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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 25 2013, 10:57am
Post #5 of 68
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I'm trying to think whether or not ...
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Intuition is a strong theme/motif in The Hobbit as well. My mind has gone completely black at the moment, and the only example I can think of is that Gandalf's intuition tells him that Bilbo *must* go with the Company. I'm sure there are many other examples!
Great essay, thank you. 
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 25 2013, 11:51am
Post #7 of 68
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Very well written and interesting essay RangerfromtheNorth
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The more power someone has the more they are under the corrupting influence of the Ring, Tolkien asserts: “A person of greater native power [than Frodo] could probably never have resisted the Ring’s lure so long…” Frodo was the perfect Ring-bearer because of his lack of inherent power. If Frodo had more power, then he would have fallen sooner to the Ring. The more power someone has the more the Ring has to corrupt. Purity and power will not remove someone from the influence of the Ring if they wear it.
Based on the above, no other character in Tolkien's book would have been able to destroy the Ring. The Ring uses both its power and the desires of others to evoke evil deeds. That is what the Ring could plays on - people's weaknesses. Eowyn wanted renown in battle, Gimli would have probably used it to rule over Moria for all of time, curiosity would have got the better of Pippin (just like the palantir), Legolas may have wished to bring Mirkwood out from the Darkness, and so on. And that is perhaps rather frightening. The Ring can possess *anyone*. And so to answer your question, no. No, I couldn't destroy the Ring. I wouldn't be able to resist the temptation. 
An interesting topic of conversation might be who we think would be a better Ringbearer *after* Frodo. Here's my list, in order of preference
1. Frodo -> would not have given up the Ring voluntarily
2. Sam
3. Gandalf -> Neither Sam or Gandalf would have willingly attacked Frodo for the Ring, I think.
4. Legolas
5. Aragorn -> Like all Men, who would have succombed to the Ring's power sooner rather than later
6. Merry
7. Gimli -> If he has seen Moria and then heard of the Battle in Dale during the War of the Ring, he may have been tempted
8. Pippin -> He is too inquisitve, and out of the Hobbits, doesn't really understand the situation
9. Boromir -> Obvious reasons
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 1:32pm
Post #9 of 68
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in responding to the inner voice!
Very original choice of text citations too!
As far as the intuition goes, can we further speculate that the origin of the intuition may be somehow divine? Or, considering JRRT's love of nature and his faith in human nature that it is a 'natural' and elemental sort of wisdom?
I agree with your point that it never goes well when that inner voice is denied.
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 25 2013, 1:32pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 1:50pm
Post #10 of 68
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An excellent essay RangerfrontheNorth! I like your use of citations from Letters as well as the texts.
Interesting idea Daniel, to list the potential second-choice bearers. I agree with the bulk of your list BUT I would swap out Gimli and Gandalf, placing Gandalf lower on the list and in higher peril. The Dwarves were resistant to the effects of the Seven as Sauron intended (they could not be spiritually dominated) and one could hope, in hood company, that perhaps Gimli could avoid having his will imposed upon longer than another race. But that would depend on the paring with Legolas I think, on the trip to Mount Doom.
I think overall there is a divine wisdom at the foot of it all, in the foresight of Gandalf's Maiar origins. In UT we read that he has an unknown 'feeling' about Bilbo before the Quest, which he cannot identify but which tells him to keep that Hobbit in mind. He follows it (as Lothwen points out, always the right choice!) and has to wrestle both Thorin and Bilbo into the trip...and the results are as follows.
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 25 2013, 1:50pm)
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Jul 25 2013, 2:05pm
Post #11 of 68
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tolkien wrote in other places that it was not Frodo who destroyed the Ring, but actually the work of Eru, a divine plan, because evil cannot be destroyed, Tolkien insisted, by incarnate beings. Now there is an essay worth considering, how Eru played a prominent role in all that occurred in LoTR. Often times he gets a bad rap, but once we read some Tolkien's own reflections on the matter we see the hand of providence at work throughout LoTR
Not all who wander are lost
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 2:12pm
Post #12 of 68
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Wonderful delineation by each character Elaen! Very much enjoyed it!
I find JRRT's description of Aragorn's hands as the hands of a healer a wonderful tie-in to real world lore, as for many ages it was believed that the touch of the rightful anointed king could heal such ills as scrofula, and the many Biblical healing legends regarding sacred touch healing leprosy. In his way of 'reporting' events it would serve as the origin of those beliefs in later real world life.
Could the interaction of Gandalf and Ioreth, and Gandalf calling for herbs for Aragorn's use be the first sign that he is retreating from Middle-earth? His work is done - and by stepping back, praising Ioreth for her wisdom, and allowing the King to heal he is actually healing Middle-earth to move forward?
I re-read Gandalf's healing of Théoden. As you say, no specifics are given. Gandalf seems to draw in the darkness (understanding it?) and then dispels it with his staff and the white light. It must represent a very spiritual type of healing - in Letter's JRRT mentions often how essential and beyond description the value and sacredness of 'light'. So my guess is this is a very Maiar function, in this time, as he does not even address he physical body (hroa) of Théoden, but *seems* to be dealing with issues of the fea instead.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2013, 2:13pm
Post #13 of 68
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I had always assumed that Sauron 'lost' part of his power to the Ring, thus with it he would be able to 'regain' it. Though true that he would 'regain' his lost power, it is more correct to say that his power would be 'amplified' again. This essay has changed my view of the events in the LotR entirely, anothe excuse to re-read it.
The idea that the Ring 'feeds on power' is brilliant. Power would seem to be a catalyst to the process of corruption.
But is it the Power that corrupts, is Power specifically Evil?
Personally, I would have to say no. It is Power, beyond our ability that corrupts--that which we are not ready to handle.
Now a question for you.
How would you compare the lessening of Sauron's power to that of Morgoth?
I get the impression from the Sil, that Melkor lost his power as he put it into his servants.
Do you think that as the servants were killed that the power returned to him or was lost?
Perhaps his power was just spread out to dominate the wills of his servants?
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Jul 25 2013, 2:25pm
Post #14 of 68
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I remember reading that the Ring gave Sauron the ability to control/deceive others better. But Tolkien also said that Sauron's power was greatly exerted through his dominion of others and thus somewhat lessened much like Morgoth pouring himself into Arda so he was lessened in his power to an extent. I believe Sauron's is similar to that especially when he was not in possession of the Ring.
I do not think power is evil, but rather that power is easily corrupted and the Ring feeds off of and corrupts power by creating a lust for more of it.
As far as having power returned to when said servants are killed, I am not sure. I could see an argument for yes and no. I am going to have mull that one over for a bit.
Not all who wander are lost
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 2:35pm
Post #15 of 68
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tolkien wrote in other places that it was not Frodo who destroyed the Ring, but actually the work of Eru, a divine plan, because evil cannot be destroyed, Tolkien insisted, by incarnate beings. Now there is an essay worth considering, how Eru played a prominent role in all that occurred in LoTR. Often times he gets a bad rap, but once we read some Tolkien's own reflections on the matter we see the hand of providence at work throughout LoTR
Sounds like a great topic! I agree, but that was Eru's role: to let the Song play out once sung; free will is so important. Nothing that happens is outside of his thought - though the fates of Men are a bit of a loose cannon!
Coming back to your title question, as Daniel did, I'm afraid I might fail as well, if I simply found it! There was always an allure to me, of the silent companion that the Ring becomes: one who seems to understand your every thought. So it might have been a cave and raw fish for me...(blech.)
As part of a Fellowship, maybe I would fare better. But maybe not!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2013, 2:36pm
Post #16 of 68
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When Melkor goes to Formenos to seek out Feanor, Feanor closes his door in his face. Tolkien says:
"...and he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Ea."
I see three interpretations of this sentence:
It implies that his power was still greater than his peers, even though diminished.
His power had returned to him after his dominion was broken.
It means that he was the most dangerous, referring to his capacity for destruction, rather than a measure of power. He could use guile and cunning that no one else thought of.
What do you think that this implies, concerning Sauron and Morgoth?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 2:45pm
Post #17 of 68
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Bravo Lothwen - a lovely view of two themes, with a most effective choice of quotes.
In contrast to characters who do well by following their "heart" (as Gandalf puts it) would you put characters who follow cold logic? Saruman, for example eithe reasons himself into evil, or at least allows his intellect to construct a logical defence: Sauron cannot be defeated. Therefore he must be allied with. Since he is bound to prove a treacherous ally, he must be allied with as a prelude to betraying him. In Saruman's argument, if not in his heart, this is the least evil way forward
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 4:05pm
Post #18 of 68
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I enjoyed this essay! Great title by the way; the "would" is so nicely chosen
"Would I destroy it?" - well yes, at least to begin with I hope I would wish for it to be destroyed. But that would not last.
"Could I destroy it? - no, because nobody could do so voluntarily
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 4:28pm
Post #19 of 68
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I think the answer to why Gandalf doesn't pitch in with the athelas (or knowledge about it) is that he's allowing Aragorn to be seen as a healer and saviour of his people. Good plan.
But the interpretation in which only Aragorn can use the athelas because of fate/magic (or particular catalytic secretions in the skin of Numenoreans, If you'd like a fully biological explanation ) is plausible too.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Lothwen
Rivendell
Jul 25 2013, 4:33pm
Post #20 of 68
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I would certainly use him as a comparison. (Note how everything goes wrong for him.  ) Also, one could use Boromir. Yes, the ring corrupted him, but he was reasoning that the ring would solve all his troubles, save Gondor, etc. instead of trusting his gut-feeling as Faramir does.
Followed by that awkwarder moment when you realize that you think this is awesome...
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Lothwen
Rivendell
Jul 25 2013, 4:34pm
Post #21 of 68
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Personally, I like the idea that it's a deeper wisdom that they possess, and when they do follow it, it brings out their own courage further. However, in Sil. we do have cases of the Valar (particularly Ulmo) sending dreams to various characters. So it is just as (or more) possible that it came from the Valar or even Eru.
Both are very interesting thoughts.
Followed by that awkwarder moment when you realize that you think this is awesome...
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 4:36pm
Post #22 of 68
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Morgoth and Sauron: power in Arda
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?When Melkor goes to Formenos to seek out Feanor, Feanor closes his door in his face. Tolkien says:
"...and he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Ea."
I see three interpretations of this sentence:
It implies that his power was still greater than his peers, even though diminished.
His power had returned to him after his dominion was broken.
It means that he was the most dangerous, referring to his capacity for destruction, rather than a measure of power. He could use guile and cunning that no one else thought of.
What do you think that this implies, concerning Sauron and Morgoth
Third one is implied I think, because of the first two being true.
The implication may be different, as one is Valar and the other is Maiar. It seems to me (feeling here) that when Maiar come down into Arda more of their innate power is lost through incarnation. The Valar I don't think ever fully 'incarnate' except for Morgoth... but that eventually takes his powers of shape changing away, and locks him into his form (and its resultant deformations) , so in that sense one power is gone. So though he begins as the most powerful of the Valar perhaps that finally approximately even them all up (and is after the event you describe.)
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Jul 25 2013, 4:38pm
Post #23 of 68
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Sauron shifted incarnated forms too...
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that was part of his ability to deceive, until of course his physical raiment died in the whole Numenor thing, then he was limited to one form.
Not all who wander are lost
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