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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Why Azog will be a servant of the Necromancer

GiantMushroomBear
Bree

Jul 16 2013, 12:09am

Post #1 of 8 (799 views)
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Why Azog will be a servant of the Necromancer Can't Post

First off, I would like to point out some parallels between Azog and Saruman. For one thing, they are both portrayed as white in color. Saruman in robes, and Azog in skin. Also, in Fellowship of the Ring, there are two main standpoints: Saruman and the Fellowship. Likewise, the two main standpoints in The Hobbit are of the the Dwarves and Azog and his hunter orcs. Saruman was the antagonist of Fellowship as Azog was to The Hobbit. But there's one more thing. Saruman was a pawn of Sauron, someone more powerful, yet in the very much kept in the shadows. If these parallels between these two are anything to go by, it could mean that Azog is also a pawn of Sauron (The Necromancer.)

Other than through similarities to Saruman, their are other reasons that having Azog serve the Necromancer makes sense. For one thing, makes a correlation between the otherwise irrelevant Necromancer subplot and the story at hand. Sauron sends a pack of hunter orcs after the dwarves so he can use the dragon for his own purposes. It's concise. It's perfect.

It also fixes one problem with AUJ journey: Between Smaug, The Necromancer, and the orcs, there were TOO MANY VILLAINS. Seriously. If this idea goes along, it would fix this problem completely by making all these villains connected in some way.

In addition, it would get rid of that whole vengeance subplot between Thorin and Azog. Honestly, why would Azog follow Thorin all the way from Moria to the Misty Mountains just because he cut his arm off? And how?


boldog
Rohan


Jul 16 2013, 2:06am

Post #2 of 8 (408 views)
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im still cringing... [In reply to] Can't Post

at the thought of bolg instead of azog, and how much better and reasonable it would be. Bolg seeks revenge for his fathers death, and utter defeat of their armies in azanulbizar. Bolg joins with necromancer, and that should be how the story goes.
as you are saying though, I do believe very much that azog and necromancer are connected for many reasons.
1. azogs son works in dol guldur
2. the nazgul theme playing during thorins, attack at azog
3. the azog theme and dol guldur theme are both the exact same melody, only played with different instrments, and in different styles

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 16 2013, 3:58am

Post #3 of 8 (366 views)
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i think they will spill the beans about Azog's backstory in DOS [In reply to] Can't Post

he'll probably fail to kill/capture Thorin and company and report back to dol-duldur, it could go either way in-regards to him being resurrected by the necromancer or he simply joined the necromancer. I still think there's a possibility of Thorin slaying Azog and Bolg killing Thorin like how it is in the book/mythology.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Jul 16 2013, 3:59am)


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Jul 16 2013, 10:24am

Post #4 of 8 (282 views)
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Here are some of my thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
Bolg joins with necromancer [..]

--> Here we've got again the main question: Can an Orc choose to serve Sauron or is he forced to do so? Do they have a free will or are they controlled by him or by their fear of him? I remember a long debate about this simple question here on TORn. :D



Quote
1. azogs son works in dol guldur

--> Do we know that this is still official? Things changed very often when Bolg was still the main antagonist and torturer of Dol Guldur.



Quote
2. the nazgul theme playing during thorins, attack at azog

--> The reason for that obvious use is yet to be disclosed.



Quote
3. the azog theme and dol guldur theme are both the exact same melody, only played with different instrments, and in different styles

--> Both motifs (and also the Hunter Orc Motif) are variations of the Impending Doom Motif from LOTR which is basically one of the major Mordor motifs. So there is definitely a connection.

What do we know from the source material about Azog?
He was once sent there by Sauron with other Orcs and Goblins to populate Moria. He ruled there as king until he was defeated and killed at the Battle of Azanulbizar by Dain. Later his son Bolg, King of Gundabad wants to take revenge on Thorin and his people for killing Azog.

What do we know from the movie about Azog?
He is a giant pale Orc from Gundabad who wants to wipe out the line of Durin. He killed King Thror and was defeated by Thorin who cut off his left arm. He fled into Moria. Thought to be dead. Later he reappears to take revenge on Thorin.

Question A:
Why do they take Azog instead of Bolg? There has to be a reason to change the story that much.
Question B:
Was it perhaps Sauron who wanted the end of Durins line?
Question C:
Was it Sauron in secret who wanted the remaining Seven Rings of Power and knew that Thror/Thrain was carrying the most powerful one?
Question D:
Was it perhaps Sauron who incite Azog to take revenge on Thorin?
Question E:
What is Bolgs part in all of this?


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 16 2013, 11:01pm

Post #5 of 8 (171 views)
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If they wanted to go by the mythology... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I still think there's a possibility of Thorin slaying Azog and Bolg killing Thorin like how it is in the book/mythology.


...then Dain Ironfoot would be the one to kill Azog, not Thorin. Thorin actually had nothing to do with Azog in the lore, aside from the fact that Azog killed Thror, who as we all know was Thorin's grandfather.

As for Bolg, I'm thinking he's going to be the one who kills Thorin, and most likely Beorn will be the one to kill Bolg (like it happens in the book). I think that will be the case because it looks like they're setting Bolg up as some kind of rival for Beorn (judging by the bear paws that adorn Bolg's armor). They may use Thorin killing Azog as an impetus for Bolg to kill Thorin, but I hope they don't. I know that the movie version of Thorin is MUCH MUCH more heroic and sympathetic than the arrogant-but-incompetent oaf that Tolkien actually wrote about, but even still Thorin never gets any kind of payoff in the mythology, so I'd like to see Jackson stick with that instead of making Thorin into a big hero and having him kill Azog.


Barrow-Wight
Rohan


Jul 17 2013, 3:48am

Post #6 of 8 (138 views)
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A Thought About The Nazgul Music [In reply to] Can't Post

I was just thinking earlier that maybe the reason they used the nazgul music in that scene is maybe because it just sounded badass with that scene lol maybe they tried different songs but they didn't fit. no necromancer connection or anything just pure awesomeness lol


deskp
Lorien

Jul 17 2013, 4:05am

Post #7 of 8 (116 views)
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nono [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the composer said otherwise.

Also does it make sense for the franchise to have 2 indepentednt evil forces?

The goblins even have connections with Azog and co, certainly Sauron will aswell.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 17 2013, 5:58am

Post #8 of 8 (129 views)
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Ahh! thanks for clearing that up [In reply to] Can't Post

your right its Dain Ironfoot. Well...there is still a chance Dain slays Azog in the BOT5A and than Bolg tries to kill Dain but Thorin comes to his aid and dies defending Dain.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

 
 

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