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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Premise of The Hobbit.

Dwarvenfury
Lorien

Jul 13 2013, 8:22pm

Post #1 of 5 (1185 views)
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Premise of The Hobbit. Can't Post

I was thinking of the films' premise for the journey to Erebor as primarily
an attempt at reclaiming the homeland as opposed to reclaiming lost treasure.
I think the treasure is an impetus for the journey. It's not merely the reclamation of lost
empty halls that they seek Erebor. Rather, it is the hordes of treasure residing in those said
halls and the Mountain's enduring capacity for generating wealth that begs their return. Otherwise, why the
struggle to retake Erebor from the dragon? Neither does it seem to be a matter of mere pride for them.
It's the capacity to self-righteous wealth that ultimately matters, imo.

Does the premise of the films obscure the reasoning behind their zeal for the mountain? I think possibly the films skirt
the issue of treasure, other than to point to it as a putative invitiation to Smaug and destruction. This may be
the message interpreted of The Hobbit, but are the films supposed to absorb this interpretation into the presentation of the story
to an audience? Instead of the story concerned with giving a narration, the receivers with interpretations of said story are in turn
presenting the story to another set of receivers in the audience. That is, the audience gets mere interpretation of revelation rather than
revelation in which to 'interpret.' Hence, what is to be felt, how to interpret it, what to focus on is given rather than narration more toward
the 'as is' end on the story-telling continuum.

I mention this because I was curious of the headlines appearing in the trailers for these movies and have been curious
as to the approach of marketing and thus framing of the films' story. I immediately thought of the prologue narration and the speeches
of Gandalf in Rivendell and Bilbo's two speeches toward the end. In your opinions, are these speeches and headlines potentially despatching
the life out of this story? Thoughts?

Also, the characters and the presentment could be accurate, but i'm not sure whether it's absolutely important to agree with characters or presentation per se, but
seems important that one might believe the characters and story. THoughts?


(This post was edited by Dwarvenfury on Jul 13 2013, 8:26pm)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jul 14 2013, 2:23am

Post #2 of 5 (323 views)
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Different motives [In reply to] Can't Post

You make a good point. I believe the movie is presenting Smaug as having seized Erebor for the treasure, the space itself being incidental. But to the Dwarves, Erebor is their homeland, and they want to recover that, with the treasure being secondary (except for the Arkenstone, which is of immense value to Thorin).

Tolkien's Dwarves were actually a good deal more venal than this, especially Thorin. Thorin is getting the Boromir treatment IMO (i.e., a noble, sympathetic character with a weakness).








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jul 14 2013, 2:24am)


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

Jul 14 2013, 3:06am

Post #3 of 5 (274 views)
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I was musing [In reply to] Can't Post

that the 'homeland' might be for some reason a euphemism for 'treasure.'
I don't know whether this is the case in these films, but one could argue
that if treasure and the resumption of its enterprise were more explicitly
at the forefront of their stated ambitions, rather than vague notions of homeland,
then maybe some of the speeches in the first film would've been unnecessary.
That is, treasure-hunting needs no explanation LOL
whereas, I wonder if the film felt it needed to explain or constantly reinforce or remind
the significance of this particular endeavor. For instance, Gandalf tries to conjure up
an explanation for aiding the dwarves and volunteering Bilbo. Bilbo explains to Thorin
why he came back and then explains he's not a hero and such. Then again, many
like these speeches, so it can be a good that the 'homeland' is the main pretext, for the
very reasons of providing these expositions.
I mean I hope the dwarves aided by bilbo will recapture their treasures! what is not to be
admired in this endeavor to take it back from a treacherous fireworm? Even Elrond in FotR
mentions that the Dwarves care nothing but for their riches... it's not like these Erebor dwarves
have to mitigate their treasure lust for care of their reputations to other middle-earth creatures LOL


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 9:49am

Post #4 of 5 (245 views)
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They were especially venal under the influence of Great Rings and Dragon Sickness, [In reply to] Can't Post

but, absent that, Durin's folk were generally good people (some of the other Dwarven houses less so). Above all the cherished their fathers and father figures, especially the kings.

Khazad-Dum was their truest homeland, but reclaiming that was beyond hope whilst The Bane of Durin held it against them. Vengeance (almost as improbable and impractical against a great dragon as against a great Maiar Demon, save for great luck and fortune) certainly drove Thorin. That is stated in the appendices. He wanted the gold, but I don't think that reclaiming his home was a small matter to him, even with the gold aside.

There was virtually no hope for gold in Moria, and a certainty of great loss of life, but the Dwarves went to war on all the orcs of The Misty mountains in grievance over the murder and maiming of Thror. And after Thrain still wanted to reclaim Moria. It was a non-starter. Dain had glimpsed The Balrog waiting for more of Durin's heirs just beyond the gate, and knew that entering was a fool's errand, but the desire remained, and that was not merely a desire for treasure.

In Reply To
You make a good point. I believe the movie is presenting Smaug as having seized Erebor for the treasure, the space itself being incidental. But to the Dwarves, Erebor is their homeland, and they want to recover that, with the treasure being secondary (except for the Arkenstone, which is of immense value to Thorin).

Tolkien's Dwarves were actually a good deal more venal than this, especially Thorin. Thorin is getting the Boromir treatment IMO (i.e., a noble, sympathetic character with a weakness).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jul 14 2013, 9:52am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 3:32pm

Post #5 of 5 (203 views)
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Wonderfully stated AinurOlorin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but, absent that, Durin's folk were generally good people (some of the other Dwarven houses less so). Above all the cherished their fathers and father figures, especially the kings.

Khazad-Dum was their truest homeland, but reclaiming that was beyond hope whilst The Bane of Durin held it against them. Vengeance (almost as improbable and impractical against a great dragon as against a great Maiar Demon, save for great luck and fortune) certainly drove Thorin. That is stated in the appendices. He wanted the gold, but I don't think that reclaiming his home was a small matter to him, even with the gold aside.

There was virtually no hope for gold in Moria, and a certainty of great loss of life, but the Dwarves went to war on all the orcs of The Misty mountains in grievance over the murder and maiming of Thror. And after Thrain still wanted to reclaim Moria. It was a non-starter. Dain had glimpsed The Balrog waiting for more of Durin's heirs just beyond the gate, and knew that entering was a fool's errand, but the desire remained, and that was not merely a desire for treasure.

In Reply To
You make a good point. I believe the movie is presenting Smaug as having seized Erebor for the treasure, the space itself being incidental. But to the Dwarves, Erebor is their homeland, and they want to recover that, with the treasure being secondary (except for the Arkenstone, which is of immense value to Thorin).

Tolkien's Dwarves were actually a good deal more venal than this, especially Thorin. Thorin is getting the Boromir treatment IMO (i.e., a noble, sympathetic character with a weakness).





Indeed there is the possession of gold, and treasure (mitigated by Rings, absolutely) - but the Dwarven connection to their ancient halls, where their fathers lay until they were awoken, cannot be underestimated. As you say, to take on the enemies that they did assigns the critical importance to the Dwarves of driving their foes from their dwelling and reclaiming them. I don't think any Dwarf except Gimli felt happy anywhere else but where they 'belonged.'

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.






 
 

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