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Possibly Moronic question...was there ever any attempt to publish Tolkien's books in 'American English'?
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malickfan
Gunner


Jul 19 2013, 5:12pm

Post #1 of 43 (450 views)
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Possibly Moronic question...was there ever any attempt to publish Tolkien's books in 'American English'? Can't Post

Just wondering. The Harry Potter books had a few words tweaked, and one the titles changed to make them more marketable in the USA (as did Trainspotting), now I know that Tolkien is massively popular in the states (I didn't set out to offend any americans on this board if they thought I was having a dig at American English, that wasn't my intention, and I can only apologise if I have) but has there ever been any attempt ot thought to editing the books into American English (or indeed, more modern English) to make them more marketable? Perhaps with the Unoffical Ballatine editions in the 60's?

I realise this is a pretty random thing to post about but I was feeling curious today.

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.


Rembrethil
Sailing Master

Jul 19 2013, 5:32pm

Post #2 of 43 (289 views)
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My Ballantine editions [In reply to] Can't Post

My Ballantine editions contain "Proper English" spelling.

Connexion-connection
Realise-realize

And others.

Personally, as a classic lit fan, archaic spelling and usages do not bug me. They give a tone to the book that would be lost if changed.

Imagine character exchanges in "Modern English"

"I'm hungry, I could really use a kip"

Frodo: "Why me!"

Gandalf: "Why not? deal with it!"


geordie
Sailing Master

Jul 19 2013, 6:53pm

Post #3 of 43 (264 views)
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In short, no. - [In reply to] Can't Post

- mind you, in the 1st printing of the Ballantine FotR, they printed the Ring-verse upside-down.

'I cannot read the fiery letters' said Frodo. 'Im not surprised' said Tolkien when he found out.

.


L. Ron Halfelven
Boatswain


Jul 20 2013, 1:51am

Post #4 of 43 (224 views)
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"Bilbo was gonna be eleventy-one,111, a right big number..."// [In reply to] Can't Post

 




Werde Spinner
Rigger


Jul 20 2013, 1:57am

Post #5 of 43 (245 views)
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I am an American [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I can tell you that I REALLY do not want to see anything written by the Professor in American English, because we speak terribly. Half of us can barely spell, as well.

*crawls away in shame on behalf of countrymen*

(Yes, I am a Grammar Nazi. I feel the lack of proper English deeply. At the same time, I love archaic and formal diction, so I wouldn't trade Tolkien's style for the world.)

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Magpie
Captain


Jul 20 2013, 2:26am

Post #6 of 43 (239 views)
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I see a lot of mangled writing from lots of locations when reading on the internet [In reply to] Can't Post

not just the US. I'm finding, more and more, that I literally can't understand about 1/4 of what I read (in forums and comment boards) anymore and I'm not so sure it's just people from the US following what appears to be a trend.

Bad writing is not the same as American English.


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Ataahua
The Kraken / Moderator


Jul 20 2013, 3:44am

Post #7 of 43 (231 views)
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What particularly pains me [In reply to] Can't Post

is seeing a person 'correct' another person's already correct spelling with something misspelled. Not only is the first person a poor speller, but s/he is confident about their accuracy and is spreading their misunderstanding.

Having said that, I see an awful lot more people pointing out spelling and grammar errors than I see people wilfully ignoring clear writing.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Arandiel
Boatswain

Jul 20 2013, 4:52am

Post #8 of 43 (218 views)
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Thankfully, [In reply to] Can't Post

the movie-tie-in paperbacks that I have appear to be in British English. I've never understood the drive some publishers have to 'translate' books from British to US English. But then, I grew up reading the Paddington series, and they were all kept in their original format here. I missed a spelling word or two in Second Grade, but suffered no ill effects other than having yet more evidence that my teacher was a raving idiot.


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demnation
Rigger

Jul 20 2013, 5:29am

Post #9 of 43 (206 views)
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I certainly hope not [In reply to] Can't Post

The Britishness (including spelling) of LOTR is a (small) part of what I enjoy about it. I even used "connexion" once in an essay and got away with it! I was so proud.

My Sam Gamgee is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognized as so far superior to myself- J.R.R. Tolkien


noWizardme
Sailing Master


Jul 20 2013, 8:12am

Post #10 of 43 (218 views)
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I wonder what Tolkien thought? [In reply to] Can't Post

He was particular about spelling- one publisher "corrected" words such as
Dwarves --> dwarfs
Eleven--> elfin
And so on…

.…and Tolkien made them put it all back to his original.
I believe the point for him is that only more recent words do the -fs thing, ancient words (which elf and dwarf ought to be) do -ves. Important difference for a philologist.

So I don't know whether he would have honored a change to US spelling, or use some colorful language about it.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Elthir
Gunner

Jul 20 2013, 12:29pm

Post #11 of 43 (208 views)
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Belvish [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
- mind you, in the 1st printing of the Ballantine FotR, they printed the Ring-verse upside-down.

'I cannot read the fiery letters' said Frodo. 'Im not surprised' said Tolkien when he found out.




LOL, excellent geordie!

And as I know you know, there was also [in the Elvish vein] the 'omentilmo' goof up -- Tolkien's originally correct omentielmo revised to now correct omentielvo [Tolkien himself changing his mind] got 'wrongly' fixed back to omentielmo -- well almost, as it was published 'omentilmo' -- before being fixed back to omentielvo.

I think this was the Ballantine editions anyway Blush



Magpie
Captain


Jul 20 2013, 1:45pm

Post #12 of 43 (188 views)
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yeah... that's a bit ironic when it happens [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I see an awful lot more people pointing out spelling and grammar errors than I see people wilfully ignoring clear writing.


I think it depends on where your hanging on the web. This is a very articulate forum (comments on home page are pretty articulate, too). A few others I visit are much the same. The demographic drawn to them are a bit focused - meaning the kind of people who visit share some commonalities and similarities - including their writing style.

But other places can be less so. On one board that has a very broad demographic (the foci of interest includes lots of people from lots of place at lots of ages... yadda yadda), I am finding more and more posts that - try as I might - I just can't make sense. It's very perplexing to me. It's not misspelled words or bad punctuation (although those might be in play). The writing is just garbled enough to make for poor comprehension (on my part).

I'm not sure if people are very hurried or they don't care (and some of them start a questions with, "I can't be bothered to look it up" so 'low care' is a possibility), or they think it's cool, or they just lack the skills or what. Sometimes, the choice of words or phrases or off enough to indicate English is not their first language and either their translation skills are not up to the task or they're relying on online translators. Sometimes, other people seem to understand them. So that might indicate there's a style of talking or writing that I'm just not hip to. They used to make jokes about beatniks talking to people and not being understood at all.

But sometimes no one answers and I think it's because no one has a clue what they're trying to say. I have been seeing this type of post more and more over the last year and it's gotten so bad I just stopped hanging out at a forum I used to spend a lot of time at. I was encountering so many post I couldn't make sense of it wasn't worth visiting.

It's hard to know who all these people are. But my sense isn't that they're just kids from the US. Although, perhaps they are. The acceptance of these posts (no one calls them on it and correcting is highly frowned up) indicates to me this is more widespread than just from one location on the globe since I know members of this forum are from more than just the US.


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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Quartermaster


Jul 20 2013, 3:58pm

Post #13 of 43 (178 views)
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The most bizarre posts I've seen [In reply to] Can't Post

were part English as a third language, and part Google Translate. They would sort of make sense part of the way through, and then go off into outer space, and maybe come back to something semi-intelligible-but-strange because she was a very odd individual. Occasionally, some of the guys would lose both their patience and their manners, and be rude and mean to her because of her communication skills, but most everyone just let her spew when her reading comprehension and misunderstandings led her to post really rude responses to simple conversations.

**********************************

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Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


Maciliel
Sailing Master


Jul 20 2013, 4:04pm

Post #14 of 43 (189 views)
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in defense of american english [In reply to] Can't Post

 
there's really nothing wrong with american english. and there's more to american english than standard american english. there are many regional variations.

for example, "gonna" is widely used in the north east as a compression of "going to." however, native speakers who use this expression generally use it verbally, and would be unlikely to use it in written expression, unless they were also unaware of and poor at applying standard grammatical rules.

i do agree that individuals in america display a decreasing adherence to standard grammar and spelling, and there has been a general devaluing of education overall.

i have a friend who is a professor, and he was quite surprised (at first) to discover that students of generation y and the millenials turned in term papers using "u" for "you," "bcuz" for "because," and "4" for "four." it's one thing to use these as shorthand in texting, but it's another to think it's acceptable to use these forms in a term paper (or be unaware that it's not acceptable).

i don't necessarily blame people for not knowing when to use "who" over "whom," but i do wish more people knew how to correctly apply "and me" vs. "and i." i see and hear a lot of people using "and i" as if it's always the correct form, when it is only the correct form in certain sentence constructions. an easy check for this is to substitute --

"the work was done by jane and i."

do the substitution test -- drop "jane"... and you have "the work was done by i" -- which most people would agree is grammatically incorrect. the correct form is "the work was done by jane and me" / "the work was done by me."

honestly, i hear plenty of english speakers in the united kingdom and other countries being just as ungrammatical. most brits just sound posher to american ears because of the accents (of which there are many -- there is no, single "english accent").


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jul 20 2013, 4:06pm)


elaen32
Gunner


Jul 20 2013, 4:14pm

Post #15 of 43 (160 views)
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I agree Magpie [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that it's just in the US that one sees this problems and bad English is NOT the same as American English. I think we accept slight differences in spelling like color/colour, theatre/theater- they are what they are. There is a cross over in phrases and style between all the English-speaking countries, due initially to TV and films and now to the internet. That too is a natural evolution of language.
Here in the UK, there are numerous examples of bad spelling, grammar and punctuation. For example, we were sent an email at work concerning a professional training course for health care assistants. However, they could not even spell the name of the course correctly- which doesn't bode well for the standard and content of the course! It's fruit season here and I live in one of the main fruit and vegetable production areas in the country. Everywhere one sees signs such as " Get you're strawberry's and cherry's here"
Sadly, even the hallowed fora of TORn have people posting incomprehensibly at times. I know sometimes it is easy when one is posting quickly or from a phone, to get things wrong. However, for some, it seems habitual.
+Rant over+


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



elaen32
Gunner


Jul 20 2013, 4:24pm

Post #16 of 43 (166 views)
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Hah, we have EXACTLY the same problem here in the UK Mac! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have friends who work teaching in universities and also some who undertake marking of the national exam papers. They have said the same thing about students writing essays using text speak. There is a time and a place for different language uses. I know you don't like using capital letters when you post here- which is fine. But I don't expect you would apply for a job, write a CV/resume, using only lower case. I have had applications for nursing jobs and even a management job sent to me using only lower case for everything.
One of my real bug bears- which I have mentioned before, is the incorrect use of "of" instead of "have"- as in "I could of gone to the beach, but I would of been late home" instead of I could/would have or even could've/would've. It's not only in speech, but in written communication that I have some across this. Aaarrgghh!!


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



geordie
Sailing Master

Jul 20 2013, 4:56pm

Post #17 of 43 (157 views)
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yes; I can't remember the exact details - [In reply to] Can't Post

- but IIRC, it went like this: Tolkien spelt the word as omentielvo, then decided on philological grounds that it ought to be omentielmo. (or the other way round; can't remember which). Anyway; this revision first took place in the Ballantine ed. of 1965. Now, the president of the Tolkien Society of America, a Mr Dick Plotz, saw the change and got on to Ballantine to say it wasn't right; they ought to change it back. And so they did. And then they had to change it back again, when Tolkien found out.

Tolkien bibliography is fun. Smile


angelclaw
Powder Monkey

Jul 20 2013, 5:38pm

Post #18 of 43 (146 views)
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It does seem to be more of a generational thing [In reply to] Can't Post

I find that it's generally people in their teens and twenties, both British and American, that have the most difficulty with spelling and grammar; they're growing up with too many modern distractions and not enough emphasis on reading, except on the internet where the standards are so low it's laughable. I think the lack of time spent reading actual books for one's own pleasure combined with the incredibly low standards for online/text communication are more to blame than the educational system in any particular country.

Personally, I tailor my usage of proper grammar vs. slang to my audience - in a quick email to a friend I would say "I'm gonna come over in half an hour" while in an email to a client I would say "Will you be available to meet with me in half an hour?" I don't want to sound like a grammar Nazi to my friend, nor would I want to sound unprofessional to a client. But you have to know the difference to begin with before you can decide which one is more appropriate to the situation at hand.

Of course I speak much more casually than I write, but that's because we've reached a point in American society where people think you're stuffy and uptight or just plain weird if you talk like an English major all the time. As long as you know the difference and have the ability to speak formally if necessary I don't see it as a degradation of the language, but rather a testament to its versatility.

Also... not to be insulting, but why the choice to write a post in defense of American English in all lowercase? Just curious Wink

To answer the OP's question, I think I remember reading somewhere in Tolkien's letters that his publishers wanted to "Americanize" TH and possibly LOTR for the American editions, and Tolkien said he'd rather the books weren't published here at all or something to that effect. Am I remembering it right, does anyone else recall this?


Werde Spinner
Rigger


Jul 20 2013, 5:46pm

Post #19 of 43 (136 views)
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Oh, sure. [In reply to] Can't Post

I will *speak* with regional inaccuracies all the time. However, when I am on the Internet with people all across the world whom I cannot expect to understand my region's slang, dialects, etc., I think it'd be best to know how stuff is really supposed to be spelled to make it easier on everyone else. It's just polite.

'u', 'r', 'cuz'... *headbang* I annoy my friends by always texting with proper spelling and grammar.

However, all this being said... I have used various phrases of Tolkien's in essays and haven't been caught yet ('divers' for 'various' probably being the closest-run one... most people would just assume that was 'diverse' with the 'e' cut off the end!).

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Maciliel
Sailing Master


Jul 20 2013, 5:47pm

Post #20 of 43 (142 views)
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lowercase [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i always write in lowercase on these boards; there seemed no need to alter it. i can see how it might be amusing, in light of the subject matter of that particular post.

i find it interesting that you would actually write "gonna" in an email. that is quite unusual.

i purposely and very consciously integrated things like "gonna" into my everyday language, to be seen as more approachable. growing up, i was exceedingly harassed and singled out (in a negative fashion) for my vocabulary and enunciation.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Werde Spinner
Rigger


Jul 20 2013, 5:51pm

Post #21 of 43 (140 views)
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Never understood it, either. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read books by British authors just fine. What really bugs me is when the release of a book is delayed in the US for 6 months to a year so they can 'translate' it into American English. It's a very impatient wait, let me tell you... Unsure

Beyond that, 'colour' and other words of that ilk do not bother me. Sometimes I actually *like* the British version better than the American. (Oh, look, I'm being grammatically ecumenical.)

That being said, Tolkien has confused me forever on how to spell 'defense'. Or is it 'defence'? See, I can no longer remember how it is spelled in the US! I have to rely on spell check for that now... How embarrassing. Unimpressed

...It *is* 'defense', right? *sigh*

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


angelclaw
Powder Monkey

Jul 20 2013, 6:01pm

Post #22 of 43 (137 views)
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Since when did being dumb become cool? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was harassed a lot too growing up because I used "big words" and read way above my age level. But I graduated high school at 16, so I got the last laugh by getting out early!

I used to type in all lowercase all the time, and started using words like "gonna" and other slang in emails to close friends for much the same reason, to seem more approachable and like less of a "nerd." But now that I spend most of my day emailing clients back and forth it would be too much effort NOT to use the shift key Wink


Maciliel
Sailing Master


Jul 20 2013, 6:01pm

Post #23 of 43 (135 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... just to add.... spelling variations, when they're not egregious (like "dohgge" for "dog") are not the same thing as grammar (as you probably know already). spelling is just rules for standardized representation, but doesn't have a lot to do with the natural grammar of languages (e.g., subject-verb-noun = certain case; adding "s" / "es" as a morpheme makes a plural).

sorry, just the linguist in me wanting to come out and make merry.

i rather like some of the british pronunciations... "la-bohr-a-tor-ee" over the american "lab-rah-tor-ee."

regionalism abounds here, as well (pronunciation). ask folks over the u.s. how they pronounce "squirrel," and how many syllables it has. most people in the northeast pronounce it as if it the word had one syllable, "skwerl." so, are the native speakers "abbreviating" it? or has the word actually transformed, due to the inherent structure of its phonemes (smallest units of sound that can be used to mark a functional change in meaning) being easily run together into one syllable? and are we now speaking the current word correctly, but spelling it archaically?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jul 20 2013, 6:02pm)


Maciliel
Sailing Master


Jul 20 2013, 6:08pm

Post #24 of 43 (126 views)
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i suspect [In reply to] Can't Post

 
this is a problem throughout the ages.

feel free to let your knowledge and love of language run as free and fast as shadowfax. no need to rein it in here.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Magpie
Captain


Jul 20 2013, 6:28pm

Post #25 of 43 (125 views)
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I do think that accounts for some of them. [In reply to] Can't Post

And, although my inclination is to be quite forgiving of their writing style, that doesn't really go far when I really have no clue what they were saying. So, although I don't see any need to comment on their writing style, I also can't address their question, either.

But I don't think this translation issue accounts for all of them. And I actually am not sure it's a deliberate scoffing of convention (as in no capitals, all capitals, no space after punctuation... those I'm used to). I have to wonder if they really know how to formulate an idea in their head and then craft their words such that we know what they are thinking. That is, it almost seems more like a lack of skill rather than a deliberate style.

And sometimes, I think people are just too much in a hurry. I work for a director that is intelligent and runs a division that requires her to be intelligent. We sell the desire to be intelligent. But some of her emails to me are just incomprehensible. She's writing on such the fly that the grammar is muddled and assumptions are made that I'm in her head (do that one we did before) and the wrong words are used for things. (for example, I once was told by another person to add the logo as a drop shadow to a piece of marketing. I was completely confused until I figured out they meant watermark.) I know that it's not just me that can't understand them because when I take them to my direct supervisor for more guidance, she just says, "I have no clue what she wants... go talk to her." lol.

I used to tell my kids that they had wonderful ideas in their heads but if they couldn't find a way to express them such that others understood them, then no one would ever know about those wonderful ideas. I'm not sure people value concise, articulate speech like they once did. It's all about speed these days. I've even seen a trend to post five words in a post then go back and edit it to be more informative because if they wrote the post in a more articulate, informative way before posting, they wouldn't be *first*.

...on a side note, I took a LOTR class at Barnes and Noble University with a woman from Colombia. Her English was quite understandable but not perfect. She seemed to retain some of the flavor of her natural Spanish in the way she wrote in English because she had the most unusual but wonderful turn of phrases that just enchanted me. To a quick read, these were not intelligently written posts if one judged them on how strictly they adhered to the standards of writing in English. But she was very intelligent and very emotionally intuitive about Tolkien and had wonderful things to say and her writing was almost poetic at times. I copied off and kept quite a few things she wrote on Tolkien and love to share them with people to this day. That kind of post... is everything it needs to be. And it's not the kind of post I'm shaking my head about.

Another poster was a young girl with endless amounts of energy and passion. Her posts tended to run very lengthy and almost in a stream of consciousness style.... with very few paragraph breaks. Again, it was not standard English writing style but I always loved reading her stuff because she not only had something to say worth reading, her stream of consciousness passion almost made it an art form in itself! Can that writing be improved. Yes. and I have no doubt that she improved as she went through high school and hopefully college. That is also not the sort of post I'm shaking my head about! :-)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by Magpie on Jul 20 2013, 6:29pm)

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