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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Empathy from the devil

noWizardme
Gondor


Jul 21 2013, 7:19am


Views: 154
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Empathy from the devil [In reply to] Can't Post

Well done yet again, Rembrethil! Yet another great post.

Made me think - in LOTR there is a theme of evil failing to comprehend good. Gandalf of Galadriel, say, can all too easily imagine behaving like Sauron; it's just that they don't let themselves. But Sauron is brought down partly because he cant imagine behaving like The Wise: getting the Ring, and then destroying it rather than using it.

I wonder whether something similar is happening in this chapter: Morgoth cannot empathise with Melian ( in the sense of understanding her thoughts and feelings) and so he can't anticipate her plans. Insofar as she has any plans, that is, being and isolationist, c.f. Galadriel's engagement with the world.

I'm wondering whether Morgoth finds Turin much easier to understand: I see several points of similarity in their characters. This might make Turin easier to mess with, either magically or by conventional means of manipulation. Maybe Turin's potential as a protégée is also the reason for Morgoth trying to capture him?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

Subject User Time
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Dwarves, Doriath and Doomed Women Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 3:56am
    Doriath - of Thingol and Melian in the tale of Turin Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 3:58am
        Doomed women and Turin Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 4:06am
            I think Turin sees women in the abstract… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 20 2013, 7:37am
                Excellent observations, Wiz CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 20 2013, 1:33pm
                    That in itself is often appealing Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 20 2013, 3:52pm
                That's possible Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 20 2013, 3:49pm
            Turin and his fangirls.... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 20 2013, 2:09pm
                Very good points here Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 20 2013, 3:58pm
            Doom is not a pretty thing CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 20 2013, 5:24pm
                Turin and Nienor Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Jul 21 2013, 1:02am
                    Many thanks for that background information CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 23 2013, 1:32am
                        Early drafting makes Turin different Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 2:05am
                            The end, result, the Sil as a collection of tales in varying styles... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 23 2013, 3:02pm
                                Excellent question - I wonder too Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 7:06pm
                                I think JRRT would have gone with a rougher style Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Jul 23 2013, 8:41pm
                                    Welcome Terazed. Glad you can join us! // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 23 2013, 9:11pm
                    Thanks Terazed! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 1:48am
                    Turin and Nienor...oops I forgot to put in the Sigmund Signy summery Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Jul 23 2013, 8:54pm
                        Wow! By comparison, Game of Thrones is genteel! // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 23 2013, 9:15pm
                        Thanks Terazed! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 9:20pm
                            Just a simple sowing and baking test Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Jul 24 2013, 3:46am
                                I concur Terazed! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 24 2013, 4:40am
                                Kids these days are too soft CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 24 2013, 5:28pm
                                    A Northern European version of Cinderella elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 24 2013, 9:34pm
                                        Not the Disney approved version! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 24 2013, 9:36pm
                                            A lot of fairy stories Silverlode Send a private message to Silverlode Jul 24 2013, 9:47pm
                                                Yeah, the children back then saw some pretty gruesome things too... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 24 2013, 9:50pm
                Nienor's sadness: foresight or impurity? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 21 2013, 1:51am
            Yet another rambling of thoughts.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 22 2013, 3:10pm
                Turin finding Niniel Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 12:44am
                Love triangle CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 23 2013, 1:15am
                    What is particularly ironic for poor Niniel and Turin Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 23 2013, 12:07pm
                        I am blown away by the wonderful analysis in each posting to this thread ltnjmy Send a private message to ltnjmy Jul 23 2013, 2:40pm
                            As always, thanks for the kind words! Glad to see you! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 4:53pm
                            Jump right in, ltnjmy! Only the super-cockroaches bite. (I think.) ;) // Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 24 2013, 1:23am
                                I think I've started something! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 24 2013, 1:51am
                                    "Little stones start an avalanche"...hopefully not of Super-cockroaches. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 24 2013, 2:14am
                            Thank you, Itnjmy! // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 24 2013, 5:23pm
                        Cousins - troublesome cousins! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 3:30pm
                            Turin/Tuor Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 24 2013, 1:36am
                                I enjoy the what-ifs too R-D Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 24 2013, 2:10am
        Doriath matters! elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 20 2013, 1:52pm
            Galadriel wearing the pants - sort of Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 20 2013, 4:06pm
        Pride and Prejudice CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 20 2013, 5:04pm
            Those Doriath folks... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 21 2013, 1:45am
        Thoughts on Doriath Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 20 2013, 5:57pm
            Psychic war Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 21 2013, 1:55am
            Empathy from the devil noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 21 2013, 7:19am
                Some thoughts on an Unseen World connection Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 23 2013, 4:48pm
    Elves and the Petty-dwarves Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Jul 19 2013, 11:07am
        Thanks for putting that up Elthir! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 1:35pm
    Some thoughts Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 20 2013, 4:00pm
        Thoughts continued.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 20 2013, 5:41pm
        Thoughts on Dwarves back Rembrethil Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 21 2013, 1:23am
    Petty behavior CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 20 2013, 4:42pm
        On the hunt squire Send a private message to squire Jul 20 2013, 9:01pm
            Hunting trees and hewing beasts Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Jul 20 2013, 11:49pm
        Petty Dwarves Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 21 2013, 1:38am
        "let us hunt some Dwarf! - CUT! It's 'hunt some ORC , Viggo!" PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Jul 21 2013, 2:26pm
            Nice metaphor here Phantom Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 22 2013, 1:54am
        About petty dwarves... Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 22 2013, 7:06pm
            A layman's two cents Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 22 2013, 7:56pm
                Rembrethil, that was worth at least a quarter-- Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 22 2013, 11:48pm
                I would reply to you CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 23 2013, 1:02am
                    Debug it. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 1:03am
                        We, the roaches, are in control now. You threaten to kill us? We have kin in your house...// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 23 2013, 1:16am
                            (*puzzled*) Yeah, the roaches were here... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 11:10pm
            Drift and banishment Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 22 2013, 8:55pm
                Mim's unlovely trait Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Jul 22 2013, 11:37pm
                    Oh yeah - those too!!!! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 12:57am
            A humorous Observation Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 23 2013, 4:54pm
                We have Orcrist the Goblin-biter...and Mim the knee-biter. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 5:10pm
                    Plus Tailbiter from Farmer Giles… // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 23 2013, 7:36pm
                        "Lembas-biter" might be a nice Dwarven barb at an Elf I suppose.// Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 23 2013, 9:21pm

 
 
 

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