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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The BIG Question?
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Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 18 2013, 2:05pm

Post #1 of 31 (2349 views)
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The BIG Question? Can't Post

Where do you stand on the Break
Between
TDoS and TaBA!

Some think Smaug will die.. Ending TDoS?
Some think Smaug will be Flying to Laketown?

It's Been puzzling Bomby
a long time.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 18 2013, 2:19pm

Post #2 of 31 (994 views)
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What I think? [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe that the general audience will feel cheated if Smaug doesn't die in DoS. At the very least, we should see Smaug rouse himself to smash the mountainside and fly off to attack Lake-town.

Chronologically, the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur should take place before Smaug attacks Esgaroth; However, Jackson could avoid showing it until later. Gandalf should start to head North, towards Lake-town and Lonely Mountain, at the latest, when he learns of Smaug's demise.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Subaruman
Bree


Jul 18 2013, 3:02pm

Post #3 of 31 (979 views)
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I think the break will be after a mix of two battles: [In reply to] Can't Post

1) White council removal of the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.

2) PJ's newly-created fight between the Company & Smaug

This would leave TaBA to kick off with the Laketown battle, go through all the troop movements/politics (both good alliance and bad), culminate with the Bo5A, then have the wrap up/journey home/gandalf & Balin visit/slight bridge material.

Personally this is the way I see there being enough material for another 2 films.

"Here is a book very unsuitable for dramatic or semi-dramatic representation. If that is attempted, it needs more space, a lot of space."

- J.R.R. Tolkien, 1956


Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 18 2013, 3:08pm

Post #4 of 31 (918 views)
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Both [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug will die at the end of DOS.

Smaug's evil(er) twin will die in TABA durin BoFA.

(You really can't have too many dragons.)

******************************************
Revenge is a dish best served with pinto beans and muffins.


Lothwen
Rivendell


Jul 18 2013, 3:36pm

Post #5 of 31 (825 views)
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Smaug's evil twin...LOL! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'There lie the woods of Lothlorien!' said Legolas. 'That is the fairest of all the dwellings of my people. There are no trees like the trees of that land. For in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold.'


Arandir
Gondor


Jul 18 2013, 4:19pm

Post #6 of 31 (957 views)
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After the EMPIRE interview [In reply to] Can't Post

it seems that DOS will end with the Smaug/Dwarves confrontation.

I was actually looking forward to the Laketown sequence - which now seems destined to be in TABA - however, I'm not sure how early in the film it will play out considering you have one of the major climaxes of the entire story; it can't just be done within the first 30 minutes.

Yet, at the same time, you need to leave a bit of running time for the BoFA build up and that sequence itself.

So yeah, I guess DOS might end with Smaug storming off towards Laketown ....

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Jul 18 2013, 5:10pm

Post #7 of 31 (914 views)
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There is a simple reason *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

why Smaug can't die in DOS and this was brought up a lot of times:

When the dragon dies the major audience (who hasn't read the book) won't see a reason to go to the last movie. For them the story is about the Dwarves reclaiming their homeland and killing Smaug. If Smaug dies... well what is left in their eyes? Peter Jackson has to come up with an almost impossible cliffhanger solution at the end... but which one? Azog arriving at Gundabad and calling for a huge Orc army? Thranduil leaving his Woodland realm to attack the Dwarves? I can't find any.

And what would we tell our unaware friends when they ask us "And what's left for the third movie?". What would you say? Well.. politics, a big battle and Bilbo returns home. Wow sounds amazing... not.

And after all the title says it. THERE and back again. If Smaug is already dead... what is "there" standing for? Bilbo/the Dwarves have to go somewhere. If we already start with politics... well that would be very boring for the major audience. There has to be more.

That's why I think the finale of DOS will be the new confrontation between Smaug and the Dwarves after the dragen left Erebor. Peter Jackson said that Smaug is "really pissed off". Perhaps he transforms Erebor into a bruning mountain or something. And after that he will fly to Lake Town. Perfect cliffhanger. It's torture in a way and leaving the movie at this moment... well what would you feel like? But after Smaugs death? I don't see it.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jul 18 2013, 5:11pm)


Arandir
Gondor


Jul 18 2013, 5:23pm

Post #8 of 31 (863 views)
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The only problem I find *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with everything you stated and I do believe that DOS will end with the Dwarves/Smaug confrontation.

However, I'm still curious as to whether the dragon will actually leave Erebor to fly towards Laketown at the end of DOS - because that would mean that TABA's opening sequence will be Smaug's demise and I'm not sure it really holds that the main villain throughout the trilogy ends up being killed in the first few minutes of film 3.

I think that's the question we should be asking: will Smaug fly towards Laketown at the end of DOS?

Unless PJ really decides to postpone Smaug's death until during BoFA (which I would certainly be against) - and yet, that would make sense in a way - one climax where you've got the resolution of the story (Smaug dead) and the BoFA concluded.

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Jul 18 2013, 5:38pm

Post #9 of 31 (813 views)
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It's not the climax of the movie and not of the book too [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
and yet, that would make sense in a way - one climax where you've got the resolution of the story (Smaug dead) and the BoFA concluded

That makes no sense because the BoFA only takes place because of the dragons death.



Quote
I'm not sure it really holds that the main villain throughout the trilogy ends up being killed in the first few minutes of film 3

Is he the main villain of the trilogy? I don't think so.



Quote
that would mean that TABA's opening sequence will be Smaug's demise

I think it would be interessting, wouldn't. Starting with explosions and such things almost like the first one but even earlier. I think they will lenghten Smaugs attack letting him destroy the city of Laketown before he is killed by Bard. But the real climax will be the BoFA. A movie starting with a climax and ending with another one... can't see the bad thing about it ;)




"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Arandir
Gondor


Jul 18 2013, 5:55pm

Post #10 of 31 (768 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
That makes no sense because the BoFA only takes place because of the dragons death.

I agree - but who knows what PJ may concoct? Unsure


Quote
Is he the main villain of the trilogy? I don't think so.

Isn't Greed a metaphorical representation of a villain? And aren't dragons in literature supposed to represet human greed at its worst? At least, that was my reasoning ...


Quote
A movie starting with a climax and ending with another one... can't see the bad thing about it ;)

Definitely not complaining about it hehe! Laugh Just a bit concerned by the short time between the beginning of the film and such an important scene taking place so early ... of course, editing will play the ultimate role - so fingers crossed!

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 18 2013, 6:06pm

Post #11 of 31 (796 views)
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I was also thought *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug would be alive for TABA. It just feels like, no matter which way you spin it, a dragonless TABA would be ridiculously anti-climatic.

Even though Tolkien didn't write Smaug as a traditional villain that sticks around to the end, the movie-going audience is going to expect it. I'm expecting the Laketown attack to be about 45 minutes or 1 hour into TABA.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jul 18 2013, 6:28pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 18 2013, 10:11pm

Post #12 of 31 (634 views)
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For what it's worth..... [In reply to] Can't Post

And I've said it before, but no one has yet come up with an argument that convinces me otherwise....

I'm sure Smaug's fall will be the climax of DoS. To use a scene so vast and so dramatic at the start of a film would effectively be to throw it away. (I suspect that this could have been one of the reasons they went for three films). Reasons?

1. It's epic. Too big a scene to follow with a huge battle.

2. Seems to me that Peter Jackson doesn't do cliff-hanger endings. His pattern is action climax - resolution - hint to the audience of what's to come.

3. Bard's line along the lines of 'if you awaken this beast you will destroy us all' needs to lead to something within the film - if he says it then I reckon we'll see it happen.

I'm betting that the ending will play out along the lines of: Smaug goes to Laketown, does what he does, arrow, big splash.... Cut to dwarves in the mountain, realising Smaug hasn't come back - Hooray, result, dwarves have the gold - and Erebor, they start making plans. It's over.... except.... the last thing we as the audience see is the word beginning to get around that Smaug is dead.... to the survivors by the Lake.... to the Elves in Mirkwood.... to the orcs - and the armies preparing to descend on the mountain. It ain't over yet....Ominous music, cue titles.

That's how I see it at the moment. But of course, this is only based on the book. I've no more idea than anyone else has how Dol Guldur will play into this and it could change everything.


Imladris18
Lorien

Jul 18 2013, 10:17pm

Post #13 of 31 (615 views)
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This. [In reply to] Can't Post

Plus, I have a hunch Azog will still be around and everyone will be looking forward to him being killed in TaBA.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 18 2013, 11:27pm

Post #14 of 31 (576 views)
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I have that same hunch... [In reply to] Can't Post

If I were a betting man, I'd put my money down on Azog being present at least until the Bo5A, at which point he will be dispatched (hopefully beheaded) by either Thorin, Dain, or some combination of the two.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jul 19 2013, 1:20am

Post #15 of 31 (608 views)
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It's simple really-the answer's already been given to us! [In reply to] Can't Post

They blurred out quite a bit during the vlogs and production videos because we "weren't supposed to see that yet" and have hidden EVERYTHING TO DO WITH TABA.

Yet, we SEE Bard walking over roofs and glowing orange light sporting his giant bow in the vlogs (can't remember which one but there have been several screenshots on here posted of that!)

So it's quite simple really:

1. If they had wanted it hidden, they never would have filmed it in the vlogs, thus ensuring that it will be in DOS.

2. I cannot think of any other possible reason for the orange flickering glow of light than to represent fire, and it's the SAME lighting we see Thorin jump to (Nori?) in the latest vlog, which was supposed to be when the dwarves are confronting Smaug.

3. PJ seems to be following the main points for each film from LOTR just with TH story (ie- similar sequence of events- AUJ followed similar types of events as FOTR in terms of-Shire, traveling, action sequence, Rivendell, more epic walking, under mountain confrontation, one last good fight scene, then a glimpse ahead to the next step in their journey, end credits). Therefore, like TT, DOS will have a good Helm's Deep-like battle scene, only with Laketown and Smaug. A smaller but significant battle leading up to the huge battle that is the climax of the trilogy.


So, my conclusion is....(drumroll please)


SMAUG WILL DIE IN DOS WHEN LAKETOWN BURNS because the lighting was the SAME as the dragon fire lighting in the snippet we already saw.


How do we know? The thrush that is PJ&co told us Wink

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 19 2013, 1:36am

Post #16 of 31 (550 views)
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You make a good point... [In reply to] Can't Post

However, the trilogy switch kind of messed up what we are and what we are not supposed to see.

We saw a lot of DOS footage in the vlogs for AUJ (Mirkwood most notably)

I guess I really just want the attack to be in TABA, so I'm fishing for ways that it's possible Sly

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


cats16
Tol Eressea

Jul 19 2013, 2:03am

Post #17 of 31 (537 views)
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A thing I've been thinking about... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is at what point in TABA will Smaug's attack on Lake-town occur, assuming he does do so in the last film? It's a little easier for me to think about when I compare it to LOTR's structure (I know it's different, but it's the best insight we have to speculate on now). Would the attack on Osgiliath align with Smaug's attack, then? It can't be too soon for obvious reasons. But I feel like that's a reasonable possibility. After that, I have no idea how to speculate on TABA's structure compared to LOTR, because the DG plot is a variable I have no idea how to fully account for, yet. DOS should shed a great deal of insight on this.

That being said, I keep thinking that (once again, assuming Smaug dies in TABA) the total running time of TABA could rival that of ROTK when it's all said and done. It seems like multiple endings will have to happen here, too (probably more drawn out over time also. A gradual descent from the climax of the battle.). Maybe not as many as ROTK, but not one simple, nicely wrapped up fade to black either.

Just some random thoughts popping into my head at the moment.


(This post was edited by cats16 on Jul 19 2013, 2:05am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 19 2013, 4:13am

Post #18 of 31 (486 views)
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GREAT Posts...GroovyGuys&Gals [In reply to] Can't Post

seems that "The All-Knowing 3D Eyes"
of PJ will Have, the Time... to descide?

Bomby is sooo... Perplexed?


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 19 2013, 4:44am

Post #19 of 31 (488 views)
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VLOG [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't it show Laketown on fire?
If so wouldn't that mean Smaug gets the shaft in DOS?

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



Arandir
Gondor


Jul 19 2013, 11:05am

Post #20 of 31 (387 views)
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Which vlog was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I seem to remember seeing something about Laketown on fire but I can't think in which vlog it was ... Crazy

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 19 2013, 12:04pm

Post #21 of 31 (391 views)
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The most recent vlog included a shot or two. [In reply to] Can't Post

But the alternate vlog #8 contained the most shots of Laketown on fire.

Smile

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




Arandir
Gondor


Jul 19 2013, 12:13pm

Post #22 of 31 (368 views)
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Thanks Daniel ... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But the alternate vlog #8 contained the most shots of Laketown on fire.

Agreed - and considering that back then the idea was still for 2 movies, things may have been shifted forward by the introduction of the trilogy idea.

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog


Noria
Rohan

Jul 19 2013, 12:25pm

Post #23 of 31 (388 views)
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Im having a hard time with this one [In reply to] Can't Post

The White Council/Dol Guldur plot is such an unknown how it will play out and when it will culminate that I find it very hard to guess what PJ will do.

As Dormouse says, PJ hasn't given us any real cliffhangers so far in his Middle Earth saga (thankfully). Each movie has ended after a struggle that resolves the immediate crisis with the denouement making it clear that the big bad is still out there. I expect something similar from DoS.

It seems to me logical that DoS should end with the death of the dragon killed at Laketown after a humongous battle. But I tend to agree that some of the audience will be perplexed and put off, unless the film makers have brought the Necromancer plot along enough that it looms large in our minds. And quoting Dormouse again, they show us the gathering storm that will culminate in the BOFA.

I dont think that finishing both the Smaug and Necromancer plots in DoS would work very well, timeline be damned. PJ has said that one of his favourite movies is Zulu because of the long slow-rising tension before the battle actually starts but IMO TaBA needs more than that.

So Ill tentatively go with DoS ending with the death of Smaug, assuming that PJ has laid the groundwork to make us eager to see what happens in TaBA.


Taliesin
The Shire


Jul 19 2013, 1:15pm

Post #24 of 31 (363 views)
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Question is [In reply to] Can't Post

Will Smaug's evil twin have a goatee?


Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 19 2013, 8:21pm

Post #25 of 31 (248 views)
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Oh, yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

Dragon Beard Candy is evil! So delicious, but evil...

Yum..

******************************************
"The tragedy of territorial geeks is that they found the wonderful world of fantasy, then missed its point."
-Luke McKinney

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