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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 23 2013, 3:46am
Post #1 of 19
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HOW many Elves Live in Rivendell?
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Is..it The Last House of Healing
for the...Elves Exodus
into the WEST?
According to Film CANON.
Seemed kinda empty in the Movie.
Spread thoughout the valley,
Was there any Industry?
Were they bringing in their
Crops for the Winter when
the Company Barged in?
Sometimes Bomby
thinks of it as
Hippy Commune!
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 23 2013, 7:57pm
Post #2 of 19
(1124 views)
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The Elves probably weren't making children anymore, what with the world turning darker and they themselves just waiting for to leave.
As for industry, Tolkien never let us in on the details of mundane Elven chores... but surely they all weren't high lords and ladies sitting all day singing in lamentation, or looking wise, or riding around slaying orcs.  The great majority must have been commoners, who indeed ploughed and sowed and finally reaped.
Now does anyone know: when Tolkien said it's Elrond's house, does he literally mean a house, or just that it's Elrond's home and domain?
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Jul 23 2013, 9:05pm
Post #3 of 19
(1084 views)
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The only "industry" I can remember is this one
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The two smiths forging Anduril in ROTK:
Elven Smiths in Rivendell
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 23 2013, 9:26pm
Post #4 of 19
(1064 views)
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Selling overpriced kitschy lanterns and ill-fitting travelling cloaks.
Also I note Boromir and Legolas left without their horses, so there seems to be a underworld of horse thieves, possibly led by Arwen "No, this is a different Asfaloth" Undómiel. (Now you know where the horses at the Black Gate went.)
******************************************
"The tragedy of territorial geeks is that they found the wonderful world of fantasy, then missed its point."
-Luke McKinney
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 23 2013, 10:55pm
Post #5 of 19
(1062 views)
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It would be Fun if someone Here wrote
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A whole Novella about "Life in Rivendell"
1. The Libraries.
2. Their Schooling
3. Their Food Sources.
(I mean were they all vegetarians?)
4. Even in Gondolin, we didn't get much about Day-to-Day stuff?
5. Elrond's House was WAyCooler than any property, even the Queen of England owns??
I mean, any guess, how BIG the Valley of Imladris is?
Sometimes Bomby thinks of it as similar to James Hilton's Shrangri-La!
(A Monastary? high in in the Valley of the Blue Moon?")
Where No one grows old?
Get your "Thinkin'Hoodies" on, write here on this Thread...
...Could end up
as a Movie!
Lets hope in the Extended edition of AUJ, we FINALLY get some glimpses...
(HOPE HOPE HOPE!)
What do you want to see?
bomby
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Jul 23 2013, 11:01pm
Post #6 of 19
(1047 views)
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Like everyone else in hard times...
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... they had to diversify.
So in addition to the kitschy souvenirs,
- they did B&B for passing Rangers (lunch and evening meals available at an extra charge)
- ran a multilingual subscription library (volumes available in Westron, Sindarin, Quenya ...; impressive rare books collection...), and a museum of Elvish antiquities
- provided - for a steep consultancy fee - advisory services to research historians ("Don't argue with me about it - I WAS THERE")
- offered harp and flute lessons ("our instructors have, between them, over 15000 years of experience")
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 23 2013, 11:20pm
Post #7 of 19
(1033 views)
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Well, if they had Sports Teams?
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Would it be Be Cricket?
or Crochet?
Would it be Golf?
Or Frisbee Golf?
Would it be Rugby
or "Ring-Around the MayPole"?
I mean a young Elf needs his/her Exercise!
(this is sumthin' we can do while we are
waiting for the Next 4Months...)
An International "Group FanFic" by TORn Freaks?
(Just Keep Breathing)
Bomby
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 24 2013, 3:05pm
Post #8 of 19
(950 views)
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A bit more than simply a house...
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The Elves probably weren't making children anymore, what with the world turning darker and they themselves just waiting for to leave. As for industry, Tolkien never let us in on the details of mundane Elven chores... but surely they all weren't high lords and ladies sitting all day singing in lamentation, or looking wise, or riding around slaying orcs. The great majority must have been commoners, who indeed ploughed and sowed and finally reaped. Now does anyone know: when Tolkien said it's Elrond's house, does he literally mean a house, or just that it's Elrond's home and domain?
Elrond founded Imladris as a place where the Councils of the Wise would meet on a regular basis. At its peak, Rivendell probably encompassed a good-sized community of the Eldar. I think that the film depiction is quite reasonable for the most part.
As for Elven child-bearing, I think that your point may be true only for the Eldar. The Silvan Elves had no intentions of leaving Middle-earth. Their destiny may have been to fade, but there is no reason to think that they wouldn't continue to live life to the fullest in the mean time. I'm not even sure if a fair number of Sindar might have remained in Middle-earth after the last ship sailed for the Undying Lands.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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iduna
Rivendell
Jul 24 2013, 7:34pm
Post #9 of 19
(923 views)
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...to do the work.
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Werde Spinner
Rohan
Jul 24 2013, 11:23pm
Post #10 of 19
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The Veganopia Issue (and other disjointed ramblings)
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As far as my limited experience with elves in modern media (I don't play the video games), including books, movies, etc., elves all seem to be portrayed as vegetarians or vegans, while Dwarves go in for beer and meat. Now, I realize that, at least subconsciously, Dwarves and Elves are sort of like exaggerations of two sides of humanity. At least, that is how they will be treated in most analyses of mythology. However, in Middle-earth, where Dwarves and Elves are real in their own rights, I don't think that's quite fair. Suuuuurely they are allowed to be complete races in and of themselves, without being viewed as Men seen from different angles.
With that in mind, I just don't understand why they must always be vegetarians. I'm kind of rambling/ranting here, so feel free to ignore me and skip the rest of this post if you like. I know Elves eating greens and Dwarves eating meat contrasts their races further, but... it just doesn't make any sense. The Elves don't seem to have any stupid/silly superstitions in Tolkien's writings about not eating animals, unlike the elves in C. Paolini's Alagaesia series; Legolas makes no protestation of the sort wherever they are, although you'd think meat would be served at the king's table in Edroas, etc. (The Rohirrim being semi-nomadic, surely they'd have herds of cattle that they tended from horseback, although we do not hear of this?) We hear about Elves hunting orcs; do they not also hunt animals for food? Did Huan ever help his master hunt animals as well as hunt orcs? Surely, it'd be easier and safer than chasing down cunning orcs with pointy blades.
Plus, Elves could quite reasonably domesticate a wide variety of animals (they seem to have a way with them - I love the fact that Dwarves also do, to an extent, at least with birds, and they also have their mountain goat-like creatures in the AUJ prologue). The narration mentions Elrond's gardens in FOTR, so I think it's reasonable that they grow their own food. Now, being in a valley they seem to have lots of water from the waterfalls, everywhere... does it ever flood? Presumably, Elrond can control this with Vilya. (Has anyone ever explained why he has the Ring of Air and Galadriel has the Ring of Water - and how is adamant connected with water, anyway, or is adamant supposed to mean mithril  - and yet Elrond is the one seen controlling water? Plus, Galadriel sends the mist to conceal Eorl and his men when they rode to assist Cirion, which seems to imply a mix of water and air powers. Dunno...)
Being a valley, I assume the average temperature also might be cooler, since sunlight would reach them for fewer hours of the day. Dew would linger longer on the grass, etc., so that the fields may be worked for fewer hours of the day. It all depends on the depth of the valley, of course, but being so close to the Misty Mountains you'd think it'd have some effect on vegation and its cultivation there. Perhaps the Elves have fields they tend outside of the hidden valley itself? This might explain why they have secret entrances all over the place, as utilized in AUJ by the Dwarves.
Do they grow the wheat for lembas in Rivendell? It was made out of some sort of blessed wheat, wasn't it? Sigh... I need to go reread so much stuff. Obviously, they grow it in Lothlorien. Where do they grow it in Lothlorien? The area is covered in mallorn trees there, while in Rivendell there are presumably more open patches of land for crop cultivation... Perhaps they do not grow lembas in Rivendell anymore, since there is no specially designated lady to distribute it since Celebrian left? Arwen, we suppose, could fill in the position if she wasn't away so much visting grandma and grandpa.
For that matter, why is miruvor made only in Rivendell (we assume)? What is it made out of? Is it like wine, made out of berries or grapes or fruits of that sort, or is it more along the lines of beer and derived from grain? Personally, I would say it is more wine-like than beer-like (I obviously know so much about alcohol, don't I?  ). I always picture it as being a silvery sort of color. Is this canonical? My books are not handy. Is miruvor like lembas in that it must be distributed only by special people? Do Elf-women make lembas while Elf-men make miruvor? Can anyone else picture Elrond overseeing these operations??? Do they ever get drunk in Rivendell, like those two Elves in Mirkwood? What does Elrond think of such impropriety? Is his disapproval of such shenanigans what ensures that these poor Elves are the ones working in the fields?
Do the Elves trade with each other? Presumably, messages travel back and forth between Rivendell, the Grey Havens, Lothlorien, and Mirkwood, to an extent. Do they trade goods, animals, etc.? (I read one fanfic once, probably not meant to be taken seriously, that Celeborn sent the Irish Elk to Thranduil as a joke. Thranduil was surprisingly gracious about the elk and kept it - and then detailed Legolas to round up a spider and send it to Celeborn to repay the favor.  Seriously wonder sometimes if those two are related somehow... brothers? Cousins? On the subject of the elk, it is possible to get a statue of that species in the computer game Zoo Tycoon 2: Extinct Animals. I was delighted to find it and have since then named any deer in my zoos 'Thranduil', 'Legolas', and so forth.  Yes, I'm a bit nuts.)
Presumably, the Elves manufacture goods and have trades... Does Rivendell have its special weavers, coopers, carpenters, tanners, and so forth? Perhaps they import wood from Mirkwood or Lothlorien - I'm sure mallorn wood has special properties, although the Elves are probably reluctant to harvest mellyrn for such mundane uses. Can anyone remember if Legolas's Lothlorien bow was meant to be made out of mallorn wood or not? Because my brain keeps insisting to me that it was.
Do the Elves have glass-blowers? I can picture Rivendell with exquisite stained glass windows. The Elves have smiths, obviously, and very good ones. Arrrgggghhh.... Now I REALLY want to go to an Elf village and look at all the different shops and see what sort of trades they practice and what goods they sell.
Now this leads to ANOTHER important question: do the Elves have a form of currency? Is everything on the barter system? If they do have a currency, what form would it take? Perhaps it's not based on silver and gold - although that's extremely likely. Do they mint coins? Do the Dwarves handle all this instead? Is there a standard of currency for Middle-earth, or are there different coins for the Elves, for Dwarves, for Gondor, and for Rohan? Does the Shire use coins? Personally, I view the hobbits as being the least likely, out of all of them, to use coins. Perhaps the scene of Bilbo going to market in the EE will shed some light on this???
Wow. I hadn't realized how much I had written. My apologies for the walls of text. I swear, I haven't had (much) chocolate today. My imagination sort of grabbed me and went off on an unexpected journey into Elven economics. My bad.
"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2013, 1:27am
Post #11 of 19
(883 views)
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Supposedly in the EE there's a scene of Lindir attempting to sell Thorin an Elrond Half-elven Collectible Totebag. //
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My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Retro315
Rivendell
Jul 25 2013, 4:33am
Post #12 of 19
(891 views)
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I had a thought about The Last Homely House recently, and the usage of "House" in describing it. House itself as a way of describing a home, whether it be hole, hall or hut is pretty uncommon in Tolkien's works. Ignoring for a moment the film's decision to turn Rivendell into something of an art nouveau monastery, sort of a hanging garden style temple and library, it's even located in a 'hidden valley' type place akin to something you'd find in Tibet (an aesthetic I'm pretty fond of, I've got to say), when I personally read Tolkien I never stray too far from the Medieval. That is to say, everything he wrote had Medieval, particularly Medieval Northern Europe, particularly Great Britain in mind.
Elrond's Imladris is called a house. Elrond is a proper Lord, and was an even more proper Lord when he founded the place, when there were a lot more Elves around, noble or otherwise. While Imladris is something of a refuge for the eclectic travelers of Middle-earth, complete with a wing with guest rooms for weary wizards, rangers and adventurers, what I never try to forget is that it's also a classic Medieval household.
There is a lord, Elrond. There are his family - his sons, his daughter, his departed wife would've had chambers and maids originally.
There are his advisors. Guys like Erestor, mostly Noldorin, but probably some few Sindarin and Sylvan Elves, too.
There are his household servants. Elves are never really indicated as being any more democratic than any Medieval lord would be, though they do in Tolkien's work have that almost Vulcan-like sense of everything and everyone having a natural, logical place in their society and tend to base opinions on merit. Being a servant-class Elf would not be an affront or a menial job, it'd be pretty posh. (In Jackson's films, Lindir serving sort of as Elrond's butler works in this way.) You'd imagine there'd be a house blacksmith - likely a refugee from Eregion. There'd be a librarian, musicians, stable-keepers, gardeners, all manner of things to keep things running - though as immortal Elves it'd be fewer than Mortal Men would need - they've had long lifetimes to master multiple skills and talents.
There are his guests, of which there are many, mostly Elves, some of whom leave a few personal belongings at Rivendell but really just wander the woods like Gildor Inglorien and probably many others, always welcome at Elrond's but always off doing their own thing.
And there are his knights, defenders, guardians. Guys they'd send out in four directions to search for Frodo's party. Guys like Glorfindel who literally came back to life from death to keep fighting the good fight, and found "employ" as the sort of chief warrior of Elrond's household.
I'd pitch a minimum of 50 individuals living at Rivendell at any given time, but thinking about the nature of Imladris, a haven for refugees from The North and the only bastion of Elvish sanctuary on the west slopes, a watchtower over the passes of the mountains, Gundabad and Angmar ... I'd personally like to say at least 200 individuals live in Elrond's household at any given time. (Hey, they're immortal, skillful, valued, and it's got a bit of a hippie commune vibe ... people would flock.)
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angelclaw
Bree
Jul 25 2013, 7:49am
Post #13 of 19
(878 views)
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Elves as vegans, and other things
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I agree that the portrayal of Elves as vegans/vegetarians is overdone, and does not stem from Tolkien but rather a more modern stereotype. Very few ancient people were vegetarians, let alone vegans; they ate meat out of necessity, and so would the people of Middle Earth whether Elf, Dwarf or Man. Historically the only people who abstain from meat have done so for religious reasons, while the modern trend toward vegetarian/veganism owes more to health-consciousness and concern for the wellbeing of animals in factory farms.
These issues would be unheard of in Middle Earth, which leaves only the religious. The only ME religion that seems likely to have this kind of influence would be devotion to Yavanna, and indeed we have some possible examples to support this theory. Neither Beorn nor Tom Bombadil offer their guests meat - does this mean they are vegetarians, perhaps owing to some identification with Yavanna? I feel this is highly probable. At the same time, Tolkien describes the Elves of Mirkwood as roasting meat when Thorin & Co. make for their campfire, therefore if any Elves are vegetarians it is only certain (unspecified) groups, not the race as a whole.
Regarding agriculture in Rivendell... the Atlas of Middle Earth depicts it as less than a quarter of a mile wide and only slightly more than that in length, so if that's accurate it's doubtful any significant quantity of crops such as wheat or grapes could have been grown there. However, being a river valley it would be more temperate than the surrounding mountains, and the soil comparatively lush; perfect for stone fruits and vegetables enough to feed a population of maybe a hundred or two permanent residents. Pork and fowl could easily be farmed in small numbers, while any other meat would most likely be hunted or fished.
As to miruvor, Tolkien calls it a "cordial" which to me indicates distilled spirits. Like vodka, it could be made out of pretty much anything, but of course being made by Elves it would be somewhat magical and entirely lacking the nasty aftertaste
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2013, 9:02am
Post #14 of 19
(876 views)
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- there's no suggestion of that in Tolkien's works. Merry and Pippin served up some fine varieties of swine-flesh to the Three hunters at Isengard, and we don't hear of legolas complaining. And if elves eschewed meat, where did Haldir and his chums get the fur-lined cloaks which he loaned the Company for their first night on the flet?
As for the population of Rivendell - Tolkien doesn't say. But in 'The Road Goes Ever On', he says that Gildor and his party were returning to their homes 'near Rivendell' when they met Frodo & co, near the Woody End. So it sounds to me like Rivendell (the house) might be the centre of a settlement or settlements in the 'fair valley of Rivendell', and the surrounding area.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 25 2013, 3:15pm
Post #15 of 19
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Elves roast and eat meat in The Hobbit
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The smell of the roast meats was so enchanting that, without waiting to consult one another, every one of them got up and scrambled forwards into the ring with the one idea of begging for some food. No sooner had the first stepped into the clearing than all the lights went out as if by magic.
-Flies and Spiders
And further, the Wood-elves are considerate enough to feed their Dwarven visitors meat:
There in the king’s dungeon poor Thorin lay; and after he had got over his thankfulness for bread and meat and water, he began to wonder what had become of his unfortunate friends.
-ibid
******************************************
"The tragedy of territorial geeks is that they found the wonderful world of fantasy, then missed its point."
-Luke McKinney
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 25 2013, 4:16pm
Post #16 of 19
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Yeah THAT's really proofPositive that the Mirkwood elves...
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eat meat...remember the Hart that darted over the Enchanted stream?
Likely food source.
Bomby is Loving your imput and Speculations...
How about this?
Just like the Rice paddies in Asia, on the hillsides of the Valley? That could grow alot.
Also, I'm sure that they eat Fish with all the Water
flowing in and around Elrond's House.
Thier Libraries much be quite extensive...
with so much History to recall.
Boy! would Bomby like to sit and read there!
The Murals we are hoping to see soon, across from Narsil;
Someone painted those? It's quite possible their BOOKS have illustrations, TOO!
I love the fact that there would be settlements NEAR Rivendell...so maybe we can settle on about 200 Elves?
In PJ's Movies it looked like about 40 were leaving with Arwen...
(Some of Bomby's Favorite Shots!)
yet these could have also been from Lothlorien? as well.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 25 2013, 5:35pm
Post #17 of 19
(834 views)
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The Mirkwood Elves weren't vegetarians
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Bilbo followed the Mirkwood Elves outdoors on several occasions when they went hunting. He didn't try it often as it was risky and troublesome to get through the gates. Each group of Elves does seem to have had their own specialties. Lothlorien Elves produced lembas, perhaps the grain is grown in fields east of the River. As you state, miruvor is produced in Rivendell--although its recipe may be based on the Valar's miruvore (made from the flowers from the garden of Yavanna) even if it isn't quite the same.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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angelclaw
Bree
Jul 26 2013, 3:00am
Post #18 of 19
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For agriculture would make a lot of sense in a place like Rivendell, now that you mention it. And they're aesthetically very pretty, definitely seems like something that would exist in a place like Rivendell. I've often wondered if there was rice in Middle Earth... kind of a weird thing to give more than a passing thought, I suppose, but I really like rice so there you go. And I'm totally with you on the fish, I would imagine salmon or trout and possibly even sturgeon or freshwater shellfish being a major source of sustenance.
The murals are very interesting to me in that they demonstrate a level of realism that seems to be beyond the logical progression of art in Middle Earth at that time. And what was the paint made of? I wonder a lot about the music as well, especially whether they had anything like a harpsichord or piano, and whether there were actual guitars or just lutes and fiddles and maybe mandolins? Tolkien mentions clarinets in TH, but later in his letters says this (along with umbrellas, tomatoes and coffee) was a mistake, and that reed instruments would not have been invented yet.
I also wonder whether anyone had gotten around to inventing anything like a printing press, whether their paper came in standard sizes and what kind of finishes (linen, laid, wove, etc.) and colors there were. Not to mention how they made their ink. I work in a print shop so naturally I think about these things
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 27 2013, 2:26pm
Post #19 of 19
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According to Film CANON.
Well I had a 'numerical answer'... but based on the books... so nevermind
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