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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Dwarves, Doriath and Doomed Women
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Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 21 2013, 1:51am

Post #26 of 75 (189 views)
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Nienor's sadness: foresight or impurity? [In reply to] Can't Post


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Turin and Nienor's love for each other seems to have multiple origins. It could be Morgoth's curse at work, bringing them together in the wrong way. Or Glaurung's curse; he wields an incredibly malicious power of enchantment. Or is it some buried half-recognition of each other than goes awry out of ignorance? I find the last one the most likely. Agreed, I am starting to find that last part a likely reason too. That Turin was searching for something that it appears he only found with Niniel.

Doesn't the doom fall more heavily on Nienor than Turin? She's the one who gets pregnant with the child created out of incest. Not that throwing yourself in a chasm is the only way to get rid of a baby you feel is awfully twisted, but she had to deal with it somehow by giving birth to it, or not. I don't think it was a demon-child that had to be killed, but would Turin and Nienor have been able to act as father and mother to it once they knew they were brother and sister? Would they awkwardly try to raise it as Mom and Uncle Turin, or would Nienor have taken it and run off into the woods? Every option seems fraught with pain. It's the most uncomfortable part of the story, and there's plenty of discomfort at other points. Sadly it does fall heavily on her. Glaurung calls the babe 'the worst' of all Turin's crimes, and I think that's how (even though they both are morally innocent) they regarded it. Turin could leave, but bearing a child is something one can never 'leave' even if given away. That's why I feel that the baby is really her doom - so I wondered if it was foresight that she was sad; versus valuing of the baby because of its impure origins as a source of the grief.


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 21 2013, 1:55am

Post #27 of 75 (190 views)
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Psychic war [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your ideas here, Rembrethil and they are certainly possible. There certainly could be a 'vibe' of ill will emanating from Morgoth; interesting that the very lack of sensitivity to Ulmo's messages may save Men a bit from the malice of Morgoth's thoughts.

Excellent point about Doriath - getting into the Girdle may shield Turin. That makes sense!

I think the Ford at Bruinen is Frodo seeing, with his connection to the Ring and being weakened, more fully the Spirit side of life and thus Glorfindel in his strength.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 21 2013, 7:19am

Post #28 of 75 (200 views)
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Empathy from the devil [In reply to] Can't Post

Well done yet again, Rembrethil! Yet another great post.

Made me think - in LOTR there is a theme of evil failing to comprehend good. Gandalf of Galadriel, say, can all too easily imagine behaving like Sauron; it's just that they don't let themselves. But Sauron is brought down partly because he cant imagine behaving like The Wise: getting the Ring, and then destroying it rather than using it.

I wonder whether something similar is happening in this chapter: Morgoth cannot empathise with Melian ( in the sense of understanding her thoughts and feelings) and so he can't anticipate her plans. Insofar as she has any plans, that is, being and isolationist, c.f. Galadriel's engagement with the world.

I'm wondering whether Morgoth finds Turin much easier to understand: I see several points of similarity in their characters. This might make Turin easier to mess with, either magically or by conventional means of manipulation. Maybe Turin's potential as a protégée is also the reason for Morgoth trying to capture him?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


PhantomS
Rohan


Jul 21 2013, 2:26pm

Post #29 of 75 (185 views)
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"let us hunt some Dwarf! - CUT! It's 'hunt some ORC , Viggo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

The Elves are the equivalent of a living hard drive without a processor- the Valar put the knowledge of all the things they created into them but didn't make them adapt to unexpected things. Hence they (usually) give Men a good welcome as they have been foretold, and they meet the Ents and teach them talking, the only thing they didn't get from Yavanna. The Dwarves however are someting they didn't know anything about- in the pre-Noldor return world dominated by Morgoth everything without pointy ears and silver hair on two legs is probably evil, if the Sindar are to be asked. It was only after some negotiation that the Elves actually realized there were other two legged speaking creatures not allied with Morgoth, certianly after some bloodshed had occured.

I wouldn't be surprised if the early Dwarves also found themselves on the wrong end of arrows, but I guess the Petty-Dwarves weren't as heavily armored and numerous as the Great Houses and were thus hunted, rather than approached cautiously.

The parallel to Theoden and his people is slightly strange as the Forest of Druadan is in fact in Gondorian territory or at least joins it in one place. I suspect Ghan buri Ghan might actually be referring to Numenoreans rather than the forest-shy Rohirrim!


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 22 2013, 1:54am

Post #30 of 75 (170 views)
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Nice metaphor here Phantom [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The Elves are the equivalent of a living hard drive without a processor- the Valar put the knowledge of all the things they created into them but didn't make them adapt to unexpected things. Hence they (usually) give Men a good welcome as they have been foretold, and they meet the Ents and teach them talking, the only thing they didn't get from Yavanna. The Dwarves however are someting they didn't know anything about- in the pre-Noldor return world dominated by Morgoth everything without pointy ears and silver hair on two legs is probably evil, if the Sindar are to be asked. It was only after some negotiation that the Elves actually realized there were other two legged speaking creatures not allied with Morgoth, certianly after some bloodshed had occurred.




I like this idea, in that the early Elves are limited by the knowledge limits of the Valar. It is only after having their own experiences that their knowledge bases can diverge. In which case many things about Arda proper, both before and after the Return, will be a mystery or a shadow to most of the Valar, while those things (like Great or Petty Dwarves for example - but here we can except Aule) will somehow have to be incorporated into Elf knowledge and culture. The Sindar have to get a head start here, being left on their own. The Noldor need to pick it all up on a faster curve after the Return, but by then there is lore to be shared from the Moriquendi; and while not judging them as 'primitives' they I think had more fear, more uncertainty in their cultural development than the Noldor did in Aman.

Harkens back again to the irregular and (to the other Valar) unexpected and probably poorly understood creation of the Dwarves. That action, while inspired by the most loving thoughts, sets that stage for thousands of years of poor relations between the races.

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 22 2013, 1:55am)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 22 2013, 3:10pm

Post #31 of 75 (165 views)
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Yet another rambling of thoughts.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Turins seems pretty self absorbed in his own quest, throughout the story. He seems to be focused on the goal of honor and glory. This could possibly explain the coolness he has toward women, and his relationships in general.

In the case of Nellas, she was his childhood friend, companion to a lost boy in the days of his young bliss. Those days were not to last forever, and as he outgrew his childish innocence, he may have, unintentionally, left Nellas and their relationship behind, forgotten. She was the embodiment of ignorant bliss, and born in Doriath, a safe haven, presumably retained the innocent bliss of the Eldar. Aging, Turin came to learn that this was not all that was in the world, that there was also pain and sorrow. Nellas too, would have left this behind, but they seem to have dealt with the revelation in two different ways.

Turin became the man we admire for his strength and courage, and upbraid for his folly. He came to see the harsh facts of life, as unavoidable. This would seem to give him a measure of resignation to the suffering in life.

Life is pain and there is nothing to do about it.

Nellas, on the other hand, would seem to have progressed in a different manner. In the calm and collected wisdom of the Elves, she has come to see the pain and bitter sorrow in life, but also the beauty and things worth living for. She had formed connection to others, Turin is one stated, and had embraced the sorrowful knowledge of the Elves.

Life may be painful, bu tit will not be so forever.

Her immortality gave her a perspective scope, larger than Turin's. She could wait, and see the working of time come to completion, but Turin, mortal as he was, did not have this luxury. He could not await the issues of fate patiently, and perhaps that was the difficulty found by those Men and Elves who sought a deeper relationship.

Cool rational patience, contrasting with the urgent need for quick action.

In the loss of Aerin and Finduilas Turin seems to finally notice that his actions have an impact on others. Till this point, I believe, he has been charging ahead toward his own goals. Now he sees that he cannot totally ignore the effect that he has upon others.

That realization has primed him for the later relationship that he has with Niniel. He is now sobered by experience and failure, and he has tasted the cup of victory, only later to be marred with the bitter dregs of defeat. He is now weary and convinced of his own 'ill-fate'. He only seeks to strike at his enemy before he is consumed. He has been cheated and deceived, but no more; he is determined to do damage, only to Morgoth. A different kind of false-pride, rooted in his own experience, and this the most dangerous of all--the lie with a bit of truth.
He has established himself in Brethil, not the childhood home of Doriath, he has left those behind--they have served their purpose to raise him. Nor the halls of Orodreth-- what help were they? Not the independent strength of Amon Rudh-- he cannot stand alone. But in Brethil, in the woods, among many men, and with chance for escape, possibly form his fate.All of these factors have readied him for a meaningful relationship. He has been hurt, or thinks so, by those who have aided him before. He has settled for a humbler way of life, and believes that he may be beneath the notice of destiny.
Such is how I imagine Turin's mind at the time of his meeting of Niniel. He comes to a creature that needs aid, and is alone afraid and helpless. A possible reflection of his own inner state, even if only as a child? In the aid of Niniel he finds the solace and balm for his soul. Not everything that he touches goes to waste. He can do something right! His relationship to her is right, to him, and he only wishes for things to continue. He is killing servants of the enemy, has a safe refuge, and now a positive relationship, unmixed with grief. He wants it to go on, he wants to marry her, bu the only thing in the way is Brandir.

Brandir here may be a misunderstood character. He first came off to me as a selfish man who only wished to hurt poor Turin! But this was only because of my sympathy for the protagonist. Brandir, IMHO, reflects a measure of wisdom, in his dissuading against Turin's councils. He sees the folly yet remaining in Turin, and the disastrous consequences possible. His only error that I can see, is the emotional cloud that is cast upon his motives as he councils Niniel in regards to Turin. He has let his own councils become partially subject to his own desire. While not necessarily wrong in his advice, his personal desires may have pushed her closer to Turin, setting up the drama that was to be played out.

Turin took Niniel in, in a spirit of love and protection, there is no question here. He did not mean to fall into an incestuous folly, bu tit happened nonetheless. While motives may not be questioned, the actions may take to themselves, a life apart from the motivation and emotions inspiring them. This is what I believe to be the tragedy of the climax of the story. Though choices and actions were made in the purist spirit possible, they were clouded and shadowed by Evil, perverted joys and pleasures. This was what finally broke Turin and Nienor. They had lived together in a spirit of truth and love, or so they thought, and now all their reality was shattered and twisted. How can you make these crooked paths straight? They did not have an answer, neither do I, and we can only hope that they found these in death.


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 22 2013, 7:06pm

Post #32 of 75 (158 views)
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About petty dwarves... [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding the original of petty dwarves...I am wondering if they could be a subrace (of sorts) of one of the original houses of dwarves. Mim says he "came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east,...but they became diminished in stature." Could it be that this group of dwarves, because it was forced to interbreed over many generations, became stunted? I don't know whether that's anthropologically possible in the time that passed since their banishment, though.

In any case, I certainly wonder what they were banished for. Possibly for many of the nasty traits that Mim displays...


"To remember love after long sleep; to turn again to poetry after a year in the marketplace, or to youth after resignation to drowsy and stiffening old age; to remember what once you thought life could hold, after telling over with muddied and calculating fingers what it has offered; this is music, made after long silence."--The Hollow Hills



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 22 2013, 7:56pm

Post #33 of 75 (159 views)
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A layman's two cents [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that it is probable. Interbreeding within a small group would bring out recessive traits on their genetics. If you think of a lottery of genes, with some recessive ones that we consider 'bad', probably mutations, the smaller the lottery, the greater your chances of drawing a 'bad mutation'.

You should also know, that when a couple has a child, not all of the genetic information of their parents is passed on. You get some from your mother and some from the father. Even with multiple children you can still lose a few genes here and there between generations.

Think of them as words. The entire human race carries a large vocabulary, but as individuals, we can only carry a few. Lets say, for clarity's sake 100. (It's actually more but let's just go with it for the sake of illustration).
Two people with 200 words(probably less, as they can carry the same words) have a baby. Baby gets 50 from Dad and 50 from Mom. Now there is a chance to add a new couple words to the vocabulary, via mutation, but these will be like reordering letters in the word, there are a limited amount of anagrams, and you will likely get gobbledygook.
The 100 words make up you, like your parents but with a rearranged word order that makes you special. Now all of these genes give a bit of information to your make-up. Some dispose you to be a red-head, others a blonde, or a brunette. They all have a tug of war and the strongest ones, called dominant, usually win. the losers don't really affect you but still make up you 100 words.
What happens to the other 50 words from Mom and Dad that weren't used? Well ,unless they have another child, they may be lost! Now, usually this doesn't happen, some one else in the world has these words in their genes, but every so often, a word or two falls out of everyone's list of genes. This isn't a problem usually, because we have millions more words, but what about a small group?
In small group you have, let's say a few hundred or thousand, different words, among them a few gobbledygook words.. In order to save all of these words you would have to make sure that ALL of the genetic info is passed down from each parent to their children. Without a guarantee of non-repeating gene exchange, it would be difficult to have enough children to pass on your whole 100 words each generation. Starting in a smaller vocabulary selection, the process of losing words becomes accelerated. There are less backup carriers for the specific words, and more of a chance to pass on a garbled gene mutation. So you'd have to pass on 100% of your genetic material every time, AND get rid of anyone who would carry the garbled gene. These two goals work against each other, statistically making your job harder and harder with each passing generation. Not to mention that if you are isolated from all other gene pools, it's probably for a good reason and probably hard to find food, so large families aren't even practical.

Entropy and statistics work against you in any small group. You need as many people as you can to provide back ups for the human race's enormous vocabulary. We are all so special and different, it would be a shame to lose any single word in our story.

Now for a disclaimer:(read it fast like those medical side effects commercials do)

I am neither a biologist nor geneticist. I have gained all of this info from private reading and understanding of others work. Do no take any of this information as a true expert opinion, or attempt to use it to create an army of super-cockroaches. I am not responsible for any injuries inflicted by mutant pet experiments gone terribly wrong. Best read with a sense of skepticism and humor. I prescribe lots of laughter and chocolate......'cause it is GOOD!!


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 22 2013, 8:55pm

Post #34 of 75 (143 views)
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Drift and banishment [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Regarding the original of petty dwarves...I am wondering if they could be a subrace (of sorts) of one of the original houses of dwarves. Mim says he "came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east,...but they became diminished in stature." Could it be that this group of dwarves, because it was forced to interbreed over many generations, became stunted? I don't know whether that's anthropologically possible in the time that passed since their banishment, though.

In any case, I certainly wonder what they were banished for. Possibly for many of the nasty traits that Mim displays...




Indeed, genetic frequency of the reduction of a breeding population (ie genetic drift) will certainly change it (I see Rembrethil's post also offers a lot of information here.) I attempted to calculate the time and generations but can only estimate a huge variance as the time periods are so different.

As far as the banishment, JRRT seems to lay it at the door of their trait - among other things - of sharing their secret names, which violates Great Dwarven taboo. (The 'why' is not explained, but they guard their names for some reason, potentially relating to others gaining power over them (in theory.) It is after their banishment that they lose stature and also seem to lose smithing skills (maybe as not being part of the communal knowledge and teaching - skills which I am sure were also kept secret.)

I agree Riven Delve, the ransoming seems an rather unlovely custom, but as Mim refers (implying it) to it as starting with "Dwarf Lords of Old" I'm not sure if it is a Petty-dwarf 'old' or a Great Dwarf 'old.' Not sure if I have read of this elsewhere, like in BoLT or HoME...?

(Has anyone else?)

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 22 2013, 11:37pm

Post #35 of 75 (143 views)
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Mim's unlovely trait [In reply to] Can't Post



In Reply To

the ransoming seems an rather unlovely custom, but
as Mim refers (implying it) to it as starting with "Dwarf Lords of Old" I'm not
sure if it is a Petty-dwarf 'old' or a Great Dwarf 'old.'




Actually, Brethil, in terms of Mim's nasty traits, I was thinking less of the ransoming and more of Mim's slyness and disloyalty, and probably some irrational jealousy thrown in. Unsure


"To remember love after long sleep; to turn again to poetry after a year in the marketplace, or to youth after resignation to drowsy and stiffening old age; to remember what once you thought life could hold, after telling over with muddied and calculating fingers what it has offered; this is music, made after long silence."--The Hollow Hills



Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 22 2013, 11:48pm

Post #36 of 75 (144 views)
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Rembrethil, that was worth at least a quarter-- [In reply to] Can't Post

don't sell yourself short at two cents! Wink Seriously, though, thanks for the info. I wasn't sure how long it would take mutation to affect the group as a whole.

And I promise to use my army of super-cockroaches only for good. And for fetching me chocolate. Cool


"To remember love after long sleep; to turn again to poetry after a year in the marketplace, or to youth after resignation to drowsy and stiffening old age; to remember what once you thought life could hold, after telling over with muddied and calculating fingers what it has offered; this is music, made after long silence."--The Hollow Hills



Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 12:44am

Post #37 of 75 (137 views)
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Turin finding Niniel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Such is how I imagine Turin's mind at the time of his meeting of Niniel. He comes to a creature that needs aid, and is alone afraid and helpless. A possible reflection of his own inner state, even if only as a child? In the aid of Niniel he finds the solace and balm for his soul. Not everything that he touches goes to waste. He can do something right! His relationship to her is right, to him, and he only wishes for things to continue. He is killing servants of the enemy, has a safe refuge, and now a positive relationship, unmixed with grief. He wants it to go on, he wants to marry her, bu the only thing in the way is Brandir.

Turin took Niniel in, in a spirit of love and protection, there is no question here. He did not mean to fall into an incestuous folly, bu tit happened nonetheless. While motives may not be questioned, the actions may take to themselves, a life apart from the motivation and emotions inspiring them. This is what I believe to be the tragedy of the climax of the story. Though choices and actions were made in the purist spirit possible, they were clouded and shadowed by Evil, perverted joys and pleasures. This was what finally broke Turin and Nienor. They had lived together in a spirit of truth and love, or so they thought, and now all their reality was shattered and twisted. How can you make these crooked paths straight? They did not have an answer, neither do I, and we can only hope that they found these in death.




All your points are great Rembrethil, and I agree with tis bot particularly. I think that finding her in the state she was in would appeal to anyone's desire to nurture and help, because she is rather like a fawn in her helplessness. Potentially a reflection of his own state indeed - certainly as a child who did not have much control over his fate; yet one who did know love and probably craved that sense of belonging and commitment.

Excellent observations all.

I agree to on Brandir: two motives, one perhaps more self-centered than the other but neither evil. (Which Gurthang divines. Clever.)

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 12:57am

Post #38 of 75 (127 views)
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Oh yeah - those too!!!! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


In Reply To

the ransoming seems an rather unlovely custom, but
as Mim refers (implying it) to it as starting with "Dwarf Lords of Old" I'm not
sure if it is a Petty-dwarf 'old' or a Great Dwarf 'old.'



Actually, Brethil, in terms of Mim's nasty traits, I was thinking less of the ransoming and more of Mim's slyness and disloyalty, and probably some irrational jealousy thrown in. Unsure


The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 23 2013, 1:02am

Post #39 of 75 (129 views)
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I would reply to you [In reply to] Can't Post

but an army of super-roaches has taken over my computer. Help!!


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 1:03am

Post #40 of 75 (122 views)
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Debug it. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 23 2013, 1:15am

Post #41 of 75 (130 views)
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Love triangle [In reply to] Can't Post


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Brandir here may be a misunderstood character. He first came off to me as a selfish man who only wished to hurt poor Turin! But this was only because of my sympathy for the protagonist. Brandir, IMHO, reflects a measure of wisdom, in his dissuading against Turin's councils. He sees the folly yet remaining in Turin, and the disastrous consequences possible. His only error that I can see, is the emotional cloud that is cast upon his motives as he councils Niniel in regards to Turin. He has let his own councils become partially subject to his own desire. While not necessarily wrong in his advice, his personal desires may have pushed her closer to Turin, setting up the drama that was to be played out.

Turin took Niniel in, in a spirit of love and protection, there is no question here. He did not mean to fall into an incestuous folly, bu tit happened nonetheless. While motives may not be questioned, the actions may take to themselves, a life apart from the motivation and emotions inspiring them. This is what I believe to be the tragedy of the climax of the story. Though choices and actions were made in the purist spirit possible, they were clouded and shadowed by Evil, perverted joys and pleasures. This was what finally broke Turin and Nienor. They had lived together in a spirit of truth and love, or so they thought, and now all their reality was shattered and twisted. How can you make these crooked paths straight? They did not have an answer, neither do I, and we can only hope that they found these in death.

I appreciate your points, Rembrethil, or at least the roaches holding me for ransom and laughing while they eat my chocolate do. I didn't like Brandir on 1st read because he seemed petty and selfish and got in the way of the hero--how dare he. Subsequent readings make me much more sympathetic to him, and much less to Turin.

It seems that of the many tragedies in this story, one is, as you point out, Turin had finally grown to the point where he really cared about someone else more than himself. Score! But that led to a twisted fate where they both died, so that victory of maturity and his late-learned ability to subdue his pride and bloodlust came to ruin.

What is odd for me is that the whole Incest thing looms so large in the last part of the story and taints everything. It sucks me in too, but from my own untainted perspective, neither Turin nor Nienor knowingly did anything wrong, and the baby certainly did nothing wrong, and no one should be punished. It's a situation where I want to say, "Why do bad things always have to be someone's fault?" They faced an awkward life together once they knew each other (in the non-Bilbical sense), but they could have made it work, and the baby would at worst have been born with a mild defect--plenty of non-incest babies do too. I suppose I'm saying they could have made the best of a difficult situation, but the Shadow of Incest seems so disturbing (and yes, it is) that it's not a mere shadow, it seems like an eclipse blocking out the sun in this story where you feel that something AWFUL has to happen because the incest is so AWFUL. Whereas I read the book Middlesex and thought the parents were very strange for knowingly having incest, but otherwise, it was a reasonably normal, troubled family (with a birth-defect baby) that didn't have a cloud of condemnation over it where I was waiting for lightning to strike the parents for their deed.


CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 23 2013, 1:16am

Post #42 of 75 (119 views)
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We, the roaches, are in control now. You threaten to kill us? We have kin in your house...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 23 2013, 1:32am

Post #43 of 75 (130 views)
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Many thanks for that background information [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice summary and very informative, Terazed. I have about 1,000 books on my to-read list, and reading about the Norse myths is one, but it's deep down in the queue. (The closest I've come is the novel "Norse Code" which is loosely based on them.) It's great to read the comparative stories from both the past and the more recent Wagner versions. *Something* manipulates Turin's life to make an outlaw of him. In Tolkien it's the Devil's malice, but in Wagner it was Wotan/Odin's love, or tough love, and plans gone awry.

I think this is a crucial chapter for Tolkien because it was near and dear to his heart, but the more we discuss it, it seems like it doesn't fit in with the rest of The Silmarillion. Well, I've always thought that, and now I just think it more. I don't criticize the chapter (and course not the chapter leader!), but it seems like a stand-alone story that wasn't quite successfully spliced in with the rest. The tone, the characterization, a few other things: it just doesn't feel right. From the info you've given, it appears to be such a self-contained story that that could be why it seems awkwardly grafted to the plot tree.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 1:48am

Post #44 of 75 (119 views)
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Thanks Terazed! [In reply to] Can't Post

Have been so tied up with other things I rather missed this wonderful summary!

You are right - Turin represents a very early work, initiated in 1912/13, followed by Earandil's tale and the Fall of Gondolin (presented 1918.) It seems the reading of the Kalevala spoke to him in language as well as the spirit of the old Northern tale, and I think he did indeed desire to import its deep tragedy mixed with that hope for humanity that wafts through all of the Middle-earth legendarium.

Thanks again, and welcome to the Reading Room! Smile

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 2:05am

Post #45 of 75 (132 views)
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Early drafting makes Turin different [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this is a crucial chapter for Tolkien because it was near and dear to his heart, but the more we discuss it, it seems like it doesn't fit in with the rest of The Silmarillion. Well, I've always thought that, and now I just think it more. I don't criticize the chapter (and course not the chapter leader!), but it seems like a stand-alone story that wasn't quite successfully spliced in with the rest. The tone, the characterization, a few other things: it just doesn't feel right. From the info you've given, it appears to be such a self-contained story that that could be why it seems awkwardly grafted to the plot tree.




As JRRT worked so early on Turin, and it is based on his desire to work the Kalevala - the feel of the Kalevala - into his own cosmos, it does feel different. So as it has that as its basic story, its does have its own beginning, drama and ending as it were. Different than the other tales, which hang together a bit more, and are more interdependent.

Nice touch not criticizing the chapter leader BTW. It might make the chapter leader use silly, mocking avatars.

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 23 2013, 12:07pm

Post #46 of 75 (121 views)
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What is particularly ironic for poor Niniel and Turin [In reply to] Can't Post

is that their cousin Tuor's wife, Idril, refused to have anything to do with her first cousin, Maeglin. (Because of the close family relationship, but I admit it might also have been because he was creepy. Tongue)

Perhaps it's just as well Niniel and Turin never knew their goody two-shoes cousin Tuor. Though his life wasn't a rose garden, his fate was so different from theirs I wonder if they would have envied and hated him.


"To remember love after long sleep; to turn again to poetry after a year in the marketplace, or to youth after resignation to drowsy and stiffening old age; to remember what once you thought life could hold, after telling over with muddied and calculating fingers what it has offered; this is music, made after long silence."--The Hollow Hills



ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jul 23 2013, 2:40pm

Post #47 of 75 (112 views)
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I am blown away by the wonderful analysis in each posting to this thread [In reply to] Can't Post

Everybody had such awesome replies - each one ! Thanks for sharing !!Smile


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 23 2013, 3:02pm

Post #48 of 75 (106 views)
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The end, result, the Sil as a collection of tales in varying styles... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is quite suitable in a way. I get the impression that many ancient bodies of myth can be dissected to reveal stylistically contributions from different times and minds. Perhaps it is not inappropriate to have the Sil this way. To put it another way - had Tolkien lived to prepare the Silmarillion for publication himself, I wonder whether he would have "smoothed" the style, or whether he'd have seen it as a feature that Turin is a bleak tragedy, Beren and Luthien a Celtic romance etc. ?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 3:30pm

Post #49 of 75 (103 views)
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Cousins - troublesome cousins! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
is that their cousin Tuor's wife, Idril, refused to have anything to do with her first cousin, Maeglin. (Because of the close family relationship, but I admit it might also have been because he was creepy. Tongue)

Perhaps it's just as well Niniel and Turin never knew their goody two-shoes cousin Tuor. Though his life wasn't a rose garden, his fate was so different from theirs I wonder if they would have envied and hated him.





Excellent points about the family relationships Riven Delve. I get the feeling from reading that Idril really got the measure of Maeglin right away - and there is a wisdom there, because even Turgon does not. Her being creeped out really may save her; not sure what kind of spouse he would have been but 'pathologically jealous and possessive' to spring to mind, especially after his dear daddy's modeling. And then of course - no Earandil, no Star and later no Hope.

It IS ironic - and they could have had that sort of life as well, and sooner, if Morwen had come to Doriath. Hmmm - I wonder too - maybe at the end, when they lost everything, they might have felt real envy had they known. Before - very interesting, not sure...maybe they were both just so caught up in the only life they seem to know?

I wonder if the great love Rian had for Huor, and her inability to cope with his loss, put Tuor in a much better place maybe than he might have been? And if not for that he might have had more of a Turin-like adulthood?

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 23 2013, 4:48pm

Post #50 of 75 (96 views)
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Some thoughts on an Unseen World connection [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps Men are less susceptible to the Unseen influence of the Ainu/Elves, and thus, less aware of the second world. This would seem to handicap them, and they could see themselves, like Turin, in a hopelessly confusing, twisting maze of fate. But then you have the Gift of the Atani to balance it out. They aren't bound by fate, and though unable to 'see' the Unseen, they have the freedom to escape it. They would need the Wisdom of the Elves though, to deal with it. A parallel comes to mind, and I hope it doesn't offend.

For spiritual guidance, and the answers to life's 'why's', many turn to a priest/minister/shaman/teacher/ any spiritual councilor I may have missed. They understand the working of the supernatural, and though the layman might not understand or, depending on the creed, be able to interact directly with higher powers, they are able to learn to respond correctly to the outside influences in their life.

Great point! Evil cannot comprehend Good. Evil, in Tolkien, was good once, and it would seem like a fallacy to say that it cannot understand itself in a previous time, but Evil in these cases, has been corrupted from Good. It has become a broken image of what it was supposed to be, and cannot understand what it was before, in its twisted thinking. Once again, all in Tolkien, not necessarily to be applied to life as a whole.

I won't go into the full philosophical ramifications of Good, Morality, Redemption, and Truth. Someone is bound to disagree or bring up a dangerous 'hot topic' like politics or religion, so I will leave it there.

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