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TORn Amateur Symposium
Bree
Jul 22 2013, 8:59am
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TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM Day Two - Fauna of Middle Earth
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We are pleased to present the following TAS entries in the category, Fauna of Middle Earth:
"Models of Dragon Ontology", by Nordwarf:
Models of Dragon Ontology
"On the Communication of Animals and the Free Peoples of Middle Earth", by Rembrethil:
On Communication Between Animals and the Free People of Middle Earth
"Sentient Animals in the world of J.R.R. Tolkien", by Elizabeth
Sentient Animals in the World of J.R.R. Tolkien
To view an essay, please click on the appropriate link above. We hope you enjoy it as much as we enjoy posting it. The TAS is open for discussion, and any comments, questions or thought you wish to share about this particular Category pieces can be posted in this response to this thread. Also use the sub-threads below to address a particular essay.
Details on TORn's very first Amateur Symposium can be found here. And don't forget to join in with dicussions on other essays:
TAS Day One - The Physics Of Middle Earth
Thank you for joining us in this event, and we wish you Happy Reading, TORn Brethren and Guests!
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TORn Amateur Symposium
Bree
Jul 22 2013, 9:00am
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Subthread for "On the Communication of Animals and the Free Peoples of Middle Earth", by Rembrethil /
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 22 2013, 9:37am
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A number of thoughts for both Elizabeth and Rembrethil
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Thank you both for your essays. I find the topic on sentient animals (and purses) very interesting, and have a number of random musings going round my head while reading your essays.
Elizabeth - I hope I haven't mis-interpreted at what you were saying, but with regards to your German Shepard (and the Fox for that matter), you suggest that just because an animal will respond to verbal commands (especially if they have been trained), doesn't necessarily make them sentient. I agree with this, as it seems that a trained animal is simply using their limited intelliggence to respond to an associated verbal phrase. The fox might be able to think, but it doesn't mean it would be able to say it's words.
And what is the line between simple sentience (a thinking fox) and advanced sentience (a talking fox, perhaps?)
Rembrethil, you say that some animals may simply have forgotten how to communicate. Do you think that all animals (let's say in Third Age) were able to communicate (specifically verbal communication, in whatever tongue).
Is it possible that Bill the Pony was sentient, and if so, why didn't Tolkien mention it? Bill would probably have something more interesting to say during the Warg attack than a random fox.
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 12:36pm
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Excellent ideas Nordwaf! A pleasure to read! I really enjoyed your rich referencing.
I would agree on the idea that Maiar and animals could reproduce; there is nothing inherently humanoid I think about the Maiar - the choice of the Valar, for example, to portray themselves in humanoid forms was because of their great love for the Firstborn (especially after the Summoning.) WE read in the early creation of the world that the many spirits entered Arda by choice, and their form I think was a matter of choice as well. So it makes sense that some of them would choose a shape of something extant in Arda already, especially if that particular lifestyle appealed to whatever their ideals and sensibilities were.
In conjunction with Daniel's question - if Glaurung is called Father of Dragons, presumably Smaug (did I leave out the h- sound?  ) is a descendant, and therefore a hybridized Dragon? Or do we think he could even be third-generation?
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 22 2013, 1:04pm
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Honestly, I tried to leave my essay as open-ended as possible. My aim was to show the practicability and possible means of communication, and inspire discussion. It also attempted to glimpse a bit of the creative process behind the world-building of ME. The little quirks and foibles in the legendarium are what bring us together, Why else have the RR? It was partially intended to help explain the "Intelligent Animal" phenomenon, and partially a bit of musing. More a bit of musing, really. XD
I DO believe though, that there is good case to allow for a higher level of consciousness in Tolkien's animals. They all have their own speech, and it would seem to be implied that if learned, the characters can converse in a highly intelligent manner. All this due to the Elves' first years of teaching the Ents and animals.
That said, I also believe that my theory of Dragons' origin is plausible, at least it satisfies my needs. Haha. Dragon's were such an interesting part of the legendarium of ME, but I believe they were becoming a second set of Balrogs, too powerful and too many. If the theory of rebellious spirits were accepted, I think that Dragons could have played a larger part in the story, as it would give them conspiratorial ideas and an unfixed allegiance--ME free-agents, if you will.
Like I said, I like a good discussion, and I hope my essay engenders a good deal, hence the open-ended-ness(?).
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 1:50pm
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Bravo - a good theory of dragons
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It would get Tolkien out of a theological fix - he wants intelligent and complex dragons like the ones in the old Northern tales. But he decides at some point that only Eru can create sentient life (hence Alue's problems trying to make dwarves). Tolkien patches this up - for example retrofitting the Ents into the scheme. But I thought he'd overlooked dragons! Whether he did or not, the Maia/creature hybrid hypothesis sounds like a plausible explanation!.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 1:57pm
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A "sentience" or two in response
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Really enjoyed reading this paper - I think it's true that our ideas about which creatures are sentient are much more confused than one would think. And the problem is further complicated by whether a creature is behaving in an intelligent-seeming way without being intelligent, or whether the observer is introducing his or her own bias (as in Clever Hans).
I did like the bit about the fox - he's written as a traditional folk story Mr Fox, but you could rewrite the passage to make him sound much more animal like, without altering the event.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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cats16
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 3:54pm
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Really cool analysis here, Nordwarf. As one who isn't as well-versed in The Sil. (heard many of the stories "second-hand" via TORn, but I'm planning to read it before the year's end) or HOME yet, I thank you for your thoroughness while expanding on quotes from the texts. That's a really interesting thought about the Maiar cross-breeding with beasts. And I think you really hit the nail on the head near the paper's end, showing that dragons truly are evil-purposed beasts made with their Master's image in mind.
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cats16
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 4:04pm
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I thought it might be easier to respond to the thread itself, as your papers have multiple overlapping points being made (which is fantastic, I must say!). I really enjoyed both of these, as they really do compliment each other well. Rembrethil's paper lies heavier with the practice of animal communication, within Tolkien's mythology (I love your point-by-point breakdown) while Elizabeth's considers the theory of sentience, and then delves into the practical instances, both in the real world and that of Tolkien.
The part that seems to take the most liberty, when considering scientific practicality in Tolkien's world, is Bard's understanding of the thrush's language. As you both mention, he is surprised to have the ability to understand the bird, because of his blood lineage with the Men of Dale. This part is sort of a slippery slope, to me, as it's harder to accept the plausibility of this action. Of course, I don't look down on it for being impractical or anything like that, it's just something that I'm conscious of when reading TH.
Great thoughts, both of you!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 22 2013, 4:15pm
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Thanks for the comment.
The instance in question, with Bard, is a bit strange, but I put it down as a 'Faerie-Tale', 'Eucocatastrophic' moment within Tolkien. It was a children's book after all.
I like to read, (and re-read), books that I enjoy, at different levels of consciousness. I can read it in a critical style, analyzing it like we do in the RR, a cursory style, the method we all used to skim a book which we hated, for a school report, or a newspaper. My preferred manner for Tolkien is a an enjoyment style, suspending all my disbelief and letting the story take me away into realms of pure fantasy, the very idea I believe that Tolkien expressed as the purpose for fantasy.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 4:17pm
Post #14 of 60
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Glaurung and Smaug as free agents
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.
That said, I also believe that my theory of Dragons' origin is plausible, at least it satisfies my needs. Haha. Dragon's were such an interesting part of the legendarium of ME, but I believe they were becoming a second set of Balrogs, too powerful and too many. If the theory of rebellious spirits were accepted, I think that Dragons could have played a larger part in the story, as it would give them conspiratorial ideas and an unfixed allegiance--ME free-agents, if you will.
They do seem to be a bit of a free-agent, 'contractor' sort of servant: they work when they want, on their terms, and if they decide to eat or deep fry their own team rather than help them there isn't much anyone can do about it! We see that o the sack of Nargothrond as well as Smaug doing what he pleases.
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 22 2013, 4:22pm
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But I still wish that we saw more of them. It may have just gotten too complicated for Tolkien to write more of them in.
Oh, and I do not think that we even get a real backstory on Smaug? Correct me if I am wrong. I think it would be interesting to know what dragons have been doing since the Banishment of Morgoth and the sinking of Beleriand.
How many do you figure survived?
What were they up to? Besides striking deals with angry villagers, a farmer with a magical sword, and dogs, of course.
(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Jul 22 2013, 4:27pm)
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cats16
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 4:34pm
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I would have been better to say that it enters my mind after reading that part, and I'm sitting there thinking about everything in more detail. Not trying to correct myself, but I just realized that I sounded too critical/harsh on that part when reading it. It's actually (among so many!) one of my favorite parts of the book!
I agree about the "Faerie-Tale" moment. TH always makes me feel like I'm a little kid again, reading about a world with no Dark Lord trying to dominate everyone (yet!) that simply tells a great adventure story. It's only when putting some of TH into the greater lengendarium do we see some strange bits like this one.
Ah, talking about TH now makes me very reflective, as I'm about to read the real "meat" of ROTK today, where it all gets so incredibly sad.  
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 4:41pm
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How we view anthropormorphizing
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Interesting Elizabeth, that we use the term 'anthropomorphizing' once we perceive that a behavior approaches our H. sapiens skill set. Yet as you conclude, I think that the nature of cognition and communication is not as much of a 'line', defining two irreconcilable skills, as a continuum showing internal variation. So it would seem that even using this definition to restrict the idea of cognition is limiting and a much greyer zone than we might (comfortably?) like to think.
As you show with your examples, even with the fantasy JRRT demonstrated the subtle variations from species to species. Huan's speech is interesting, because of the 'three times' use. So I wonder if with the legendarium this represented a special, divine gift or if it was simply that he chose only to speak/used the skill during those three great times of need?
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 22 2013, 4:42pm
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JRRT seems to have possessed the knack of showing the allure of Evil. (I mean Sauron wasn't going to pop up in the middle of the Fellowship and tell Boromir to attack Frodo, anymore than a criminal will come up to you with a gun and tell you to rob a bank.) He captures the temptation and anguish of the characters, making their fall into evil uber-tragic, well for me at least.
He also seems to have nailed 'Likeable Villains', you know, the bad guys that you hate to admit you love, and actually feel sorry for when they die. You know what I'm talking about.
How many of you tried to rationalize the Bad Guy's motives, and make him seem terribly misunderstood or a even a victim?
Smaug is just so disarming with his manners and charm. I think that I was sad to see him go, even if he WAS a monster. HE WAS MY FATHER!!! Sorry, couldn't resist
*goes off to write a nice eulogy for a dragon*
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 22 2013, 4:45pm
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Sounds like more meat for the RR.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 4:47pm
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And we want to read that eulogy Rembrethil. 
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 22 2013, 4:53pm
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Words are a "human" communication method.
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I don't think that "speech" as we know it equates to sentience (thinking and feeling) for species other than humans. Increasingly, the evidence is that all higher-order animals (e.g. mammals) have some degree of sentience. And they all communicate, both with others of the same species and with other species -- just not in words.
I am quite sure that Bill gave a lot of thought to his relationship with Bill Ferny and Sam, and had a very clear opinion of the two. As to his thoughts during the warg attack: he may have expected support from the humans, which the fox certainly would not, but that is maybe more of a culture difference: foxes aren't brought up to depend on humans for food and protection, while domesticated ponies are.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 22 2013, 5:03pm
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Which might be made even more complex ...
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By Huan being restricted to speak only 3 times because of the "prophecy". It's interesting to think how the two might be linked, and whether he was physically restricted, or it was a cognitive decision. After all prophecies in Tolkien's books are often fulfilled naturally, and almost coincidentally. What would happen if Huan had spoken a fourth time?
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 22 2013, 5:08pm
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The majority of Tolkien's villains are likable since they do not all start off being bad and/or are never truly bad (excluding the exceptions). They might stray down the bad/villainous path, but they may redeem themselves later on, and/or their actions have some sort of positive outcome.
It's difficult for Smaug since he is only ever portrayed as being evil. At least Sauron wasn't always bad.
Though, I suppose, if Smaug hadn't taken Erebor, then Bilbo wouldn't have found the Ring, and it may never have been destroyed. Maybe he was a good-y after all!
The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jul 22 2013, 5:27pm
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That's an interesting thought. I thought Smaug was a bit appealing, where I never felt any sympathy for Sauron. General principle agreed though, the Professor did have some likeable villains/ bad guys/ antagonists.
Inner voice:
Wait, you mean you don't all think the same way that I do!!!!!!!! 
No, seriously, I enjoy these differing viewpoints. One of the reasons that you guys are part of the best fan base ever.
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