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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
More Dwarven singing in DOS?
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bruinen
Bree


Jul 28 2013, 2:59pm

Post #1 of 28 (1189 views)
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More Dwarven singing in DOS? Can't Post

My Sunday post on The History of the Hobbit in the Reading Room is still on hiatus while the TORn Symposium sparkles on...

Thought I'd post instead about upcoming lyrics from the book, related to previous post "Peter jackson music update everything going be new score music"...


Main Question: Do you think we'll see the dwarves doing more group singing?

From my reading of the book, there is only one canon opportunity of Dwarven Singing (as opposed to songs attributed to Bilbo, the Elves, or the people of Laketown) coming up in what I think will be DOS material...

1. The Beorn scene in the book (Chapter 7: Queer Lodgings) includes a near repeat of the Bag End singing scene...sleepy Bilbo hears the dwarves singing around the fire at Beorn's lodge. Same pentameter as Misty Mountain song (in fact, fits with the same tune.) Though the "new music" comment makes me think that if used, these verses would have a new melody--and I'm not thinking (given the way the themes changed in each of the LOTR films) that we would see a melodic repeat. I can see pros/cons to including this, however. Yes, it's canon, but could also be too repetitive of AUJ material. What do you think? First stanza:


The wind was on the withered heath,
but in the forest stirred no leaf :
there shadows lay by night and day,
and dark things silent crept beneath

2. Another opportunity for Dwarven Singing based on canon comes in Erebor after the death of Smaug--which I suspect is TABA material. This is the scene where the dwarves are soothing Thorin in Chapter 15: Gathering of the Clouds. Again, same pentameter (the dwarves seem consistent on this in TH...) In my mind, I never heard Thorin participating in this song...at least not in the beginning. What do you think? "But their song was not like elvish song, and was much like the song they had sung long before in Bilbo's little hobbit hole." First stanza:

Under the Mountain dark and tall
The King has come unto his hall!
His foe is dead, the Worm of Dread,
And ever so his foes shall fall.

3. Lastly, does anyone know if the cast has commented on doing more songs other than the Misty Mountain song? (Other than the Bofur/Merry old inn song cut from AUJ, which we may see in the EE.) If anyone's going to fan events (Boston or Atlanta?) maybe this would make a fair question!

Side note: I admit to queueing up Neil Finn's "Song of the Lonely Mountain" for the morning commute last Friday, in honor of the last day of filming. Unsure

(Discussion ofThe History of the Hobbit by John D Rateliff will continue in the RRoom post-TORn Symposium.)









My Avatar: the desk Tolkien used when he wrote The Hobbit...now on display at Wheaton College.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 28 2013, 3:13pm

Post #2 of 28 (505 views)
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I keep forgetting about the Dwarves' song at Beorn's lodge [In reply to] Can't Post

If we do get the "Wind on the Withered Heath" song in DoS then we'll be lucky any more than half of the given verses are included. As you note, there is also the possibility of hearing the Lake-men sing "The Mountain-king's Return" to honor Thorin and Company during their stay in Esgaroth. I actually very much like the melody for this song written for the Rankin/Bass animated film of The Hobbit.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Old Toby
Gondor


Jul 28 2013, 5:16pm

Post #3 of 28 (428 views)
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I for one hope that we get more dwarf singing! [In reply to] Can't Post

I loved Thorin & Co singing at Bag End...one of the moments I really relished! And I love Neil Finn's Song of the Lonely Mountain too. They were both such a joy to listen to! Even after so many years of reading and re-reading those lyrics in the book, I never imagined they could be rendered so beautifully and so moving. I hope we get more in the next films.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Jul 28 2013, 7:58pm

Post #4 of 28 (386 views)
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Good Things Come in Threes [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps each of the movies will have its own dwarf song. That would be great as dwarf singing would become a thread throughout the 3 movies and we would get to hear them sing some more.


Nira
Lorien


Jul 28 2013, 8:18pm

Post #5 of 28 (348 views)
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I hope so [In reply to] Can't Post

I was pleasantly surprised how well the dwarves singing came across in the movie. I thought it would feel out of place or hokey, but it turned out to be a highlight of the film for me. Just no more goblin songs.Pirate

"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?" -Samwise


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 28 2013, 8:39pm

Post #6 of 28 (336 views)
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Whatever they put in the Films will be Killer!/// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dik-dik
Lorien


Jul 28 2013, 8:39pm

Post #7 of 28 (354 views)
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singing, and not just Dwarvish - a definite 'yes' from me. [In reply to] Can't Post

The songs were for me one of the best things about AUJ, if not *the* best, so I am hoping for a continuation. I actually enjoyed even the Orc song.
I am not sure if it was the cast themselves that sang the dishes song and the Misty Mountain song, but whoever it was, I found the voices pleasant, and a repeat would be welcome. :)

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 28 2013, 8:44pm

Post #8 of 28 (351 views)
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I certainly hope so, as I hope to see a certain display of colourful Wizard smoke rings. I would find it more effective if [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin alone is overheard singing lines in this instance, rather than an attempt to repeat the flawless choral occassion from the first movie. I would love it if Thorin sang some part of The World Was Fair in Durin's Day, whilst Gandalf told Bilbo something of the history of the dwarves and the ruin of Sacred Moria.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


kbdiggity
Rivendell

Jul 28 2013, 10:23pm

Post #9 of 28 (310 views)
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.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi-Ho
Hi-Ho
Through Mirkwood we Go!

(whistles)

Hi-Ho! Hi-Ho! Hi-Ho!


Na Vedui
Rohan


Jul 28 2013, 10:46pm

Post #10 of 28 (318 views)
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The world was fair in Durin's day [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you heard the version of that song by the Tolkien Ensemble? - rather good; the middle bit is like a Welsh male voice choir (quite appropriate for mining Dwarves). It's on one of their Rivendell albums of songs from LOTR but I think they've done a reissue of the songs since


bruinen
Bree


Jul 29 2013, 12:00am

Post #11 of 28 (273 views)
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I like your thinking, Idril! [In reply to] Can't Post

And hoping you're right!

My Avatar: the desk Tolkien used when he wrote The Hobbit...now on display at Wheaton College.


bruinen
Bree


Jul 29 2013, 12:02am

Post #12 of 28 (285 views)
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Ooooo... [In reply to] Can't Post

I will look for this!

My Avatar: the desk Tolkien used when he wrote The Hobbit...now on display at Wheaton College.


Retro315
Rivendell

Jul 29 2013, 1:29am

Post #13 of 28 (262 views)
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Reply [In reply to] Can't Post

When I re-read The Hobbit last week the first thing I thought was that these exact songs would be ideal to depict, because the beginning of each film would then have a somber reminder of "who the dwarves are" from the first movie. After all, though they've been introduced, as many of us will attest, we haven't quite gotten to know them. At least, not all of them.

It'd be an easy way to keep their characterization consistent, as well as a way to demarcate the "three acts" of their journey. Actually the bit in Erebor to cheer Thorin up came later than I expect the break between films two and three, but I'd be okay with them moving the actual singing up a bit in the timeline of events.

The dwarves find very few places they can really get a good "rest", or we the audience can feel at home (they did not feel at home in Rivendell). They felt comfortable enough in Bilbo's home to sing around the fireplace, it stands to reason that they might feel comfortable enough in Beorn's home to do the same, sit in a circle around the fire and do a bit of chanting. And as sure as those two places feel "home-like", Erebor IS their home.

As far as the music itself to which the words go; I wouldn't want a reprisal of the now iconic tune to Over the Misty Mountains. Nor should it be, nor does if have to be.

I would however like it to be an evolution of "Misty Mountains". The same way The Two Towers gave us a reprisal of the angelic Elvish music, except suddenly it was a War March, or the kind of musical cultural evolution that the Rohan themes really perfected.

If "Withered Heath" could be even more morose, less like a vow and more like a painful song, to help build on the narrative theme of entering the dark, twisted forest and maybe never making it out the other side, then perhaps "Under the Mountain" could be the March version of it.

With tempo changes, flourishes and the rest, naturally. Maybe a lone, sad instrument for 'Withered Heath' (Dwalin's violin comes to mind) and then proper horns and drums for 'Under the Mountain'.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 2:27am

Post #14 of 28 (243 views)
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I have not! Only a rendering in poem form by Tolkien. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Have you heard the version of that song by the Tolkien Ensemble? - rather good; the middle bit is like a Welsh male voice choir (quite appropriate for mining Dwarves). It's on one of their Rivendell albums of songs from LOTR but I think they've done a reissue of the songs since


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 1:12pm

Post #15 of 28 (183 views)
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Symbolism of 'Wind on the Withered Heaath' [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If "Withered Heath" could be even more morose, less like a vow and more like a painful song, to help build on the narrative theme of entering the dark, twisted forest and maybe never making it out the other side, then perhaps "Under the Mountain" could be the March version of it.

With tempo changes, flourishes and the rest, naturally. Maybe a lone, sad instrument for 'Withered Heath' (Dwalin's violin comes to mind) and then proper horns and drums for 'Under the Mountain'.



My impression is that "Wind on the Withered Heath" represents the Dwarves' determination to reclaim their own from the dragon. A vow is actually a good way to describe it. It needn't use the same melody as the "Misty Mountains" song, but it would certainly fit. At this point, any instruments that the Dwarves took with them would have probably been lost (or destroyed when the Great Goblin fell on them), but if so, they might find something in Beorn's lodge.

The "Under the Mountain" song that the Dwarves sing to Thorin in his halls probably should use the same melody as "Misty Mountains" as it is a direct follow-up to the original song.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


bruinen
Bree


Jul 29 2013, 1:45pm

Post #16 of 28 (188 views)
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Found a link to the Tolkien Ensemble performance you referenced... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.ouvirmusica.com.br/...is-acessadas/2499891

The Song of Durin, performed by the Tolkien Ensemble. Poem appears in FotR, Chapter 4, A Journey in the Dark.

Gimli sings this in Moria, the night before they find Balin's tomb. (It's fair to say that Thorin and Co. would have also known this song, however.)

Tolkien describes it as a chant. The Tolkien Ensemble performs it more like a hymn--though the treatment of each stanza varies nicely.

I did particularly like how they've done the last stanza (the world is grey, the mountains cold...)--would totally love to hear RA sing that deep bass acapella...with the last two lines sung by the company. Heart

And of course, in FotR, Sam particularly liked the line "in Moria, in Khazad Dum."

Thanks for sharing, Na Vedui! Very cool.

My Avatar: the desk Tolkien used when he wrote The Hobbit...now on display at Wheaton College.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Jul 29 2013, 1:58pm

Post #17 of 28 (178 views)
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What other songs from the book might we hear? [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ said that we'd be getting more of the songs from the book. But AUJ had less singing than any of the LotR films

I wonder what songs are to come. We know the Extended Edition has a longer version of the Great Goblin's song and (possibly) the Man in the Moon.

Tra-la-la-la-lee Was removed from Rivendell. Fifteen Birds was removed from Out of the Frying Pan.

What else is there?


bruinen
Bree


Jul 29 2013, 2:00pm

Post #18 of 28 (190 views)
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Not dwarven, but hoping for... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Bilbo or Gandalf to sing at least a bit of Roads Go Ever Ever On at the end of TABA, right before Gandalf says, "My dear Bilbo! Something is the matter with you! You are not the hobbit that you were."

It's the song of a war veteran returning home, and the bridge to the opening of FotR, after all!

(We don't find out until...when? A year and half from now??? Argh.)

My Avatar: the desk Tolkien used when he wrote The Hobbit...now on display at Wheaton College.


bruinen
Bree


Jul 29 2013, 2:02pm

Post #19 of 28 (175 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

I, for one, did not miss Tra-la-la-lally. Laugh Always viewed the original Rivendell elves as a bit too1920s flapper...

My Avatar: the desk Tolkien used when he wrote The Hobbit...now on display at Wheaton College.


bruinen
Bree


Jul 29 2013, 2:08pm

Post #20 of 28 (177 views)
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Stomp, anyone? That could be very fun...they've got the boots for it! [In reply to] Can't Post

And I agree that there's likely no surviving instruments. Though Bofur could have his pennywhistle tucked away inside his coat, I suppose. Apparently all Oin needs is a teapot! They're certainly adept at using cutlery for percussion.

And wind on the withered heath is certainly quite a strong image of desolation...I would think this would evoke either a very sad or deeply angry song, perhaps.

My Avatar: the desk Tolkien used when he wrote The Hobbit...now on display at Wheaton College.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 29 2013, 2:34pm

Post #21 of 28 (166 views)
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Please, no Stomp... [In reply to] Can't Post

...my wife is already prone to headaches.

As to non-dwarven songs/poems, I earlier mentioned a good possibility for "The Mountain-king's Return" in Lake-town. In Rivendell, the Elves' first song "The Dragon is Withered" probably wouldn't make the cut (more "Tra-la-la-lally"), but we could get "Sing All ye Joyful, Now Sing All Together!".

And, of course, I am really hopng that upon seening his home again, Bilbo recites his poem:

Roads go ever ever on,
Over rock and under tree,
By caves where never sun has shone,
By streams that never find the sea;
Over snow by winter sown,
And through the merry flowers of June,
Over grass and over stone,
And under the mountains of the moon.

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star,
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on windows green
And trees and hills they long have known.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


bruinen
Bree


Jul 29 2013, 2:46pm

Post #22 of 28 (181 views)
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Gee, blunt the knives... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is part stomp already. Cool

Wouldn't wish headaches on anyone, though. Crazy

My Avatar: the desk Tolkien used when he wrote The Hobbit...now on display at Wheaton College.


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Jul 29 2013, 3:53pm

Post #23 of 28 (136 views)
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Pretty much anything sung by Dwarves is going to be part stomp. Unless it's all stomp.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 




Werde Spinner
Rohan


Jul 29 2013, 4:17pm

Post #24 of 28 (146 views)
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Yes, please! [In reply to] Can't Post

Any more singing (especially by the Dwarves) would be greatly appreciated here. 'Blunt the Knives' and 'MIsty Mountains' rank among the highlights of AUJ for me.

I very much think that the 'withered heath' song would fit in strongly with the whole theme of darkness and desolation that the trailer and even the very name of DOS itself have going on. It would stress how much damage Smaug caused and how much the Dwarves have lost. It should probably have a different tune from 'Misty Mountains', however - or at least by a sort of organic offshoot from that tune, or it'd be very easy to confuse them. I can see it as being a sort of 'variation on a theme', but I think it should be distinct.

As others have suggested, 'The world was fair..' one would also be an excellent addition, in my opinion. Can somehow see it sung in a melancholy sort of way, upon viewing the destruction of Erebor and remembering how it once stood in all its splendor.

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


RosieLass
Valinor


Jul 29 2013, 4:32pm

Post #25 of 28 (136 views)
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I do, too! [In reply to] Can't Post

The movies need more songs, period.

I really missed the songs in LOTR, too.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

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