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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 24 2013, 8:17pm
Post #76 of 110
(602 views)
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Powerful subjects: religion and politics...
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...and Wings and Films! 
Would dearly love to hear some of your anecdotes Geordie! 
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 24 2013, 8:21pm
Post #77 of 110
(620 views)
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We have lots of more interesting topics to discuss. Further back-and-forth will be removed.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jul 24 2013, 9:43pm
Post #78 of 110
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If you cut it right down to personal style he would have loved the way we debate in a very old fashioned way the whole Tolkien legacy as a deep echo of his conversations with his cronies in the 30's and 40's ,
BUT he would have found the fact that his work was now the province of substantial big business interests with any amount of collateral money making opportunities in games and figures and slot machines as deeply
inappropriate.
He was born into a world of terrible difficulties and witnessed dreadful carnage but he was a man of simple pleasures and love of old fashioned virtues. These films are made into a world he would surely of hated a good deal more than the failings of the films. The constantly connected/ dehumanised/ instant gratification/short attention span world in which we live would surely have made him think far less of his elves and far more of his orcs and would be pleased that these films at least echo something of his subcreation.
Would he not have forgiven PJ his failings and seen his tireless pursuit of the end result and endless tinkering until the last minute as worthy of respect if not agreement. The fact that several hundreds of people have given several years of their lives to these films and spent so much time on peripheral details reflecting their substantial commitment to bringing the matter to the screen would I am sure have impressed him. He was puzzled by fame but responded to peoples deep interest in his work and could not have failed to be moved by the visions of middle earth conjured up now and in the recent past. I find CT's sweeping dismissals some what curmudgeonly and whilst I accept his critique about the action emphasis I am not entirely sure that a good deal of his angst is directed at the whole atmosphere of marketing surrounding the films rather than getting into a lather over whether Beregond was in or out of the movie.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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GoBlue
The Shire
Jul 25 2013, 2:37am
Post #79 of 110
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If I could ask to add my opinion briefly,
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I think Christopher Tolkien is relevant to the main topic, and this sub topic, since he is the closest thing we have to JRR, and since he was so immersed in middle earth as JRR was writing and creating. I think the quotes from him and his father are very enlightening, and a very important addition to the discussion. Tom Shippey may have a lot of credibility, but my immediate thought was also that Christopher Tolkien would know better than any what his father may have thought (about the films). Of course, I know that even he couldn't say with absolute certainty.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Jul 25 2013, 7:39am
Post #80 of 110
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JRRT's response to Zimmermans film treatment gives a pretty good idea about how he felt about some changes at that point in time of his life.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 7:39am
Post #81 of 110
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That whole subplot was a naked attempt to "ratchet up the tension" (in Jackson's words, about many of his plot changes). Although some of them worked dramatically (e.g. adjusting the timelines to align Helm's Deep with Faramir "taking the hobbits to Minas Tirith"), this one lacked any vestige of logical foundation, leaving the viewer going, "Whaaaaattt???"
Leaving: Arwen had already, in FotR and the flashbacks in TTT, clearly asserted her understanding of what's at stake and her determination to commit to Aragorn. She agreed to go much too easily; it was inconsistent, out of character, and made no sense.
Dying: I suspect that this was a subplot that the writers came up with that somehow made sense to them at one point, but too many foundational scenes had to be cut (we saw stills and images in the trailer that were apparently part of this). No surviving rationale at all: was Sauron casting a spell? Are they obliquely talking about the fact that she will die if, having not sailed, they lose the war? Not grief, surely, her commitment (which I mentioned earlier) is now reinforced by her vision of Eldarion. Why on earth would she be dying?
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jul 25 2013, 7:41am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 7:52am
Post #82 of 110
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The tragedy of this is that the visuals were awesome. Seeing the clips in the trailer gave me chills. When I saw the movie in the theater I couldn't believe the scene had been cut.
Frankly, I loved WK on the Beast. It made no sense, in the book, for him to have been on a horse at the gate and then moments later on the Beast attacking Théoden. Putting him on the Beast was a good call.
The whole confrontation was magnificent, right up to the point at which Jackson apparently felt it necessary for Gandalf to lose (another "ratcheting up the tension"). That was just wrong. It would have been quite sufficient and effective to end it just as the book did, as "unfinished business."
I have often wondered why the scene was cut. Was it because Jackson realized having Gandalf lose was going too far? It would have been easy to cut away just a few seconds earlier. My darkest suspicion is that they were just out of time: they had 5 hours of film that had to fit in 3+.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 8:04am
Post #83 of 110
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Frankly, Jackson did much better than Zimmerman.
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A lot of Zimmerman's concepts, rightly deplored, were typical studio claptrap. Jackson made a very serious attempt to capture the spirit and, most successfully, the look of Middle Earth. It's really the fact that Jackson did so well and came so close that makes these debates have the lifespan they've had. Real disasters like the cartoons and what Zimmerman would have done would have been deplored and then ignored in the space of a few months.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Jul 25 2013, 11:20am
Post #84 of 110
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but on some points JRRT's opinion is very clear, such as Weathertop becoming an action sequence, which is somethibg Sir PJ also did not only on then but throughout the trilogy pretty much for the reasons you mention.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 25 2013, 2:28pm
Post #85 of 110
(487 views)
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Actually I think there is plenty of Hollywood silliness in Jackson's work -- different from Zimmerman's in some cases, but plenty of it; and I think enough of Tolkien's concerns about the script he read could be applied to Jackson's films.
It's really the fact that Jackson did so well and came so close that makes these debates have the lifespan they've had. Real disasters like the cartoons and what Zimmerman would have done would have been deplored and then ignored in the space of a few months.
I'm not sure I follow this. Debates live on when there are people on both sides of the issue, and I can't agree that there is still debate here because Jackson 'came so close', as I don't agree he did.
You seem to be arguing that all agreed upon disasters would be so universally agreed upon as disasters that they would have been deplored, ignored, and not debated.
OK, but isn't that because this would be essentially all agreed upon [in theory]?
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 25 2013, 2:29pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 2:43pm
Post #86 of 110
(481 views)
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That whole subplot was a naked attempt to "ratchet up the tension" (in Jackson's words, about many of his plot changes). Although some of them worked dramatically (e.g. adjusting the timelines to align Helm's Deep with Faramir "taking the hobbits to Minas Tirith"), this one lacked any vestige of logical foundation, leaving the viewer going, "Whaaaaattt???"
Leaving: Arwen had already, in FotR and the flashbacks in TTT, clearly asserted her understanding of what's at stake and her determination to commit to Aragorn. She agreed to go much too easily; it was inconsistent, out of character, and made no sense.
Dying: I suspect that this was a subplot that the writers came up with that somehow made sense to them at one point, but too many foundational scenes had to be cut (we saw stills and images in the trailer that were apparently part of this). No surviving rationale at all: was Sauron casting a spell? Are they obliquely talking about the fact that she will die if, having not sailed, they lose the war? Not grief, surely, her commitment (which I mentioned earlier) is now reinforced by her vision of Eldarion. Why on earth would she be dying?
I always felt that it was because in becoming mortal the protection of the strong Firstborn grace (spirit) that she was accustomed to having in Fallen Arda was stripped away, and the mere presence of the evil lurking overwhelmed her. Being innate and physically Firstborn (hroa) she could sense it more, yet with her grace and immortality gone (diminished fea) had no defense against it.
*Purely UUT!* (Loved your Reverend Tribute Elizabeth.)
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 25 2013, 2:57pm
Post #87 of 110
(480 views)
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"The failing...may then be ascribed... to the evil of Arda Marred..."
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"The failing of the strength of the body of Míriel may then be ascribed, with some reason, to the evil of Arda Marred, and her death be a thing unnatural."
-Mogoth's Ring, HoME X
In LOTR you have "Gilraen is dying" and in the Sil you have "Miriel is dying", so I don't see the problem with Jackson following Tolkien's lead and extrapolating the whole "Arwen is dying" mission... quest... thing...
******************************************
"The tragedy of territorial geeks is that they found the wonderful world of fantasy, then missed its point."
-Luke McKinney
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2013, 3:00pm
Post #88 of 110
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That is what I always thought, Darkenstone and Brethil.
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And that was before I read any of the books. I assumed that once she had made her choice to live with Aragorn, she began to lose her immortality.
I think of Elrond's line about 'grace' leaving her, then it cuts to her leaving....... I think.....
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 3:09pm
Post #89 of 110
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Excellent reference - thank you Darkstone! //
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The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 25 2013, 5:33pm
Post #90 of 110
(446 views)
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In LOTR you have "Gilraen is dying" and in the Sil you have "Miriel is dying", so I don't see the problem with Jackson following Tolkien's lead and extrapolating the whole "Arwen is dying" mission... quest... thing...
How is Arwen dying 'following Tolkien's lead'... what, in the sense that other female characters die?
Why bring Arda Marred into it? Arwen was relatively young by Elvish standards, and hadn't given birth to anyone...
... much less Feanor
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 6:16pm
Post #91 of 110
(435 views)
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She knew the consequences of her choice as early as FotR. And she was still just as mortal, and Arda just as marred, after Sauron fell, even though she was no longer "dying". The implication, in the scene where Elrond brought Anduril to Aragorn, was that somehow victory in the war would "save" her, so obviously something far more immediately consequential than simply losing the "grace of the Eldar" was implied. That is what doesn't make any sense.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jul 25 2013, 6:18pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 7:32pm
Post #92 of 110
(430 views)
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Yes, but I think the whole point they were making...
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... well at least, that's how it seemed to me, was that she had chosen Aragorn, therefore she would die. Her choice was made and there was no place for her on the ships. The only remaining chance of immortality for her would be the one human beings have - a child to carry her line into the future.
Aragorn's victory did save her in that sense. Because he accepted the challenge that came with the sword, fought the war and achieved his kingship they were able to marry and produce Eldarion - the future for them both and the reason why she turned her back on Elvish immortality. She accepted (eventual) death in order to produce life. If Aragorn had ducked the fight, or had failed, her sacrifice would have been for nothing.
I thought - still do think - that was a very neat piece of storytelling in the film. It dramatised the implications of the choice which Arwen did make in the book
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 25 2013, 7:39pm
Post #93 of 110
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"But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.
-Appendix A
It always tremendously annoyed me that she seemed to have no clue until the very end.
In the films it's made extremely clear she's fully aware right from the start.
******************************************
"The tragedy of territorial geeks is that they found the wonderful world of fantasy, then missed its point."
-Luke McKinney
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jul 25 2013, 8:38pm
Post #94 of 110
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What does she have no clue about? I've always read that as her not ever understanding (personally) the implications of death and mortality. Now she's experiencing it and the grief that comes with human death. It's one thing to hear about, read about, or even talk about something so monumental (or anything monumental), but it's quite another thing to experience it for the first time. In that case, I find it incredibly realistic that as Aragorn is dying, she's finally understanding the full weight of what she's chosen.
I think of it kind of like childbirth. It's something we just grow up hearing about, but it certainly didn't prepare me for the sheer beauty of the first time I saw an actual human being taking its first breath. I'd say the exact opposite is happening to Arwen when she says that.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 26 2013, 7:18am
Post #95 of 110
(399 views)
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Elrond implied her death was imminent...
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...unless Aragorn did something (in this case, go though the Paths of the Dead) to win the war. And in the deleted scenes that appeared in the trailer, she was portrayed as reclining, weak, preparing to breathe her last. This was particularly absurd, since it would take weeks for the eventual victory to occur.
There was no sign whatever that Aragorn was ducking this fight or anything else. He was fully committed at Helm's Deep and beyond. Had he failed she might have died eventually, but there's no logical reason she should have been actively "dying" at this point.
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aarondirebear
Bree
Jul 26 2013, 2:00pm
Post #96 of 110
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Why would any purist think Jackson's version is awesome?
That ignores the very definition of purist.
I agree with 0% of Jackson's changes. They are all unartistic and horrible. They were wielded with the level of respect that I would expect from a slash fiction author (which he nearly turned every scene of Frodo and Samwise into).
"Others are inclined to say that any two stories that are built round the same folk-lore motive, or are made up of a generally similar combination of such motives, are "the same stories." Statements of that kind are not true, they are not true in art or literature. It is precisely the colouring, the atmosphere, the unclassifiable individual details of a story, and above all the general purport that informs with life the undissected bones of the plot, that really count." J.R.R. Tolkien
(This post was edited by aarondirebear on Jul 26 2013, 2:04pm)
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aarondirebear
Bree
Jul 26 2013, 2:03pm
Post #97 of 110
(370 views)
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only way Bombadil would have worked is if Peter Jackson split the FOTR into two films, the scene would severely slow the pace of the film and also remove the "fear factor" the ring had on the audience because he puts it on and nothing happens.
So what? What's wrong with a slower pace? Does everything have to be non-stop fast paced action?
"Others are inclined to say that any two stories that are built round the same folk-lore motive, or are made up of a generally similar combination of such motives, are "the same stories." Statements of that kind are not true, they are not true in art or literature. It is precisely the colouring, the atmosphere, the unclassifiable individual details of a story, and above all the general purport that informs with life the undissected bones of the plot, that really count." J.R.R. Tolkien
(This post was edited by Hengist on Jul 26 2013, 3:09pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jul 26 2013, 3:20pm
Post #98 of 110
(351 views)
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Arwen ..Laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth
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Arwen chose to be of mortal kind but that did not of itself place upon her the burden of mortality. Aragorn chose to sleep knowing he would ultimately die, Arwen laid herself down to rest to conclude the sacrificial journey she had embarked upon, she could have fallen from her high promise and tried to live in Lorien in a reduced Galadriel like state.
Arwen provided Frodo with redemptive peace after her penitential prayer to the Valar which was revealed beautifully in the movie but hidden in the book.
Arwen help restore the kings of men through her union with Aragorn.
Her final test was to let go which she did with the uttermost grace.
The idea that by tying her self to the fortunes of Aragorn in the war of the ring meant she could be brought with in "Sauron's Ring" is for me a failure to understand the nature of the half eleven and the choices that they make which are voluntary and when made, carried out without coercion. Sauron could do many things but he could not affect the scion of Earendil and their choices which only the Valar and Eru can accept or reject. The grace granted to the Half Elven was beyond Sauron. He could bewitch them particularly the line of Elros, mislead them but he could not change them from within or cast some kind of spiritual spell or shadow on them.
... well at least, that's how it seemed to me, was that she had chosen Aragorn, therefore she would die. Her choice was made and there was no place for her on the ships. The only remaining chance of immortality for her would be the one human beings have - a child to carry her line into the future.
Aragorn's victory did save her in that sense. Because he accepted the challenge that came with the sword, fought the war and achieved his kingship they were able to marry and produce Eldarion - the future for them both and the reason why she turned her back on Elvish immortality. She accepted (eventual) death in order to produce life. If Aragorn had ducked the fight, or had failed, her sacrifice would have been for nothing.
I thought - still do think - that was a very neat piece of storytelling in the film. It dramatised the implications of the choice which Arwen did make in the book
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 26 2013, 3:26pm)
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 26 2013, 3:57pm
Post #99 of 110
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Is it too late to walk into this thread and declare I am the real purist?
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It doesn't involve much. You just have to be a fan of the talking purse. No need to bow to me.
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 26 2013, 4:10pm
Post #100 of 110
(333 views)
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Maybe we should have a contest.
'So you think you're a fan?'
We can have challenges and vote off the weakest preformer.
Just kidding......though it would be cool to have a ME/Tolkien themed gameshow!
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