Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Crazy(?) but Maybe True Rumors or Facts

vexx801
Rivendell


Jul 15 2013, 9:33pm

Post #1 of 19 (1836 views)
Shortcut
Crazy(?) but Maybe True Rumors or Facts Can't Post

Hey folks! So I got to thinking on some of the rumors or at least some of the "crazy" ideas we have heard in regard to DOS and TABA, and I wanted to compile a list of what we have heard and what we know, and put it together.

Note that I do not mean what some may consider crazy as in the inclusion of Legolas, the orcs in Laketown or anything like that. Here is a list of what I mean, and what I am currently aware of:

- In DOS, there may be a flashback where Thranduil relays the history of Orcrist to Thorin. In this flashback, it is said that we see the Fall of Gondolin, and possibly Gothmog the Balrog, Ecthelion the Elf and a young Smaug.
- According to PJ, we are to see more of Sauron's backstory fleshed out. This interview (as I recall) was from when GDT was still attached to the project, but the idea is likely that we would have flashbacks to Sauron's past years and would see him in more of a capacity.
- According to Benedict Cumberbatch, he mentioned something about Sauron being at the Five Legions War or something, and it appears to be the BOFA.

Thoughts on all of this, the plausibility, and any others you've heard?


(This post was edited by vexx801 on Jul 15 2013, 9:42pm)


burgahobbit
Rohan


Jul 16 2013, 1:49am

Post #2 of 19 (862 views)
Shortcut
Two more really crazy ones [In reply to] Can't Post

1. A worse case of number 3. Smaug the dragon's dead body will be possessed by Sauron's spirit during the battle of five armies. He will supposedly fly to Barad-dur at the end and breathe his spirit (wreathed in flame) onto the top of the tower. link

2. Azog and all of the Azanulbizar orcs are all zombies! link 1 and second story link 2

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Jul 16 2013, 1:58am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 16 2013, 7:30am

Post #3 of 19 (655 views)
Shortcut
Gandalf and Galadriel's love scene. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




Bumpypotato
Bree

Jul 16 2013, 10:58am

Post #4 of 19 (617 views)
Shortcut
The funny thing... [In reply to] Can't Post

The funny thing about number 1 is that it does kind of sound like the sort of thing Tolkien could have written. That being said, it'd still be pretty rubbish.


In Reply To
1. A worse case of number 3. Smaug the dragon's dead body will be possessed by Sauron's spirit during the battle of five armies. He will supposedly fly to Barad-dur at the end and breathe his spirit (wreathed in flame) onto the top of the tower. link

2. Azog and all of the Azanulbizar orcs are all zombies! link 1 and second story link 2



flameofudun
Lorien

Jul 16 2013, 6:07pm

Post #5 of 19 (501 views)
Shortcut
Did Benedict actually say that [In reply to] Can't Post

Or is it just an unconfirmed source?

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 16 2013, 6:50pm

Post #6 of 19 (462 views)
Shortcut
He said it during an EMPIRE interview, back in 2012. [In reply to] Can't Post

Read it here.

And the quote in question:


Quote
"Iím playing Smaug through motion-capture and voicing the Necromancer, which is a character in the Five Legions War or something which Iím meant to understand. Heís not actually in the original Hobbit. Itís something [Peter Jackson]ís taken from Lord Of The Rings that he wants to put in there."


Smile

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




flameofudun
Lorien

Jul 16 2013, 7:57pm

Post #7 of 19 (416 views)
Shortcut
Ok. Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like Necromancer could be involved indirectly in the battle. For a minute I thought he was talking about how smaug had a part in the battle office armies,lol this is much better!

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 16 2013, 11:37pm

Post #8 of 19 (418 views)
Shortcut
There is also the Supposed Romance between [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Tauriel & Legolas?

2. Tauriel & Kili?

Bomby is
Dyin' ta know?


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Jul 17 2013, 7:43am

Post #9 of 19 (370 views)
Shortcut
Fall of Gondolin [In reply to] Can't Post

There's no way they can show the Fall of Gondolin. PJ does not have the rights to that story. At most, we might get Thranduil making a few vague comments about Orcrist being forged in Gondolin and the city falling to agents of the Enemy long ago. But I doubt we'll see Ecthelion or Gothmog. They don't appear in the Lord of the Rings appendices or any material that the movies can legally adapt.

The other two rumors I could see happening. We might get some further info or flashbacks about Sauron. And we may see Sauron in some capacity at the Battle of Five Armies, either "physically" present as a shadowy being or as the mastermind behind the orc and goblin army.


cats16
Valinor

Jul 17 2013, 9:45pm

Post #10 of 19 (269 views)
Shortcut
I've never bought this rumor for a second [In reply to] Can't Post

No offense meant to the poster who started the thread for it, I just have a few reasons not to believe it one bit. Despite their claims. I won't say all of my reasons (just to stay on topic and not talk about sources of information) but I'd say a big reason has already been pointed out by DanielLB: not a whiff of information regarding a set being built. Or actors for these roles. Or any mention of it by PJ, Fran, or Philippa or any other crew/cast member for that matter. And no hint of anything within the vlogs.

If they managed to keep something like this so under the radar, props to them. Honestly. But I have no doubt in my mind. Assuming it is true, I would, of course, comfortably admit being wrong and wrap my mind about how the film will be impacted. I'm not saying I'm against it; just that I don't see it happening logistically.

Btw, I agree with your last paragraph. If any rumors have a shot of happening, I see these two being those with the best chance.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 18 2013, 5:35am

Post #11 of 19 (247 views)
Shortcut
Not entirely true. He has rights to use the name Gondolin, and to depict that it [In reply to] Can't Post

was overrun by the servants of Morgoth, and that Turgon was its king, and that Orcrist and Glamdring were wielded there. He can also place Balrogs in the battle as the mightiest of Morgoth's servants and captains, and date it to The First Age. He can even put Earendil there, if he chooses.


All of these things are either explicitly stated in the books or are tacitly detailed. Between Hobbit and LOTR/Appendices we know what Gondolin was, who ruled it, when it flourished and fell, that orcs and dragons were involved, and that it was a kingdom of The High Elves. Those available texts also inform that Morgoth, master of Sauron, was the primary foe of The Elves at that time, and that The Balrogs were, aside from Sauron, his greatest servants, and thus very likely to have been involved in the wars he waged.

He cannot use the names and titles of Gothmog or Ecthellion properly, but Gondolin and Balrogs he would be free to bring in.

In Reply To
There's no way they can show the Fall of Gondolin. PJ does not have the rights to that story. At most, we might get Thranduil making a few vague comments about Orcrist being forged in Gondolin and the city falling to agents of the Enemy long ago. But I doubt we'll see Ecthelion or Gothmog. They don't appear in the Lord of the Rings appendices or any material that the movies can legally adapt.

The other two rumors I could see happening. We might get some further info or flashbacks about Sauron. And we may see Sauron in some capacity at the Battle of Five Armies, either "physically" present as a shadowy being or as the mastermind behind the orc and goblin army.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell


Jul 18 2013, 10:00am

Post #12 of 19 (230 views)
Shortcut
I'm not so sure.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got a feeling that this rumour could turn out to be true, or at least partially. If indeed we did get this flashback, it would take up no longer than a few minutes of screentime. I very much doubt they would have built a fully fledged set for such a small amount of time however all that would be need would be a few walls and a green screen and there you have the Fall of Gondolin, CGI heavy. I really would not put it past PJ and Co as it seems they have the rights to use some of the details.

What I'm doubting at the moment is where about it would fit in. I would think it unlikely that Thranduil would go through the entire fall of gondolin talking to Thorin about his sword. What I feel is more likely is that, Thranduil will give Thorin a short talk about Orcrist when he his first captured and then this would be a nice setup to it being the Prolouge of TABA. Providing Smaug doesn't die at the end of DOS, it would give him a little more backstory (similar to Gollum's intro in ROTK) and give a good backstory before he dies at the beginning of TABA.

To be honest, this rumour may not even be true and there has other talk of a possible Sauron backstory as a prolouge to film three. We'll just have to see!


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 18 2013, 2:30pm

Post #13 of 19 (182 views)
Shortcut
Would a flashback to Gondolin serve to move the story forward? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think so. It seems to me that it would be a luxury that doesn't contribute meaningfully to the film(s).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell


Jul 18 2013, 4:05pm

Post #14 of 19 (171 views)
Shortcut
I understand what your saying but... [In reply to] Can't Post

Couldn't you also claim that the prologue of ROTK, "did not move the story along"? Yet it provided a clear backstory to one of the most important characters in the 3rd film. I agree that if this was simply placed into the film during Thranduils narration of Orcrist then yes, it would fail to add anything to the story/move the plot along. However, if it was the introduction of TABA (providing Smaug isn't killed in DOS) then it would once again provide an origin for the primary antagonist of this trilogy....


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 18 2013, 4:09pm

Post #15 of 19 (171 views)
Shortcut
I can confirm that the "rumour" is just a rumour. / [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no Gondolin. And it certainly wouldn't have been revealed the way it was.

Smile

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 18 2013, 4:41pm

Post #16 of 19 (177 views)
Shortcut
As lovely as Gondolin sounds, I would rather see (much more story relevant) Durin's Bane bringing ruin [In reply to] Can't Post

to Durin and his folk. . . Durin passing his Great Ring to an heir just before going to his death. . . The Ring coming to Thrain, and making him a target of Sauronic aggression.

In Reply To
There is no Gondolin. And it certainly wouldn't have been revealed the way it was.

Smile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


cats16
Valinor

Jul 18 2013, 7:54pm

Post #17 of 19 (133 views)
Shortcut
Fair enough [In reply to] Can't Post

I respect your thoughts about the chances of it happening. But I'm still standing firm with a 'disagree'. Wink

The Sauron flashback seems much more plausible to me (but of course, rumors are always rumors until proven otherwise)Smile


LordGawain
Rivendell

Jul 18 2013, 8:07pm

Post #18 of 19 (148 views)
Shortcut
Little sense [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me it would make very little sense to flesh out the backstory of Smaug, then have him killed in the next scene. After all, a backstory is only useful when somehow relevant for the character in the main story, which it isn't in the third film, simply because all he does is wreck a city and die. If they do show Gondolin and connect it to Smaug somehow, which I doubt, it would fit better as the prologue of the second film, leaving them room to connect the flashback to the present in the scenes where smaug actually talks.

And having a huge scene like the fall of gondolin right in front of the destruction of laketown, would make laketown much less grand in comparison. PJ wouldn't diminish such a crucial scene in favour of a mostly irrelevant flashback.

It would make much more sense to have a sauron flashback, since he's the main villain of the third movie, it seems.


(This post was edited by LordGawain on Jul 18 2013, 8:09pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 19 2013, 3:49am

Post #19 of 19 (123 views)
Shortcut
I am inclined to trust in DanielB. That said, if they DID do a Gondolin scene, I doubt it would be long enough to diminish [In reply to] Can't Post

Dale. I doubt it would last much longer than the grim scenes shown in Galadriel's mirror, or the flash of the free lands falling under Sauron before the Alliance Battle. IF it were to happen, probably little more than Thranduil talking, mentioning events, and a fleeting glimpse of the beings involved with an incredible but not long featured backdrop.

In Reply To
It seems to me it would make very little sense to flesh out the backstory of Smaug, then have him killed in the next scene. After all, a backstory is only useful when somehow relevant for the character in the main story, which it isn't in the third film, simply because all he does is wreck a city and die. If they do show Gondolin and connect it to Smaug somehow, which I doubt, it would fit better as the prologue of the second film, leaving them room to connect the flashback to the present in the scenes where smaug actually talks.

And having a huge scene like the fall of gondolin right in front of the destruction of laketown, would make laketown much less grand in comparison. PJ wouldn't diminish such a crucial scene in favour of a mostly irrelevant flashback.

It would make much more sense to have a sauron flashback, since he's the main villain of the third movie, it seems.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.