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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Well, if i suddenly can post, I might as well have a go at it...

sador
Valinor


Jul 18 2013, 8:20pm


Views: 150
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Well, if i suddenly can post, I might as well have a go at it... [In reply to] Can't Post

But perhaps the long break will teach me moderation. Who knows?

Are the names and the order of naming a foresight? Or is Nienor born to Mourning because of her sisters untimely loss and Hurin's capture?
Well, Tolkien is rather heavy-handed with his names, is he not? Just like telling us that Turin was born "with omens of sorrow" (The Grey Annals). I'm glad Christopher omitted that from the published Silmarillion!

Regarding you question, however, the answer might be simle - Urwen was named Lalaith for her laughter after she was born, at a time of high hopes indeed (another detail Christopher left out, in a perhaps less happy decision); and Nienor was named after her people were defeated, her father lost and her brother sent away.


Beleg the Elf still chooses to take this blade. But is her prophesy fully correct?
Well, it did not seem to love Turin - although it did mourn for Beleg (per Gwindor, and see its last words), so arguably Melian was wrong!
Also, why would it break upon taking Turin's life? Is this a sign of his greatness, or did the sword really love him? (Note that this detail is not in the Kalevala excerpt you've posted)
At least the second part of Melian's prophecy proved correct!


If these things are foresight, do we think that Turin as an Edain simply does not perceive them for what they are?
Would an elf even notice it? You seem to be assuming that Turin is just a blind Man, ignoring the signs. But he could be a hyper-sensitive who tries to learn to ignore such things as omens.


Is this all an example of the higher vision and comprehension of the Firstborn and a Vala, and how it all tells against the hapless, clueless Edain?
I would rather say that Gwindor had learned from bitter experience how Morgoth's evil works.


Is there premonition in Niniel's refusal of Turambar's proposal?
Tolkien indicates so. But is there premonition in Brandir's warnings, or merely jealousy? And perhaps Niniel simply heeded Brandir's advice for a time, before love proved stronger than gratitude.


We have already read of pure, uncorrupted love in the immediate connection of Beren and Luthien.
How?

Yes, I know that's what Tolkien meant. But did he write it down anywhere - or are we readers just romantic-minded?


Do we have its moral opposite here, deep yet sadly corrupted love, unknowingly impure at its base, in the hesitation of Niniel?
If it is "unknowingly impure", can we call it "corrupted"? You seem to consider love an independant force, rather than an interaction between the two characters.
In the world of Greco-Roman myth, this is natural and obvious. But Tolkien's pantheon does not include any Vala who is in charge of love, and as a rule the Holy Ones appear to be quite ignorant of such quirks of the Children's psyche.


Subject User Time
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Prophesy and Premonition Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 14 2013, 2:59pm
    Great start - you'll be "Hurin" from me when I've read the chapter! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 14 2013, 5:04pm
        Indeed, "Morwen" you get back Furincurunir! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 15 2013, 12:12am
    Of Turin and warnings CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 15 2013, 1:31pm
        Points in response ... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 16 2013, 1:25am
    On the topic of the curse. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 15 2013, 2:53pm
        Excellent point Rembrethil! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 15 2013, 7:05pm
            Much thanks! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 15 2013, 9:20pm
                Well CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 15 2013, 9:51pm
                    An Invitation graciuosly accepted. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 15 2013, 10:07pm
                        Happy to have you around Rembrethil! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 15 2013, 10:41pm
        Superb commentary, Rembreth. Thanks. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 15 2013, 7:18pm
        I agree... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 15 2013, 10:07pm
            Húrin treats his doom like it's an opponent noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 16 2013, 5:49pm
                Darn, I meant "Turin", not "Hurin"! Sorry! / noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 16 2013, 6:18pm
                    If I'm "Hurin" you correctly, you need to start "Thorin" out your frozen "T" on the keyboard...// Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 16 2013, 9:44pm
                        Are we dragon out the puns again? // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 16 2013, 9:54pm
                            Aman to that...done it once, Anduin it again // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 12:09am
                        Thanks for Beren with my stupid typo… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 6:32am
                            Anyway, everything is Hunky-Dori now.... // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 1:41pm
            Yes, One does wonder how much Morgoth actually has to do… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 16 2013, 9:26pm
                Starting to feel like that's true Furincurunir... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 16 2013, 9:43pm
                    Well, seems a one-off to me CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 17 2013, 10:45am
                        .."how adapted this story was from another source" noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 12:23pm
                            I am assuming elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 17 2013, 1:21pm
                                Correct Elaen Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:33pm
                            See upthread CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 17 2013, 3:24pm
                        Who is messing with Turin Goatsinger? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 12:46pm
                            "Song of Goats" ???? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:35pm
                                Yep, "goat song" is etymologically sound. But I'd have thought… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 8:24pm
                                    Hmmm. Might hear a lot of thumping, fainting type sounds. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 18 2013, 3:38am
                            Excellent points here Furincurunir Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:49pm
                                Anglachel, the psychopath with a heart of meteoric iron telain Send a private message to telain Jul 18 2013, 6:51pm
                                    .Sword talk... TORn Amateur Symposium Send a private message to TORn Amateur Symposium Jul 19 2013, 1:32am
                                    Best profile of Anglachel I've read!!!! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 1:47am
                                    Creepy swords CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 20 2013, 6:56pm
                                        It does cut two ways... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 21 2013, 2:22am
                                            Also, ferrophobia? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 21 2013, 5:03pm
                                                Interesting to be "thinking like a sword" in the context of NoWiz's metaphor...// ;-) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 21 2013, 8:25pm
                                                    +Snert!+ elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 21 2013, 9:15pm
                                    Interesting information found in Bruinen's History of the Hobbit Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 25 2013, 3:06am
                        Dragons and curses Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:29pm
                            A thought on the motivations of Dragons Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 17 2013, 6:14pm
                                Oooo - well done!!!! You read my mind Rembrethil! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 6:21pm
                                It's a good question! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 9:06pm
                                    My personal thoughts on Dragons Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 17 2013, 9:58pm
                                        Can't wait to post it BTW!!! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 18 2013, 4:02am
                                        interesting! telain Send a private message to telain Jul 18 2013, 6:21pm
                                            An explanation Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 18 2013, 6:47pm
    Nienor's intuition and suicide CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 17 2013, 10:53am
        Niniel's Leap Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:52pm
            What if... telain Send a private message to telain Jul 18 2013, 7:06pm
                Well we know you are fun when you post tired...! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 1:55am
                "I told you, man: fight, trust and be full of hope!" Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jul 19 2013, 4:33pm
                    Love your inversion point here Darkstone Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 5:55pm
        Seems to be a pattern. Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jul 19 2013, 4:41pm
    Finduilas: "She alone stands between thee and thy doom." noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 12:13pm
        Finduilas Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 6:18pm
    I didn't know which post to reply to. Werde Spinner Send a private message to Werde Spinner Jul 17 2013, 11:41pm
        Glad to see you Werde Spinner! Addressing all your great points... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 18 2013, 4:01am
    Well, if i suddenly can post, I might as well have a go at it... sador Send a private message to sador Jul 18 2013, 8:20pm
        Glad to see you Sador! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 2:40am
        Comments on names/words in Tolkien. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 19 2013, 5:20pm
    This entire thread - and all of the postings - quite impressive ltnjmy Send a private message to ltnjmy Jul 18 2013, 9:21pm
        *waving* Hi! Nice to see you! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 2:44am

 
 
 

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