarils, so being Valar doesn't automatically make you safe.
Seems unlikely Maiar would be Silmaril proof if Valar aren't?
Ungoliant (who might be Maiar?, and is definitely a She) wants them desperately.

So either being evil trumps being Valar &/or female, or being part-Maiar gives you hybrid vigor; or (most likely) this enquiry is a bit over-literal and silly…


Just amusing my tiny male brain Laugh

It's all making me wonder- how come Lúthien not Melian gets the Silmaril when Thingol dies? Melian could make herself useful taking the Silmaril back to Valinor with her…

That would rather wreck the rest of the plot, though…

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 30 2013, 1:22pm

Post #17 of 49 (414 views)
Shortcut
Yes, you're right [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Morgoth lusts after the Silmarils, so being Valar doesn't automatically make you
safe.
Seems unlikely Maiar would be Silmaril proof if Valar aren't?

Ungoliant (who might be Maiar?, and is definitely a She) wants them
desperately.

So either being evil trumps being Valar &/or female,
or being part-Maiar gives you hybrid vigor; or (most likely) this enquiry is a
bit over-literal and silly…



Perhaps Luthien and Elwing's virtues are not so much being part-Maiar, but part-Maiar/part Telerin (or maybe just any old brand of Elf would do)? Not sure. Just musing with my sleep-deprived female brain. Laugh

But wow, how do you determine what is evil enough to trump being Valar &/or female? Of course Morgoth and Ungoliant qualify as nasties, but there's a myriad of examples in Silmarillion of people living in the shady gray between the white of good and the black of evil. Maybe just hand 'em a Silmaril and see what happens. Angelic



In Reply To



It's all making me wonder- how come Lúthien not
Melian gets the Silmaril when Thingol dies? Melian could make herself useful
taking the Silmaril back to Valinor with her…




That's a good question! I like to go back to my pet theory of Melian's power and will being tied to the person of Thingol, and when he is gone, so goes Melian's little personal kingdom, maybe her will to participate in the goings-on of the world. Maybe she's sick of the thing, for all its inherent worth, that got her husband killed...? (Though apparently Luthien doesn't see the situation that way, since she has no problem with the Silmaril even though it got her dad killed.)

"It was just a sword, beautiful in the way of a weapon, with the jewels in the hilt set in gold scrollwork, and the blade glimmering and eager, as if it would fight of itself. Weapons are named for this; some are eager fighters, some dogged, some unwilling; but all are alive."--The Hollow Hills



noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 30 2013, 1:38pm

Post #18 of 49 (421 views)
Shortcut
Handing out Silmarils? [In reply to] Can't Post

Woah! We'd never get that experiment past the ethics committee! Smile

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 30 2013, 3:31pm

Post #19 of 49 (413 views)
Shortcut
*scornful laugh* [In reply to] Can't Post

Ethics committee! Ha!

Where were they, I'd like to know, while Melkor poisoned the hearts of the Noldor, and Feanor made his rash vow? I could go on, but I stop here to give my withering scorn a respite.

Wink

"It was just a sword, beautiful in the way of a weapon, with the jewels in the hilt set in gold scrollwork, and the blade glimmering and eager, as if it would fight of itself. Weapons are named for this; some are eager fighters, some dogged, some unwilling; but all are alive."--The Hollow Hills



noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 30 2013, 3:39pm

Post #20 of 49 (397 views)
Shortcut
Maybe Melkor fed the Ethics Committee to Ungoliant? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 30 2013, 3:43pm

Post #21 of 49 (393 views)
Shortcut
No wonder the poor dear was still so hungry.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"It was just a sword, beautiful in the way of a weapon, with the jewels in the hilt set in gold scrollwork, and the blade glimmering and eager, as if it would fight of itself. Weapons are named for this; some are eager fighters, some dogged, some unwilling; but all are alive."--The Hollow Hills



sador
Half-elven


Aug 1 2013, 1:59pm

Post #22 of 49 (387 views)
Shortcut
A few comments; answers to your questions will hopefully be on Sunday [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Because this chapter includes so much of wrapping up of old plot threads, it's unsurprising it was always a difficult one both for Tolkien and for Christopher. Tolkien never found a satisfying way to end the Doriath mythos.



Well, he never really tried. All his attempts to write The Silmarillion after 1930 fizzled out before this stage; and The Wanderings of Hurin (which were the fizzling-out of The Grey Annals) ended before Hurin got anywhere. My personal suspicion is that once he wrote so much about a Mannish society, he had to go back and improve all the earlier tales.
Tolkien always found it problematic to complete stories - but I don't think the complexity is what daunted him.


In Reply To


Christopher inherited the woe, and tried to find a solution by writing what amounts to a story that is actually invented by him, not by his father. It includes elements from the various different plot ideas Tolkien came up with during the years.


I am pretty sure Guy Kay deserves much of the blame (or credit!). After all, he went on to become quite a talented and successful writer, which Christopher never did.

ETA: I see you've quoted Christopher's words below; but I still think Guy Kay did even more than what Christopher actually admitted. Of course, the final approval and ultimate responsibility are Christopher's.




In Reply To


Yet in the end, Christopher came to regret his choices.


In a way.
But he never stated that a better rewrite was, or is, possible; he stated that the extreme liberties he had to undertake undermined the justification of the whole unified Silmarillion project.

Do we agree - should The Silmarillion as a unified book have been scrapped? Or do we accept what Christopher gave us at first? Or will someone try to produce an ultimate "fan-cut" out of Tolkien's drafts? (Yes, I know I am being provocative)
However, you have asked no questions regarding the editorial process, so I'll drop this subject.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 1 2013, 2:24pm

Post #23 of 49 (395 views)
Shortcut
I for one am eternally grateful for what CT gave us [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Do we agree - should The Silmarillion as a unified
book have been scrapped? Or do we accept what Christopher gave us at first?




I'm grateful both for what Christopher gave us first -- the unified published Silmarillion -- and what he gave us subsequently, the vast majority of the drafts and different versions that he (and, of course the mysterious Guy Kay, who I agree likely had a much bigger role than is acknowledged as I have said before) used to create that unified version.

As for this chapter, my biggest complaint is that he (they) omitted most of the Wanderings of Hurin. I think much more of that fascinating work could have been incorporated in the final text (and we know that they knew about it, because some of it clearly is used as the source of some of this chapter). Not only would that have added more very good material written by Tolkien himself, it would helped avoid some of the extensive invention they had to do. To quote from myself in Arda Reconstructed:




Quote


The story of Húrin in Brethil, which makes up the bulk of The Wanderings
of Húrin, is omitted in its entirety. The failure to include any
of this part of the tale is unfortunate, because the story does such a
wonderful job of showing how the shadow fell on that land. It provides

the kind of detail that makes The Lord of the Rings such a fascinating
work, and is often missing in The Silmarillion. I do not believe
that the full text of The Wanderings of Húrin could have been incorporated
into The Silmarillion, but I do believe that significant portions
should have been included. Christopher is correct, however, in pointing
out that it is written on such a scale that it would have required

significant editorial changes in order to incorporate it into The Silmarillion.

However, had he done so, it might have helped avoid the even
more significant editorial invention that he was forced to make in this

chapter. Christopher points out that The Wanderings of Húrin was supposed
to serve as a link to the “Necklace of the Dwarves” and the
“Necklace of the Woe of Thingol,” but that it remained unfinished

(see WotJ, 258, 297–98). However, had Christopher incorporated
more of this text, it might have been easier for him to avoid the inventions
regarding the Nauglamîr, because he could have included the
outlaws that Húrin recruited, which would have helped him retain
the story of the gold taken from Nargothrond, rather than change it
so that Húrin, being alone, was able to bring only one thing from the
remnants of the hoard that Glaurung had left there.



'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


CuriousG
Valinor


Aug 2 2013, 6:17pm

Post #24 of 49 (357 views)
Shortcut
Silmarils and marriage [In reply to] Can't Post

If those trouble-making jewels sow so much discord, then why:
1. Did Beren not try to take it away from Luthien?
2. Did Elwing hand it over to Earendil not as a loan, but as a keepsake?

Is there something about happy marriages that dampens the ill effects? If you already have someone to love, you don't obsess over these things because your emotional needs are satisfied?


Brethil
Half-elven


Aug 3 2013, 1:24am

Post #25 of 49 (348 views)
Shortcut
I think it does, if it reflects inner need. // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If those trouble-making jewels sow so much discord, then why:
1. Did Beren not try to take it away from Luthien?
2. Did Elwing hand it over to Earendil not as a loan, but as a keepsake?

Is there something about happy marriages that dampens the ill effects? If you already have someone to love, you don't obsess over these things because your emotional needs are satisfied?


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!







First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.