Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Prophesy and Premonition

Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 2:59pm


Views: 502
Shortcut
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Prophesy and Premonition Can't Post

This chapter is fraught with prophecy and tragedy. It is the tale of Turin, the Tale of Grief, but it involves the entire family of Hurin: the house of Hurin pays the blood price for the sheltering of the Star in Gondolin, as Hurin, a Man of pride, will not betray Turgon and the Hidden Kingdom. A part of Men not only in the bloodline, but in the ability of Earandil to survive and to sail West for the salvation of Arda. It is Morgoth's fear of Turgon, with a Vala's foresight of what the Hidden Kingdom may potentially mean, leads Morgoth to torture Hurin by watching the drama of the curse of Morgoth play out. Much of Turin's tale is based in part upon the ancient Finnish epic of the Kalevala, which JRRT was quite entranced by in 1912-13:
"The germ of my attempt to write legends of my own to fit my private languages was the tragic tale of the hapless Kullervo in the Finnish Kalevala. It remains a major matter in the legends of the First Age (which I hope to publish as The Silmarillion."

¯ J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 257

A good place to start, as there is much of it to be discussed:

PROPHESY AND PREMONITION:

**In Turin's life, we will read of two lost sisters: though one is lost early and one is lost later. But consider their names; the death of Laughter (Lalaith) is followed by the birth of Mourning (Nienor). Morgoth has a distant hand in both of their deaths. Are the names and the order of naming a foresight? Or is Nienor born to Mourning because of her sisters untimely loss and Hurin's capture?

**Melian prophesies about Anglachel to Beleg: "It will not love the hand it serves. Neither will it abide with you long." Beleg the Elf still chooses to take this blade. But is her prophesy fully correct? Indeed it does not abide with Beleg long - but we read that after Beleg's death the sword apparently mourns him. Consider this excerpt from Kalevala:

Desperate and self destructive Kullervo returns home and attacks Untamo and slays him. After the killing he talks to his sword, and says that it has bled a lot of innocent blood, and tells it that now the sword can bleed some guilty blood as well. The sword replies:
Thus his trusty sword makes answer,
Well divining his intentions:
"Why should I not drink thy life-blood,
Blood of guilty Kullerwoinen,
Since I feast upon the worthy,
Drink the life-blood of the righteous?"

After the sword replies, Kullervo thrusts himself to the blade and dies.

So what can we say about Melian's prophecy? Does this blade, made from other-world metal and imbued with the spirit of Eol its maker, simply chafe at ownership and resent any master, though it loves war and loves slaying the forces of Morgoth? Is it only capable of caring for one's whose blood it has already tasted? Is it something to do with Beleg himself? Or like Kullervo's blade does it seek to equalize innocence and guilt with its appetite? Before it takes Turin's life, it says "Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, so that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."

**As they head for Amon Rudh with Mim, Turin's men see 'blood' (the growing seregon) on the crown of Amon Rudh. While at Amon Rudh Turin's eye drawn to Amon Obel over and over - we read that he knew not why. If these things are foresight, do we think that Turin as an Edain simply does not perceive them for what they are? Yet Turin seems to be sensitive to the signs: is it his nature as a human not to understand them, or is it Turin himself, either in hubris, in grief or inner distraction and turmoil, that cannot divine the meanings?

**Gwindor makes two prophesies to Turin: when he reveals Turin's name to Finduilas: "The doom lies in yourself, not in your name." And then when he lies dying, beseeching Turin in the old-style Biblical language, to save Finduilas: "She alone stands between thee and thy doom." Additionally Glaurung has a bit of inside information: his mandate in the misdirection of Turin comes from Morgoth ("the errand of his master"), and thus he guides Turin towards his doom by convincing him to seek his mother and sister instead of the Elfmaiden, whose screams ring in his ears. Is this all an example of the higher vision and comprehension of the Firstborn and a Vala, and how it all tells against the hapless, clueless Edain?

**Is there premonition in Niniel's refusal of Turambar's proposal? We have already read of pure, uncorrupted love in the immediate connection of Beren and Luthien. Do we have its moral opposite here, deep yet sadly corrupted love, unknowingly impure at its base, in the hesitation of Niniel?

**Ninel, conceiving Turambar's child, becomes sad and wan, not happy or joyous, though her husband has her heart. Is it a statement here about the impurity of the child and their love itself that makes her wan and unhappy? And is there foresight here - almost yet not quite stronger than Glaurung's amnesia spell? A premonition? Do we think that the child Niniel carries, because of its incestuous paternity, is assurance that death is her only option in the tale? Perhaps she could have survived the grief and shock of the incestuous love itself, but does this child define the impossibility of her continued existence?






Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.






Subject User Time
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Prophesy and Premonition Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 14 2013, 2:59pm
    Great start - you'll be "Hurin" from me when I've read the chapter! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 14 2013, 5:04pm
        Indeed, "Morwen" you get back Furincurunir! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 15 2013, 12:12am
    Of Turin and warnings CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 15 2013, 1:31pm
        Points in response ... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 16 2013, 1:25am
    On the topic of the curse. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 15 2013, 2:53pm
        Excellent point Rembrethil! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 15 2013, 7:05pm
            Much thanks! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 15 2013, 9:20pm
                Well CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 15 2013, 9:51pm
                    An Invitation graciuosly accepted. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 15 2013, 10:07pm
                        Happy to have you around Rembrethil! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 15 2013, 10:41pm
        Superb commentary, Rembreth. Thanks. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 15 2013, 7:18pm
        I agree... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 15 2013, 10:07pm
            Húrin treats his doom like it's an opponent noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 16 2013, 5:49pm
                Darn, I meant "Turin", not "Hurin"! Sorry! / noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 16 2013, 6:18pm
                    If I'm "Hurin" you correctly, you need to start "Thorin" out your frozen "T" on the keyboard...// Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 16 2013, 9:44pm
                        Are we dragon out the puns again? // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 16 2013, 9:54pm
                            Aman to that...done it once, Anduin it again // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 12:09am
                        Thanks for Beren with my stupid typo… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 6:32am
                            Anyway, everything is Hunky-Dori now.... // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 1:41pm
            Yes, One does wonder how much Morgoth actually has to do… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 16 2013, 9:26pm
                Starting to feel like that's true Furincurunir... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 16 2013, 9:43pm
                    Well, seems a one-off to me CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 17 2013, 10:45am
                        .."how adapted this story was from another source" noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 12:23pm
                            I am assuming elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 17 2013, 1:21pm
                                Correct Elaen Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:33pm
                            See upthread CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 17 2013, 3:24pm
                        Who is messing with Turin Goatsinger? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 12:46pm
                            "Song of Goats" ???? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:35pm
                                Yep, "goat song" is etymologically sound. But I'd have thought… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 8:24pm
                                    Hmmm. Might hear a lot of thumping, fainting type sounds. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 18 2013, 3:38am
                            Excellent points here Furincurunir Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:49pm
                                Anglachel, the psychopath with a heart of meteoric iron telain Send a private message to telain Jul 18 2013, 6:51pm
                                    .Sword talk... TORn Amateur Symposium Send a private message to TORn Amateur Symposium Jul 19 2013, 1:32am
                                    Best profile of Anglachel I've read!!!! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 1:47am
                                    Creepy swords CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 20 2013, 6:56pm
                                        It does cut two ways... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 21 2013, 2:22am
                                            Also, ferrophobia? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 21 2013, 5:03pm
                                                Interesting to be "thinking like a sword" in the context of NoWiz's metaphor...// ;-) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 21 2013, 8:25pm
                                                    +Snert!+ elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jul 21 2013, 9:15pm
                                    Interesting information found in Bruinen's History of the Hobbit Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 25 2013, 3:06am
                        Dragons and curses Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:29pm
                            A thought on the motivations of Dragons Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 17 2013, 6:14pm
                                Oooo - well done!!!! You read my mind Rembrethil! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 6:21pm
                                It's a good question! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 9:06pm
                                    My personal thoughts on Dragons Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 17 2013, 9:58pm
                                        Can't wait to post it BTW!!! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 18 2013, 4:02am
                                        interesting! telain Send a private message to telain Jul 18 2013, 6:21pm
                                            An explanation Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 18 2013, 6:47pm
    Nienor's intuition and suicide CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 17 2013, 10:53am
        Niniel's Leap Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 5:52pm
            What if... telain Send a private message to telain Jul 18 2013, 7:06pm
                Well we know you are fun when you post tired...! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 1:55am
                "I told you, man: fight, trust and be full of hope!" Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jul 19 2013, 4:33pm
                    Love your inversion point here Darkstone Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 5:55pm
        Seems to be a pattern. Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jul 19 2013, 4:41pm
    Finduilas: "She alone stands between thee and thy doom." noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jul 17 2013, 12:13pm
        Finduilas Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 17 2013, 6:18pm
    I didn't know which post to reply to. Werde Spinner Send a private message to Werde Spinner Jul 17 2013, 11:41pm
        Glad to see you Werde Spinner! Addressing all your great points... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 18 2013, 4:01am
    Well, if i suddenly can post, I might as well have a go at it... sador Send a private message to sador Jul 18 2013, 8:20pm
        Glad to see you Sador! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 2:40am
        Comments on names/words in Tolkien. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jul 19 2013, 5:20pm
    This entire thread - and all of the postings - quite impressive ltnjmy Send a private message to ltnjmy Jul 18 2013, 9:21pm
        *waving* Hi! Nice to see you! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jul 19 2013, 2:44am

 
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.