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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM Day Five- The Lord of the Rings topics
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Jul 25 2013, 4:56pm

Post #26 of 68 (201 views)
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interesting... [In reply to] Can't Post

and I would have to re-read the fall of Numenor section but I believe his loss of that ability was directly tied to the physical death of his body when they attacked Valinor??? But I could be mistaken.

Not all who wander are lost


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 25 2013, 5:09pm

Post #27 of 68 (207 views)
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Logic [In reply to] Can't Post

Logic is a tool. It cannot make decisions. We do, and act on our own interpretation of the facts. Likened to a computer, for instance, it can only report back on facts, and can only act on direction from us, live or programmed. It can make no moral judgements or say what is right of wrong, we have our own standards for that.

Saruman could have reasoned it out in perfect logic, but have taken the wrong moral turn. Pure logic doesn't take anything for granted, but when we want to apply it to a situation, we have to base our arguments on what we consider to be true, and what we believe. If we have a twisted or incomplete picture, we can make the wrong choice. (See Sauron's manipulation of the Palantiri)

His thoughts and reasons, may have gone like this.

We can't win---- (which he couldn't know for sure, a fallacy and opinion)

Then we must join Sauron------( because I want to live)

His thoughts were colored by his personal desire to live, and misrepresented facts.

Oh, and he ended up being shown that he wrong BTW!


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 25 2013, 5:12pm

Post #28 of 68 (197 views)
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No - you are quite correct! Was merely veering wildly into philosophy there...! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and I would have to re-read the fall of Numenor section but I believe his loss of that ability was directly tied to the physical death of his body when they attacked Valinor??? But I could be mistaken.


The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 25 2013, 6:10pm

Post #29 of 68 (197 views)
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Good analysis of Sarumans (faulty) reasoning [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Logic is a tool. It cannot make decisions....
Saruman could have reasoned it out in perfect logic, but have taken the wrong moral turn. Pure logic doesn't take anything for granted, but when we want to apply it to a situation, we have to base our arguments on what we consider to be true, and what we believe. If we have a twisted or incomplete picture, we can make the wrong choice. (See Sauron's manipulation of the Palantiri)

His thoughts and reasons, may have gone like this.

We can't win---- (which he couldn't know for sure, a fallacy and opinion)

Then we must join Sauron------( because I want to live)

His thoughts were colored by his personal desire to live, and misrepresented facts.

Oh, and he ended up being shown that he wrong BTW!


The faulty "Sauron cannot be defeated" axiom is partly due to the baleful effect of too much screen time on the palantirs. But also I think RangerfromtheNorth's article comes in here: Saruman thinks in terms of power, and power is the wrong answer to power, in this case.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 25 2013, 8:29pm

Post #30 of 68 (184 views)
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I think that the Elves ... [In reply to] Can't Post

very much did work with nature for their healing- but not "using" it. I believe they learned to understand the power in the rivers, the trees, in plants etc, ie to see the whole of nature as healing if one knows how to "tune into it". This mirrors early beliefs about healing, especially in Medieval times (by which I mean particularly early Medieval period). Hildegard of Bingen was an 11th century nun, who was renowned as a healer and wrote several treatises and theories on healing. Part of her belief was that God had put everything that mankind needed into the world that was needed for sustenance and healing, but humankind could not always see this. I don't know if Tolkien read any of Hildegard's work, but I can imagine him liking this sort of theory given his faith and love of the natural world. I rather like it myself and who knows? Maybe there is some truth in it- many modern drugs were originally derived from plants, even if the active molecules were later refined and patented, and there are many new areas of research into natural sources of medications etc.


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



elaen32
Gondor


Jul 25 2013, 8:41pm

Post #31 of 68 (178 views)
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I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that it was not Gandalf's role to heal those in the Houses of Healing, but to facilitate Aragorn's coming and healing of the sick, so that he could be recognised as the King. Part of Gandalf's role to manipulate events and thus bring wider healing to Middle-earth

With regards to Theoden, I always see this as a spiritual sickness, although one does wonder what Wormtongue has been giving to him. Theoden says to him "Your leechcraft would have had me crawling on all fours like a beast" (or words to that effect), implying that Wormtongue was ministering to him in some form imo Maybe he was giving Theoden some sort of hallucinogen and then whispering the twisted words of Saruman in Theoden's ear. Theoden, hearing these words and under the influence of this then became increasingly paranoid, lethargic and spiritually sick. Gandalf's intervention breaks through this delusion and allows Theoden to think clearly again. In the movies I think that they had to give some physical representation of Theoden's fall and rise, because the description in the book is probably a bit too subtle for film


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



elaen32
Gondor


Jul 25 2013, 8:46pm

Post #32 of 68 (182 views)
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Yes, I agree (see my post just upthread) [In reply to] Can't Post

as for biological explanations as to why only the King can use athelas effectively, I'm not so sure! From the text, I get the impression that elves can also use athelas- Elrond and his sons seem to. Elladan and Elrohir are described as going out into the city with Aragorn to help him heal the many people who are suffering from the effects of the "black shadow", so presumably they use athelas too. Maybe in the Numenorean Kings, it is their Elvish genes showing through!


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



elaen32
Gondor


Jul 25 2013, 8:59pm

Post #33 of 68 (174 views)
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Very much enjoyed reading this Lothwen [In reply to] Can't Post

I love the examples that you use and they really are instances of the characters trusting to their instinct rather than cool logic only. As you say, why would you believe, using evidence of your eyes alone, that Aragorn was the true King of Gondor? I am sure that we all have examples in our own lives when we've acted on instinct and intuition rather than what, on the surface, seems to be correct. In my RL job, which I'm sure many realise is as a doctor, one sometimes just has to go with one's gut feeling (pardon the pun). I have seen people whose symptoms are not typical of something, but I am sure that is what they have- one notable one that I remember was a young woman with severe headache- I was sure that she had an acute brain haemorrhage, but apart from the headache, she had no other symptoms or signs of this., but something was nagging at me that things were not right. I am so glad that I argued with the duty neurologist to admit her to hospital, because I was proved right (not blowing my own trumpet here, just giving it as an example)

So what gives us these flashes of intuition which defy the norms of logic? In Tolkien, it sometimes appears that it might be the Valar, or even Eru. In RL, people, I guess, would argue as to whether it is God, Fate or just one's own inate judgement


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 25 2013, 10:14pm

Post #34 of 68 (175 views)
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This sounds very much like something JRRT would have believed for the Elves [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
very much did work with nature for their healing- but not "using" it. I believe they learned to understand the power in the rivers, the trees, in plants etc, ie to see the whole of nature as healing if one knows how to "tune into it".




Use with domination, cooperation without control. Symbiotic versus exploitive. Beautiful sentiment! Cool

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 25 2013, 11:06pm

Post #35 of 68 (184 views)
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Regarding power... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
power is easily corrupted and the Ring feeds off of and corrupts power by creating a lust for more of it.


I think a point that is often missed in such a discussion is this: Power is simply a force which may be applied in any direction, therefore power in itself is not evil. However, the Ring does not represent mere power, it was created for a purpose by its creator, therefore its power is directed to a specific end (domination of others) and will corrupt any other with which it is combined by pulling that person's desire and power to align with its own agenda. It's like a gun with a bent barrel - any power sent through it will come out crooked. Aim it at anything you want, but that bent trajectory will be there every time.

Gollum is offered the fulfillment of all his lusts - he'll have all the fish he wants and get back at everyone who treated him badly.
Galadriel is offered the undisputed rule of Middle-earth
Gandalf is offered the apparent fulfillment of his mission as the overcomer of Sauron and the healer of the land
Boromir is offered the rescue of Gondor and the glory that would come from it.
Sam is offered the world as his garden.
Faramir would no doubt have been offered the same as Boromir, with the added incentive of gaining his father's love and approval

Fittingly enough, the two hobbits who resisted its effects longest have the least controlling motives. Bilbo's desire at the time he picked up the Ring was simply self-preservation, and he got that...even to being able to conveniently avoid Lobelia as needed in later years. But he didn't seem to want much more than that, and in the end he was able (with a push from Gandalf) to give that up, and resorted to physical disappearance by going to live in Rivendell. Frodo took the Ring out of a desire to save others, and it was only at the end that he broke down and wanted the Ring for himself because he'd simply gone through too much to give it up...perhaps a form of self-pity?

To blend this topic with an earlier one - the Ring could be said to represent utter selfishness, the antithesis of Love. Or, one could even say Greed - greed for power. The temptation it creates for each person who comes near it or into contact with it is to promise them the thing they want for themselves. But being a totally selfish power, the fulfillment of the desire will put the wearer first and use all others to achieve that end. Sacrificial Love for others seems to be the best antidote to the Ring. Bilbo began his ownership with a theft, and it could well be argued that that influenced his decision to take the Arkenstone for himself. But when the battle threatened, his conscience (inner voice) overcame it and he gave up the object of his greed to save everyone. Frodo exemplifies this concept because he was given the Ring - the only person ever to receive it as a gift rather than take it, and his capacity to love others and sacrifice himself on their behalf took him all the way to the Crack of Doom before the Ring could overcome it and make him claim anything for himself. This, of course, reflects Tolkien's beliefs as clearly as anything in his writings. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13


Quote
As far as having power returned to when said servants are killed, I am not sure. I could see an argument for yes and no. I am going to have mull that one over for a bit.


I don't think power is returned when the servants of the Ringlord's will die, because I don't think the source of the power ever resided in them to be lost. Think of it as the Ringlord's will being sent out like radio waves to remote controlled devices. If the device fails, it doesn't affect the power source of the transmission at all, because that resides in the Ring. All that is affected is the ability of the device to respond to commands.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 25 2013, 11:23pm

Post #36 of 68 (166 views)
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Use withOUT domination, cooperation without control. Symbiotic versus exploitive. Beautiful sentiment [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what I meant. Crazy

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









sevilodorf
Gondor


Jul 26 2013, 2:30am

Post #37 of 68 (170 views)
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Well thought out [In reply to] Can't Post

but totally unfair of you to end with the ambiguousness of Tom Bombadil....

Tom obviously has power... power that should be amplified by the Ring... is it that Tom possesses no desire for more... no greed, which is at the root of nearly all sins. Tom has set the borders of his land/powers and chooses not to look beyond them.

And I will offer a slight disagreement.... Frodo did have a natural power. The power to withstand change...along with a large dose of what saved Sam when he wore the ring .. plain out hobbit sense.

"he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, ... The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due."

A quote which also ties back to my thoughts about Tom.

Thank you for a thought provoking essay.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com





Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 26 2013, 3:50am

Post #38 of 68 (159 views)
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Besting Power with Power [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are trying to fight something with itself, or it's own means, you can only add to the conflict. It could also turn into an arms race, cue another cold war that could turn hot at any moment. I think that in making the PURSUIT of power important, it got away from Saruman. To fight wrong, you need to do something different than they are, or you may be bent into their shape.

If you fight fire with fire, all you get is a bigger fire


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 26 2013, 6:17am

Post #39 of 68 (164 views)
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Great analysis Ranger! [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your comment that not even Sauron himself could voluntarily give up or destroy the Ring. I wonder what would have happened if he found a way to make an even greater and more powerful Ring? I note that you say that no incarnate being in Arda could resist the power of the Ring and agree that the more powerful are at greater risk from its effects. However, whilst incarnate Gandalf would be adversely affected by the Ring, would pure spirit Olorin still be affected? And would the Valar themselves be affected if in their spiritual form? I have to say that I don't believe that they would. That would make the Ring more powerful than Manwe, Varda etc and, by derivation, imply that Sauron, whose innate power fuels the Ring, was more powerful than they. This seems somehow wrong to me. But I do agree that on taking form, these spirits are more vulnerable. I do wonder if Gandalf, in the body of an old man, whereby his great spirit is somewhat contained, even trapped, would have responded to the Ring somewhat differently than, say, if he had been a Maia in an Elven-type hroar.

It is interesting that the Ring seeks and works its evil via the deepest desires of its victims hearts- as you state- offering them what they would otherwise think impossible. It reminds me of the RL equivalent- although on a slightly more benign scale, of cookies on websites- reading keywords that we type and adjusting the advertisements on the page to what it thinks we desire, offering temptations. Are you reading this Mr Google?!

And just to finish in the same vein as you did- so, does Tom Bombadil's apparent resistance to the blandishments of the Ring support the theory that Tom is, in fact, Eru personified?Evil


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 26 2013, 9:36am

Post #40 of 68 (155 views)
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Lost ring, undiminished power? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems completely sensible, doesn't it, that Sauron is less powerful once he's lost the ring. But wrong, according to Tolkien. The Fellowship of the Room did a good job straightening me out over this on an earlier thread, if that is of interest. We had some fun with financial analogies...

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 26 2013, 10:15am

Post #41 of 68 (159 views)
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The KIND of power the Ring embodies is particularly harmful [In reply to] Can't Post

Great points, Silverlode - the Ring usually finds the right weakness (except possibly when it affects Sam: it offers him fantasies of power - I sometimes wonder what would have happen had it proposed that using it was the only way to save Frodo...)

Power, as you say, is "the ability to do something". I think it's important to consider the kind of power the Ring embodies - beyond invisibility and longevity. It is the will to dominate; to make others do things against their wishes. That is a kind of power which is morally risky (as well as dangerously addictive) - if I make you do something, I necessarily trample on your free will, because I've removed your choice to do something different. So the kind of power embodied in it makes the One Ring a very different thing from, say the elven rings with their power to preserve.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 26 2013, 8:52pm

Post #42 of 68 (149 views)
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Could it contemplate that? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Great points, Silverlode - the Ring usually finds the right weakness (except possibly when it affects Sam: it offers him fantasies of power - I sometimes wonder what would have happen had it proposed that using it was the only way to save Frodo...)




I wonder if that offering was sort of a closed book to it, imbued with Sauron's spirit?

If it was offered I shudder to think of the consequences. That might have been the one thing to break Sam. But therin lies the essential difference that underlies the cultures, which is one reason Hobbits were so excellent to set against the Dark Lord. What hope could he have of ever understanding their thoughts?

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 27 2013, 7:41am

Post #43 of 68 (139 views)
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Probably not…which means… [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Replying to...

Great points, Silverlode - the Ring usually finds the right weakness (except possibly when it affects Sam: it offers him fantasies of power - I sometimes wonder what would have happen had it proposed that using it was the only way to save Frodo...)


To which Brethil replied:


I wonder if that offering was sort of a closed book to it, imbued with Sauron's spirit?

If it was offered I shudder to think of the consequences. That might have been the one thing to break Sam. But therin lies the essential difference that underlies the cultures, which is one reason Hobbits were so excellent to set against the Dark Lord. What hope could he have of ever understanding their thoughts?


And my thoughts on that are:

Quite likely not - the Ring maybe unable to "understand" anything so selfless.
But if so, that reveals something interesting; that its not enough to have a goal that could be achieved by domination - the domination in itself must be tempting.

So, compare Boromir's temptation scene: yes he wants the Ring because he thinks he can save Gondor with it. But his speech "how men would flock to my banner!" Tells us that there's something egotistical going on too: the power and attention is something he wants in itself. And that's one reason it wouldn't stop with the defeat of Sauron.

Sam is willing to do all kinds of things to achieve his duty, but he hates being in charge, and is embarrassed by anyone admiring him or putting him in a position of importance. He'd rather serve Frodo than sit in elite company at the Rivendell feast. In the Scouring sequence someone remarks, in Rosie's hearing, how well regarded Sam is outside the Shire. He's genuinely discomfited (as well as greatfull).

Sam's a kind of anti-Sauron, come to think of it.

Possibly that's why it doesn't affect Bombadill either: no seed of megalomania or narcissism to nurture?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Terazed
Bree

Jul 27 2013, 2:53pm

Post #44 of 68 (132 views)
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What about mortality? [In reply to] Can't Post

What an interesting question and interesting read.

My question is what about mortality? One thing that we know about the ring is that it grants long life. Could it be the one reason why Frodo's quest is the only possible one that could succeed is that the ring can not comprehend mortality? Look at Bilbo's case. One of the factors that helps him to voluntarily give up the ring is that he does not like the stretched out feeling of the immortality the ring gives him. He rejects immortality as unnatural and a negative effect. Then there is Frodo. In his case the longer he has the ring the more he understands that he is on a one way mission to destroy the ring. I have always had the feeling that by the time Frodo reached Mount Doom he has realized that the only way the ring is going into the fire is if he goes along with it. He fails at the end but fate intervenes. His willingness to accept death throughout his quest rather then just use the power of the ring to save himself is what kept the ring from overcoming him.

That brings me to a slightly more controversial idea of mine that applies to the other rings as well. The final chapter of LoTR is "The Grey Havens". Now that the far West is no longer part of the circles of the world I have always felt taking the ships from the Grey Havens is a metaphor for death. The boat ride over the river Styx is after all one the oldest metaphors for death in Western mythology. So what do we have in the final pages of the book? We have Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel all voluntarily accepting (an at least metaphorical) mortality.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 27 2013, 2:57pm

Post #45 of 68 (124 views)
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Ego and temptation [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
And my thoughts on that are:
Quite likely not - the Ring maybe unable to "understand" anything so selfless.
But if so, that reveals something interesting; that its not enough to have a goal that could be achieved by domination - the domination in itself must be tempting.

So, compare Boromir's temptation scene: yes he wants the Ring because he thinks he can save Gondor with it. But his speech "how men would flock to my banner!" Tells us that there's something egotistical going on too: the power and attention is something he wants in itself. And that's one reason it wouldn't stop with the defeat of Sauron.

Sam is willing to do all kinds of things to achieve his duty, but he hates being in charge, and is embarrassed by anyone admiring him or putting him in a position of importance. He'd rather serve Frodo than sit in elite company at the Rivendell feast. In the Scouring sequence someone remarks, in Rosie's hearing, how well regarded Sam is outside the Shire. He's genuinely discomfited (as well as greatfull).

Sam's a kind of anti-Sauron, come to think of it.

Possibly that's why it doesn't affect Bombadill either: no seed of megalomania or narcissism to nurture?
Absolutely true with Boromir - and the way he is described as walking and musing out loud it almost appears that he does not even realize where his inner monologue drifts off to, unaware himself in those moments of how self centered the desire for the Ring is. I agree that the Ring cannot comprehend selflessness. It is as Gandalf says about Sauron - that the idea of sacrificing and destroying the Ring will not be something Sauron is contemplating or will understand. He would never willingly destroy a potential route to power. And we can bow with reverence before Gandalf's choice of Hobbits: the perfect medium, as odd as it first seems in FOTR. Bombadil is described as the pureness of science and reason, without the will to shape, change or dominate. So he is the idealized concept of the complete lack of narcissism, of pure observation! Definitely is part of the 'why' of the lack of effect of the Ring on Tom.

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 27 2013, 2:58pm)


Terazed
Bree

Jul 27 2013, 3:29pm

Post #46 of 68 (118 views)
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To be more concise [In reply to] Can't Post

To be more concise what I am saying is that "Would you destroy the Ring?" can be rephrased as: Can you accept your own mortality?


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 27 2013, 3:57pm

Post #47 of 68 (107 views)
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Great metaphor here Terazed! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
To be more concise what I am saying is that "Would you destroy the Ring?" can be rephrased as: Can you accept your own mortality?





I have always had the feeling that by the time Frodo reached Mount Doom he has realized that the only way the ring is going into the fire is if he goes along with it. He fails at the end but fate intervenes. His willingness to accept death throughout his quest rather then just use the power of the ring to save himself is what kept the ring from overcoming him. - Terazed

I agree and I think that the nature of the Quest at that point for Frodo has become of one self sacrifice; as though he wishes in his conscious mind to save all that he loves, he also knows he cannot destroy the Ring (or hand it to Sam, or surrender it to Sauron) and by definition achieving his goal will result in the destruction of himself. As JRRT says of Frodo in Letter # 181: "...a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision."

As you say, Fate intervenes; I would also say decision intervenes as well: the pity of both Bilbo and Frodo allow for the actions of Gollum, who does (accidentally) what Frodo could no longer do.

I think your question above: can you accept your own mortality? can translate into many 'wants'. It relates directly to the desire of Mortals to have what they want (greater than their fated allotment)...just as the creation of the Rings themselves gave the Elves something they wanted (also greater than their fated allotment). It gives Sauron more power than his fated allotment...a great metaphor for those of us in the Mortal realm, if confronted with the question of reaching out for more than we have been given.

That related directly back to Frodo, and his choices on the way to Mount Doom. That rejection of the power at hand, of not reaching out for another solution to save himself (thus accepting his mortality as the price to be paid) is hugely significant.


The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 27 2013, 5:38pm

Post #48 of 68 (102 views)
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Bravo, Terazed! Another really interesting observation. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 27 2013, 5:41pm

Post #49 of 68 (108 views)
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Sam is the only ringbearer… [In reply to] Can't Post

…to be reluctant to take the ring, and to hand it over with no struggle.

But I think it would have found +some+ way to get him in the end.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 28 2013, 1:00am

Post #50 of 68 (111 views)
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I think it would have [In reply to] Can't Post


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…to be reluctant to take the ring, and to hand it over with no struggle.

But I think it would have found +some+ way to get him in the end.




especially if Sam was tiring, and maybe out of exhaustion became a bit more self centered (hunger, thirst, fatigue). Or if it eventually 'got' Sam's weakness in caring for Frodo (a longer shot.)

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