'The Eldar did not at first recognize these as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. They only became aware of their existence indeed when they attacked the Eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places.

The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves, and they called them Levain tad-dail, or simply Tad-dail, and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the acquaintance of the Naugrim, the Tad-dail were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone.

There were then few of them surviving, and they were very wary, and too fearful to attack any Elf, unless their hiding-places were approached too nearly. The Sindar gave them the names Nogotheg 'Dwarflet', or Nogoth niben 'Petty Dwarf'.

The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven our from the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious. But they still acknowledged their kinship and resented any injuries done to them.

Indeed it was one of their grievances against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there. This grievance was set aside, when treaties were made between the Dwarves and the Sindar, in consideration of the plea that the Petty-dwarves had never declared themselves to the Eldar, nor presented any claims to land or habitations, but had at once attacked the newcomers in darkness and ambush. But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mim, the only Petty-dwarf who played a memorable part in the Annals of Beleriand.'

JRRT, War of the Jools

…a chivalrous obligation to defend them; the pull of family ties; opportunities for Turin to prove his great worth. He's not very interested in them as people. or anyone else; male, female, elf, "Man", dwarf.

That very indifference is a turn-on for some people. Turin would also be a magnet to rescue fantasists. Then he's also handsome, we learn, and a prince.

She was a princess and presumably had a pack of eager suitors, yet he was the one man who wasn't chasing her.

It sounds a fairly typical archetype of good looking male, being followed by many adoring females but being either unaware or dismissive of their regard (Note I am not being sexist here- the archetype is the same with the genders reversed with good looking narcissistic female stringing adoring men along!). Compare him with Aragorn- another leader of Men who is, seemingly, adored by women. He is aware of Eowyn's love for him and whilst he does not return her love, he grieves that he must cause her emotional pain in rejecting her. Quite different reaction to Turin, although one could argue that their starts in life were not that dissimilar- Both effectively lose their fathers to the forces of evil at en early age, both are then fostered by Elf-lords in Elven kingdoms- albeit that Aragorn has his mother with him, unlike Turin (maybe that is what made all the difference). Both are unaware of their true identities early on.
With regards to Turin and Nienor- I think that you could be right Brethil, in that there may have been an echo of Lalaith in Nienor that Turin sensed. With regards to their incest- their morality is not in doubt here- neither of them has the faintest idea that they are brother and sister. I find this an interesting comparison to Siegmund and Sieglinde in Wagner's Ring Cycle- whereby the Siegmund is held prisoner by Sieglinde's husband and the couple meet for the first time since early childhood. Initially they are not aware of their relationship, but they are attracted to each other. Through talking, they then realise that they are brother and sister, but decide to overlook that small detail and escape together, becoming lovers!

I feel that Thingol has improved his attitude towards Men and maybe some grudging admiration for Beren. He now has some investment in the future of the race of Men- his daughter is married to one and his grandchild will be half Man and half Elf/Maia. At this stage, it may not be clear whether Dior will be more Man or Immortal. By this time, Thingol has seen and heard of Men doing more heroic things than in the past. He took Turin in out of respect for his father and comes to love him as a surrogate son. It probably helps that Turin looks more like an elf from the descriptions from him.

Regarding Melian and Galadriel, there are a lot of parallels, except for the fact the Galadriel's husband is more willing to listen to his wife's advice than Melian's! It is interesting that in many ways, Melian seems to have more the powers of a Vala rather than a Maia. Certainly she seems more effective against Morgoth than certain of the Valar in Aman, even if it is in only a passive manner. I'm not so sure that there are implicit gender roles between Melian and Morgoth, more a good/evil divide IMO, although I see what you're saying Brethil and certainly one could argue for the feminine peaceful resistance role versus the aggressive male role.

Some critics around here have complained before this about the idea that the Elves hunt at all. From the evidence of the Hobbit they clearly do, but every other indication of their life-style in LotR and the post-LotR Sil suggests that they are vegetarian.

Mim, it is stated was old, however due to the ambiguous amount of time between the Dwarves' awakening and the CoH, it is impossible to REALLY know if he referred to the Fathers or not. My personal opinion though would be not. Dwarves live about 250+yrs. right? Too short a time span for the dwindling of an entire race. IMHO, of course. I agree, that's why I was trying to do a calculation of how many generations of Dwarves we were potentially estimating; but with such a huge gap from the shortest to the widest estimate in time of the First Age (especially the Starlight Years) I am left unable to really come up with a decent number. Estimating a potential median age of reproduction (with maybe a two-year gestation) at 80-100 years, the math is easy enough but the time period is the kicker. It would also seem that the Petty-Dwarves, Mim here, evince less stubborn pride. I cannot imagine Gimli begging for his life. Very much agreed!

Mim's home also, would seem to be an ancient communal dwelling, a common trait of Dwarves it would seem. They would from antiquity live in secret place under the earth. I wonder how they got that idea? Instinct perhaps? Reaction to the roving evils? I tend to feel that because the Seven Father's were placed in stone, were kept safe there are awakened to life there (six of them with wives at their sides), that such places would always have special meaning to them. I think that they might live on other situations but never feel quite right about it - excepting Gimli, who has a touch of the Elvish due to his friendship with Legolas. I think it also underlines a sense of the spirit connection of the Dwarves with Arda, and perhaps also their distance from the realm of Spirit; due to their origins as Eru's 'adopted' Children.

Mim also likes Turin, though he thought him an Elf. What about him gives Mim this liking? We don't get *much* info in the published Sil. I think there are 2 comments: one is when Turin first meets Mim (in CoH) and promises him that he may die, but will not be bound again. I think its an iconic line for both of them - Turin speaking from his souls and reached Mim within as well. Also when Turin offers the 'ransom' it seems to touch Min's sensibilities and pride - that's why I wondered if it was a Petty-dwarf custom or a Great Dwarf custom, as he refers back to fathers of Old. (Hence my attempt at calculation!)

Men also, as stated by Androg, seem to have had conflict in the East with the Dwarves. I wonder what came of this? Good question Rembrethil - Men and Dwarves don't seem to hold grudges about whatever it is.

Mim's roots also pose a question. Why was he so attached? I know there was a draft that explained that they were a hidden gold store, but do you think this was the final idea?

Mim as a father? He was the last, and probably knew it, of his race. His sons had no future concievably, or did they? He was deeply grieved at Ibun's death, the grief of a natural parent could explain this, but I ask this: What if he had a plan, possibly to reconcile with his greater kin, and marry his sons into their houses? True, without that they were doomed. If there WAS a hidden gold store - as you said above - is that what he hoped to use to buy his way back into a Great Dwarf family, for one of his sons? To kidnap a Dwarf maid (granted they stay hidden...hmmm, might be a good reason for that there!) Unlike Men and Elves, Dwarves are not the same species and I do not think (in JRRT's world) any hybridization was possible.

More later...my battery is dying. (So annoying! See you later!)

Thingol: It's remarkable to me that Thingol has such a drastic revision of his attitude toward Men. I attribute it to Beren, who went to hell and back for the sake of Luthien (even if she did most of the work; she probably didn't tell Daddy that), plus Beren saved his life from Carcharoth. He had to realize that with Luthien as his only child, all of his descendants would have man-blood in them. That Thingol, so proud and prejudiced, could pivot on his racial attitude from the actions of one Man makes me like him for the first time in the book. It IS remarkable! I myself have a first bit of fondness for Thingol in your B and L chapter, when he sticks by wounded Beren. So its a personal investment now (with Dior), in these Men, but also maybe some regard for what they are capable of at their best. Do we think that perhaps some of Melian's talk has touched him, that he is seeing Men as the future...or is it merely the personal aspect....

Melian: I like your comparison to Galadriel. They're both smarter and more magical than their husbands and defy the Shadow from their secluded, protected kingdoms (or queendoms). Galadriel proves herself more aggressive. She summons the White Council to oppose Sauron, helps hide Eorl in his ride to rescue Cirion, and herself destroys Dol Guldur. What's left unanswered is how Melian would have acted if Doriath were the last kingdom standing and was attacked from all sides by Morgoth. Does the Girdle keep out overwhelming armies? What if Sauron or Morgoth himself showed up to challenge her power? My gut tells me she'd lose a magical duel against Morgoth. Would she strike out at him, or counsel Thingol to flee with their people to the Sirion havens? But Morgoth has a fear of powerful women like Varda. Would he fear Melian too and not want to challenge her in person for fear of losing? He was afraid of Fingolfin. He also hated the Noldor more than the Sindar, so maybe he didn't think going to great expense to break through the Girdle was worth it? I think if it were the last stand, Doriath would fall. With nothing else to occupy Morgoth's focus, and if he was able to truly surround it, I think it would have been over, and the Girdle would not stand. Hmmm - I may agree with you, and she may have had them flee; with the Blessed Realm now cut off...I wonder what might have happened. Would she have left Thingol? Or beseeched the Valar for passage for the both of them, leaving the rest behind?

Gender roles: so many of Tolkien's women are "man-hearted" that Melian stands out as one of the more passive ones. I suppose Rian is too; she just plain gave up when widowed. But the majority are proud and willful. I'm not sure Melian is necessarily being more "woman-hearted" by playing a passive role. I think it's that the Ainur are inexplicably passive in general. So a vote for status versus gender! Noted!