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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
On Azog

GiantMushroomBear
Bree

Jul 23 2013, 9:05pm

Post #1 of 25 (1008 views)
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On Azog Can't Post

Just a random thought: If Azog were given another name in the movie, or had just been a random unnamed orc, would we be as PO'd about his presence?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 23 2013, 10:48pm

Post #2 of 25 (476 views)
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Lefty???? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Claw

That Orc with the hook

Disabled Orc fighting for equality

Kitty attack survivor

Barbecue Sam

Mecha-Orc

The possibilities are endless.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 11:02pm

Post #3 of 25 (434 views)
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Yeah..Azog was Left-Handed! [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice Catch!
No WONDER he was soooo. PO'ed!

From Left-Handed
Bomby


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jul 24 2013, 12:00am

Post #4 of 25 (425 views)
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At least he is a canon character [In reply to] Can't Post

Had he been given another name in the movie, that would make him just like Tauriel. I'd be more PO'd if that happened. I'd rather they use already existing characters than bring in ones that never existed to steal the show.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Jul 24 2013, 12:43am

Post #5 of 25 (421 views)
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I would've called him 'Bolg' and all would've been fine ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 24 2013, 1:32am

Post #6 of 25 (417 views)
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What's in a name? [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, the name is just the icing on top of the cake. My problems stem from hokey CGI, hokey dialogue, and cliched "scary" villain role. I also just don't like the idea of the company being chased. Why is he just now coming after Thorin? Add the name Azog onto all of that, and it's just the cherry on top of a poorly executed villain.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Jul 24 2013, 8:52am

Post #7 of 25 (338 views)
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Bolg [In reply to] Can't Post

If they'd called him Bolg and changed almost nothing else about that plotline, I would have been okay with it. That would have given further development to a character that was already in the book. Expansion rather than contradiction.

Using Azog contradicts canon. And using both Azog AND Bolg in separate roles calls attention to the decision to split the story into three movies and fill them with fan fiction to stretch things out. As such, I tend to roll my eyes every moment he's on screen.

If he'd been a random unnamed orc, that would have been even worse. Because then he'd be 100% fan fiction without any basis in the original story.


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 24 2013, 8:55am

Post #8 of 25 (328 views)
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It wouldn't really matter [In reply to] Can't Post

He would remain PJ's worst deviation/creation in his entire Middle Earth saga,

Fingers crossed I don't bite my tongue after seeing the next two films...

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 24 2013, 10:15am

Post #9 of 25 (318 views)
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In a word, no. Indeed, if he had died in the Moria scene, also no. [In reply to] Can't Post

Its the "Azog chasing Thorin around Eriador" that is irksome. Azog was the whole purpose of the Dwarf Orc War. The Dwarves and even the Elves of Lothlorien were terrified of Moria ever since The Terror (Balrog) awoke there and slew Durin himself and drove the dwarves into their initial exile. The dared the place for vengeance on Azog. An attainable vengeance, more manageable than Demons and Dragons. They sacked goblin city after another until they nailed his ass.

When they had managed it and routed all the orcs, Thrain thought perhaps reclaiming Moria might be viable. Until Dain informed him that The Balrog was still at home, so. . . no.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 24 2013, 5:52pm

Post #10 of 25 (257 views)
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But surely you can't know that yet.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Because there is a Bolg in the adaptation as well, and we don't know how it's all going to fit together and where this Azog storyline is going. I know some folk here think they know, but so far it's all guesswork and theories.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 24 2013, 6:07pm

Post #11 of 25 (238 views)
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To be fair.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The company were chased from the goblin caves in the book by wargs and goblins. They did climb trees to escape, and drive the wargs back with fire. As so often happens in these adaptations there is a kernel of book 'truth' at the heart of what happens, and what PJ & co do is build on something Tolkien wrote rather than inserting pure invention. They add, they expand, but there's usually a Tolkien root to it.

As in this case. For some reason - no idea why - they've chosen to extend the hunt and chase to the other side of the Mountains and to make a separation between orcs and goblins - and to give the hunting pack a leader. In Azog - who again is a Tolkien character, though they've altered his story. The reasons for that won't become apparent until we've seen the storyline through, but I'm betting they do have their reasons


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 24 2013, 6:09pm

Post #12 of 25 (244 views)
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True we don't know where it is going ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but we know where it has been. And while it may be possible for Azog's storyline to be improved in the coming films, for me at least, he will always represent the weakest part of AUJ. Both because his (in my opinion unnecessary) survival of Azanilbuizur generates a rare purist reaction in me, and because I find the whole chased by Azog plot devise to be boring, distracting and completely unnecessary.

But I still like the film. Smile

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 24 2013, 6:20pm

Post #13 of 25 (239 views)
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Yes, but [In reply to] Can't Post

there is a reason they company is being chased from the goblin caves - they are responsible for the death of their king. I don't have a problem, per se, with that part of the chasing, though I don't like how it was adapted - with trees falling and whatnot. It's mostly the other side of the Misty Mountains chase that I have a problem with. I also don't like the Weathertop cameo because it feels shoe-horned in.

As far as I am aware (from various interviews over the past few years), it seems that this orc-hunting subplot was a way to tie all the different "episodes" from the book together. While I do understand wanting to do that, I'm just not satisfied with the end result. At least, I'm not satisfied with it in the first film. Of course, my opinion could change in the next two, but it will already be colored by my reaction to AUJ.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Jul 24 2013, 6:28pm

Post #14 of 25 (236 views)
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But until now Bolg would've been the better choice [In reply to] Can't Post

Correct! The complete "Out Of The Frying Pan" sequence is based on the chapter with the same name (actually "Out Of The Frying Pan And Into The Fire"). But there is a huge difference. In the book they were hunted by Orcs/Goblins (there it is the same as you wrote correctly) from Goblintown to avenge the death of their leader and everything else the company did to them in their home. In the movie we've got the Orcs from Gundabad attacking the company not Goblintown.


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[..] to make a separation between orcs and goblins.

I really like this choice because it gives us a more complexe Middle-earth.



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[..] and to give the hunting pack a leader. In Azog - who again is a Tolkien character, though they've altered his story

I like the idea of an Orc pack hunting down the company. It's a permanent danger. But until now an angry Bolg would've been a better choice as the leader. Hunting down Thorin to avenge his fathers death. He is a Tolkien character too and in the source material he is still alive. But you're right... we'll get an explanation why they did make this big change... At least I hope so.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 24 2013, 6:40pm

Post #15 of 25 (219 views)
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Yes - I'm just trying to keep an open mind about it at this stage... [In reply to] Can't Post

... because I don't know why they've done it. I want to see the whole thing first.

I hated the idea of Lurtz, but it worked out well enough. Benefit of the doubt, that's all. I didn't hate Azog as much as some do and the CGI looked good to me (I think people forget what a miracle some of these effects are. I still remember the appalling deadly rats of Doomwatch that looked for all the world like furry microphone covers being thrown onto the set - and the actors all tried to look so terrified... Wink )

For now, I'm just reserving judgement.


-Bugi-
Registered User


Jul 24 2013, 8:09pm

Post #16 of 25 (226 views)
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Azog was one of the best things of AUJ for me [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all, Hello everybody, this is my first post here :)
(sorry for my terrible, terrible English, not my native language)

As I noticed on other forums, I am one of the few people, who really liked Azog and was surprised by hate from fans for this character. For me, it was very clever and logical step from PJ to let Azog live, so the conflict between Thorin and him can be much more passionate in later chapters than if there was a random orc. Imagine movie version of Out of the frying pan with ordinary boring orc. There would be no story climax. Bolg would not make any diference than random orc, just because Thorin does not know him, and it would be very cumbersome for film to explain in some point that Bolg is son of Azog and he seeks revenge. I think that Azog/Bolg relationship will be explained in future movies. But I would not complain if Bolg is completely replaced by Azog in story , including BO5A (please dont kill me :) )
Besides i loved Manu Bennets performance ( I liked him already as a Crixus in Spartacus TV show ) . The only thing that really annoyed me was bad CGI in action scenes , while I do think that his facial expresions were briliant ...

I hope you understood what I was trying to say, again, sorry for my bad English .)




(This post was edited by -Bugi- on Jul 24 2013, 8:10pm)


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 24 2013, 10:34pm

Post #17 of 25 (184 views)
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Welcome Bugi [In reply to] Can't Post

And there's certainly no problems with your English here- it's very good!


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 24 2013, 10:53pm

Post #18 of 25 (179 views)
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Welcome Bugi! [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice to see you! And your english is very good have no worries! I agree with you on Manu's work as well.
Smile

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









RosieLass
Valinor


Jul 24 2013, 11:01pm

Post #19 of 25 (183 views)
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Your English is fine! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Azog looks really cool, and I mostly don't have any issues with the idea of him not dying and Moria and consquently pursuing Thorin.

I think I'm just concerned about how they're going to dove-tail his plot with that of Bolg, his son. It would be less troublesome if they hadn't cast Bolg.

But we shall see.

Welcome to TORn!

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Jul 24 2013, 11:39pm

Post #20 of 25 (164 views)
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Huh. 'Lefty'? Maybe. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just assumed Azog was ambidextrous, which also allows for his symmetrical self-inflicted scarring. (Hows that for alliteration? Tongue) My brain may be playing tricks on me, but I could have sworn he switched hands on his mace at some point during Azanulbizar.

Does anybody have any complaints about Azog being albino? I'm just curious. Mostly, the complaints are poor CGI (which I thought so, too, at first, and finally rationalized as his *complete* lack of hair as indicated in the WETA books, and so figuring his skin must actually be horribly unnatural and mutated and thus 'plastic-like') or his non-canonical survival ability. I thought surely someone would be wailing and flailing over his albino status, as well. (He is albino rather than leucistic, right? I'm not too knowledgeable about this stuff.) Red eyes would have been a bit cliche for me, if he is in fact albino (any biologists here to shed light?), but I think it is possibly for albinos to have blue eyes. Personally, I think Azog's blue eyes was a brilliant decision, since, to me, it ties him to the blue stone in the last of the Seven that Thror had.

As I see it, there is a 'blue' theme going on, what with Thorin's blue eyes, Thrain's blue eyes, and Thror's blue eyes (the WETA books say they had the actor for Thror - I unfortunately cannot recall the name at the moment - wear contacts so his eyes would match the light blue shade of his son's and grandson's), the blue Ring, Azog's eyes, and Bolg's. My belief has always been that the Necromancer sent Azog to retrieve the last of the Seven, and that was what inspired Azog to 'swear to wipe out the line of Durin'. He did his best, beheading Thror and all that (I also believe he killed Frerin... Frown ...why do I come up with these theories??? Why???). Thorin cut off his arm, which then made it personal for him.

Anyway, so Azog is thus (in my mind) connected with the Ring. I also see that Ring as symbolic of the dragon sickness, and thus its blue color also symbolic of it. Thus, if you will note, Thrain and Thorin have the same blue eyes. Fili and Kili, however, don't. (I see Fili as resembling his father and Kili as resembling Frerin, but that's another story for another day...) Fili's eyes are a lighter blue, and Kili's are brown. This is me probably reading WAY too much symbolism into things, but I have long seen that as indicating that, since they were not born under the influence of the last of the Seven (at least in the book), they are much less susceptible to dragon sickness. They don't have the Ring's color in their eyes. The lure for treasure isn't written in their hearts as it is for Thorin.

Oh, goodness. I've gone off into off-the-subject weird-headcanon-UUT territory. My humble apologies. *backs away*

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 25 2013, 3:03am

Post #21 of 25 (143 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog dead at Moria, and Bolg chasing him for vengeance makes more sense to me at this point, but we don't yet know how it will all play out.

He could be commisioned by Sauron, who is using his hatred for Thorin to his own ends or many other possibilties.
I will be upset if some plausible reasoning for keeping Azog alive instead of just using just Bolg does not become clear in the next film.

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jul 25 2013, 3:35am

Post #22 of 25 (142 views)
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not a biologist [In reply to] Can't Post

however I went to high school with an albino person, and yes she did have blue eyes, albeit pale blue.

Hope that answers your question! Smile

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 25 2013, 12:27pm

Post #23 of 25 (96 views)
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I mostly agreed with what you said... [In reply to] Can't Post

...except for this part - "If he'd been a random unnamed orc, that would have been even worse. Because then he'd be 100% fan fiction without any basis in the original story."

IMO a random unnamed orc (perhaps under orders from Bolg) would have been better than the brazen contradiction that is Azog.


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Jul 25 2013, 2:59pm

Post #24 of 25 (81 views)
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That theory is brilliant [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't even noticed that pattern in blue-eyed characters. I did think it was strange for Azog to have blue eyes, since most of the orcs in LotR had brown, green, or yellow eyes. Even if it turns out that it's not necessarily indicative of dragon sickness, I'd say it was a conscious decision to give the character fewer bestial characteristics and stress his cunning intellect.

Still, I'm going to keep the dragon-sickness-eye theory in mind and see how it pans out in the next two installments.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jul 25 2013, 3:32pm

Post #25 of 25 (88 views)
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Not for me. [In reply to] Can't Post

Given that it's the performance of the character that that makes Azog such a huge failure for me (through his design, animation, and actor's performance), a different name would make little difference. A stock movie villain leftover from one of those terrible Dungeons & Dragons movies that struts around like a professional wrestler would be just that no matter the name.

Though the rectification of Azog's history would lend some improvement towards my feelings overall about AUJ, as that's the single biggest lapse in judgement Jackson/Boyens/Walsh have made with the movies so far (including LotR), in my opinion.

 
 

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