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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Women madly in love with men not so worthy of them?

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 28 2013, 10:29pm


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Women madly in love with men not so worthy of them? [In reply to] Can't Post


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4) Thingol's death- like you say- "here we go again" this guy never learns!! He seems to have overcome a lot of his shortcomings in the previous chapter, but here he goes back to his ways of old. It is hardly surprising that the dwarves lose all patience and kill him- although I don't condone this. It also shows how his willful blindness about other races has been to his detriment. Surely he should have been able to predict how very much the Silmaril would be coveted by the Dwarves? Especially set in a beautiful necklace of their own craft! If he had understood the nature of dwarves better, he, hopefully, would not have made this fundamental error! I cannot say that I feel much sympathy for Thingol personally, when he is killed, but it is a calamity for his people and for Doriath.
5) Melian- I'm not surprised at her leaving, but I am disappointed. But then I find the whole Melian/Thingol relationship a bit off-kilter. Why was she so taken with him that she took incarnate form and married him? He may have been handsome, but his character and personality leave much to be desired. Or was he not that arrogant until he married Melian and was a bit too proud of having a Maia as his wife, even though he ignored her wisdom most of the time? How much would good looks influence a Maia anyway? Or maybe it was just that Melian saw marrying Thingol as her destiny? Something which had to be done, so has to give hope for the future of M-e and fulfil Eru's intentions ultimately?


Thank you for your kind words!

Not so long ago we discussed the bad apples of Middle-Earth, and paid attention to the fact that very few if any women in Middle-Earth seem to fall for the Byronic angsty bad guy type, as women so often do in other fiction. Middle-Earth women always fall for the good guy! But here we encounter a problem. Thingol's status as a good guy can seriously be questioned, and at points seems to be defended only by him being a king of one of the good nations, and Lúthien's father. So why is Thingol so racist, and so arrogant? Is he ment to be a symphathetic charcacter, or is the reader supposed to facepalm at his deeds?

Is it Tolkien channelling masculine insecurity at the face of enchanting but scary feminine otherness? Or him being unwilling to let his ladies have the same amount of personal vices as he allows his male characters to have, because he loves them too much? Or is it a case of Tolkien making the husband look bad to make the beloved lady look better in comparison? Poor Celeborn certainly bites this one, hard. Or could it be Tolkien never came to think that Thingol doesn't seem like a very charming life partner for a female reader - that he only saw the couple through masculine eyes?

No matter how it is, one certainly is left to wonder what Melian saw in Thingol. Was it just love at first sight, and after the marriage was a fact she just had to deal with her lot. Sly Or is there some secret private Thingol we never see, who's charming and lovely and not behaving like a douche twenty-four-seven.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

Subject User Time
Silmarillion discussion, chapter 22: The Ruin of Doriath Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Jul 28 2013, 4:13pm
    An excellent summary of the chapter Faenoriel elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 28 2013, 5:00pm
        Women madly in love with men not so worthy of them? Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Jul 28 2013, 10:29pm
    Thoughts Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 28 2013, 6:57pm
    Ruin of Doriath: awesome questions Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 28 2013, 8:56pm
    Own answers, and some additional thoughts about the chapter Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Jul 28 2013, 10:13pm
        Responses... and more responses! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 29 2013, 12:15am
        Answers at last (part II) sador Send a private message to sador Aug 5 2013, 12:23pm
    Terrific CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 28 2013, 11:42pm
        Fëanorians, Fëanorians everywhere Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Jul 29 2013, 12:48pm
        fashionably late for some melian-bashing Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 5 2013, 4:57am
            Melian wasn't able to do enough to save Thingol and keep Doriath safe Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Aug 5 2013, 5:26am
                Thoughts. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 5 2013, 5:36am
                her presence +was+ effective Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 5 2013, 2:12pm
            That is actually an excellent point. sador Send a private message to sador Aug 5 2013, 8:10am
            All I can do is agree, agree, agree with you. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 5 2013, 2:53pm
                hey : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 5 2013, 3:14pm
                    Dan Brown using people as plot devices? Impossible! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 5 2013, 3:19pm
            Isn´t this a bit harsh? elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 5 2013, 7:30pm
                Just to clarify CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 8 2013, 9:27pm
                hallo : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Aug 9 2013, 10:07pm
                    Hyberbole at it's most hyperbolic CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 11 2013, 6:41pm
                        Is hyperbole more hyperbolic than the Superbowl is superbolic? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 12 2013, 9:03am
                            Funny you should mention that. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 13 2013, 5:11am
                                O-o-ohhh, s-a-a-y can't you s-e-e-e… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Aug 13 2013, 9:20am
            some other points elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 6 2013, 5:33am
    Maybe this should have been 3 chapters? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 29 2013, 1:38pm
    Wonderful summary and questions! Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 29 2013, 3:36pm
        "she was not conquered" noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 11:09am
        Silmarils and ladies noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 11:21am
            Well, I'd like to say Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 30 2013, 11:32am
                There would have to be several factors… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 12:13pm
                    Yes, you're right Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 30 2013, 1:22pm
                        Handing out Silmarils? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 1:38pm
                            *scornful laugh* Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 30 2013, 3:31pm
                                Maybe Melkor fed the Ethics Committee to Ungoliant? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 30 2013, 3:39pm
                                    No wonder the poor dear was still so hungry.// Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 30 2013, 3:43pm
                        Silmarils and marriage CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 2 2013, 6:17pm
                            I think it does, if it reflects inner need. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Aug 3 2013, 1:24am
    Discussion points Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 30 2013, 1:49am
    A few comments; answers to your questions will hopefully be on Sunday sador Send a private message to sador Aug 1 2013, 1:59pm
        I for one am eternally grateful for what CT gave us Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 1 2013, 2:24pm
    one of the best chapters IMO elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 4 2013, 11:18am
    Answers at last (part I) sador Send a private message to sador Aug 4 2013, 5:57pm
        Not the point of the book Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 4 2013, 6:51pm
            That's not what I've meant; I apologise sador Send a private message to sador Aug 4 2013, 7:27pm
                No problem! Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 4 2013, 8:11pm
                    Well, this is an example sador Send a private message to sador Aug 5 2013, 7:59am
                        Ah yes, I recall saying that Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 5 2013, 1:38pm

 
 
 

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