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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion discussion schedule chapter 20 Nirnaeth Arnoediad part two

Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Jul 12 2013, 11:21pm

Post #1 of 20 (256 views)
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Silmarillion discussion schedule chapter 20 Nirnaeth Arnoediad part two Can't Post

The greatest battle of the age!

Or at the least the most tragic. At the start there is a nasty incident involving the execution of Gelmir. Quite a bloody one, really! I never like reading that bit. Still, it has the desired effect and the army of Fingon attacks in force, lead by Gelmir's brother, Gwindor. They charge so hard that they come to the gates of Angband but are there trapped. That reminds me a little of Feanor's orignal tactics just to charge and get at Angband. The narrator is very scathing of Feanor's efforts but here says that Morgoth's plans, 'nearly went awry,' or possibly as Gwindor was a bit hot at the death of his brother he was forgiven.

Morgoth lets loose his main force from many holes and the battle begins in earnest. The host of Fingon retreats over the sands until he is met by his brother, Turgon were they have a meeting were they are 'glad,' amidst all the battle. Nice to have a little human touch amongst all of the bloodshed. Though by now they might have been regretting following Feanor out of Valinor. Or were they? They might have thought that at least they had a go against Morgoth.

Fingon is re-inforced finally by Maedhros and the sons of Feanor. Now it is the turn of the hosts of Angband to waver and some are turning to flight. The narrative says that some say that even then the host of Fingon might have won the day. Maybe, but even so it would have been a greater effort to have taken Angband with Morgoth inside! especially as earlier it is said that the war against Morgoth was in vain. Perhaps there would just have been another siege, but Morgoth would have regained his strength.

Anyway, Morgoth losses his last strength and Angband is emptied with Wolves, Wolf-riders, dragons and Balrogs. But did the Balrogs fly? Actually, did the dragons? They were not of the winged variety but perhaps they could hop a bit on their own turf. Or possibly Morgoth was dependent upon bats or crows for his ariel force. Still, this is a considerable force. Remember that in Lotr Gandalf says that even one Balrog is invincible to mortal weapons one can only speculate as how powerful a few in an army would be!

The new men are found to be treacherous. Well, we were warned about this at the start of the chapter with the idea that Morgoth sent his spies and agents to deceive people in Maedhras's union. Maglor slays Ulfast, but as we later read, this doesn't do those that live under the Easterlings much good. The sons of Feanor retreat away from the battle. Hmmmm, their oath says nothing about them acting like cowardly custards when it suits, does it?

The Dwarves get an honourable mention. But for them, Glaurung and his brood would have withered the Noldor away. But they have good armour and masks that withstand the Dragons flames. Azaghal, lord of Belegost, wounds Glaurung, forcing the Dragon to flee though it costs the Dwarf-lord his own life. I wonder if Azaghal was an ancestor of Durin? Perhaps we should have heard a bit more about this heroic Dwarf. But unfortunately with his death, the Dwarves depart. Unlike the men as we will hear about in a moment.

The rest of the battle is a rout. Fingon meets his death at the hands of two Balrogs. Poor chap, he doesn't remain king of the Noldor for very long! Turgon is persuaded by Hurin and Huor to retreat. Huor says that from him, Morgoth's doom will come. Pay attention to that one for later, people! But as he retreats, the men of Dor-lomin cover their tracks with their own lives. Huor is slain by an arrow a bit like King Harold at Hastings in 1066. The rest make a shield wall and defend themselves to the last man, literally. Now I can think of two cases this reminds me off, one in Tolkien that nearly happened and one famous Saxon case were this happened which Tolkien as an Anglo-Saxon scholar would clearly have known about. Last of all to survive is Hurin who is taken alive.

Next thread, the aftermarth!


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 13 2013, 4:45pm

Post #2 of 20 (153 views)
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I like the bit about the dwarves… [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't recall much else about them turning up to fight as opposed to make weapons (have I been inattentive?) volunteers for the cause or mercenaries, do you think?

Once their leader has died, they leave the field as if in a funeral procession. Which seems a bit odd by modern standards. But I was thinking that maybe it's not so odd by dark age or medieval standards - was your loyalty to you leader & once he's down the battle's no longer interesting?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 13 2013, 5:21pm

Post #3 of 20 (153 views)
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Azaghal's loss [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't recall much else about them turning up to fight as opposed to make weapons (have I been inattentive?) volunteers for the cause or mercenaries, do you think?

Once their leader has died, they leave the field as if in a funeral procession. Which seems a bit odd by modern standards. But I was thinking that maybe it's not so odd by dark age or medieval standards - was your loyalty to you leader & once he's down the battle's no longer interesting?




I think the Dwarves taking the field shows some of their 'otherness'. They fight differently - witness the circling method they use against Glaurung - and they arm themselves differently. Their armor is effective but described as "hideous to look upon" which is so opposite of an Elven sensibility. This seems a bit of mixed treatment, perception wise, as the Dwarves are heroic and gain renown, yet also leave the field based not on the needs of the whole but of their own cultural practices. Still maintaining the Elf-centric perspective the reasons are not made clear.

I think they are there to fight, Furincurunir, because evil is their enemy: no WAY a paid mercenary is going up against a Dragon! And when Azaghal falls, the ceremony with which they leave the field has some deep significance that we and the Elves don't know. I don't know enough about the Dwarf family trees, but I like Hamfast's idea that perhaps Azaghal is in the line of Durin perhaps, and his loss therefore, because of his import, prompts this response from the Dwarves. Perhaps for the Rebirth there is something that must be done, and that is why they must leave. In any case I have always found it a compelling picture, and I love this view into the Dwarven soul.

I see your point there, about the almost Feudal nature of leaving once one's Lord has fallen - the Dwarves do seem to have that medieval, stoic, yet very ritualistic air about them don't they?

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 13 2013, 5:40pm

Post #4 of 20 (144 views)
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Gelmir [In reply to] Can't Post

Reading about Gelmir is always the worst part, I think. It's so brutal! I especially feel bad for him, but also for Gwindor who has to see it happen. That's just awful. I can't imagine seeing my brother butchered like that.

I really like seeing Gwindor here since he comes back into play later, and it gives us a great glimpse into his "past" for when we meet him again.

Fingon has one of the best described deaths, IMO.


Quote
Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces; and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood.


"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 13 2013, 6:19pm

Post #5 of 20 (136 views)
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The Battle rages [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Or at the least the most tragic. At the start there is a nasty incident involving the execution of Gelmir. Quite a bloody one, really! I never like reading that bit. Still, it has the desired effect and the army of Fingon attacks in force, lead by Gelmir's brother, Gwindor. They charge so hard that they come to the gates of Angband but are there trapped. That reminds me a little of Feanor's orignal tactics just to charge and get at Angband. The narrator is very scathing of Feanor's efforts but here says that Morgoth's plans, 'nearly went awry,' or possibly as Gwindor was a bit hot at the death of his brother he was forgiven. Poor Gwindor - one can see why he is found later broken and defeated by Turin. Morgoth lets loose his main force from many holes and the battle begins in earnest. The host of Fingon retreats over the sands until he is met by his brother, Turgon were they have a meeting were they are 'glad,' amidst all the battle. Nice to have a little human touch amongst all of the bloodshed. Though by now they might have been regretting following Feanor out of Valinor. Or were they? They might have thought that at least they had a go against Morgoth. I think they are both 'in the moment' here...that passionate and joyful cry from Fingon is so beautiful yet so fey. I think they are completely committed in that moment and thus have no regrets - not like before a battle, or when looking around afterwards.

Fingon is re-inforced finally by Maedhros and the sons of Feanor. Now it is the turn of the hosts of Angband to waver and some are turning to flight. The narrative says that some say that even then the host of Fingon might have won the day. Maybe, but even so it would have been a greater effort to have taken Angband with Morgoth inside! especially as earlier it is said that the war against Morgoth was in vain. Perhaps there would just have been another siege, but Morgoth would have regained his strength. Absolutely I think Hamfast, that's what would have happened. While Angband stands they cannot rout him.

Anyway, Morgoth losses his last strength and Angband is emptied with Wolves, Wolf-riders, dragons and Balrogs. But did the Balrogs fly? Actually, did the dragons? They were not of the winged variety but perhaps they could hop a bit on their own turf. Or possibly Morgoth was dependent upon bats or crows for his ariel force. Still, this is a considerable force. Remember that in Lotr Gandalf says that even one Balrog is invincible to mortal weapons one can only speculate as how powerful a few in an army would be! Agreed - especially to the Edain forces, a terrifying enemy.

The new men are found to be treacherous. Well, we were warned about this at the start of the chapter with the idea that Morgoth sent his spies and agents to deceive people in Maedhras's union. Maglor slays Ulfast, but as we later read, this doesn't do those that live under the Easterlings much good. The sons of Feanor retreat away from the battle. Hmmmm, their oath says nothing about them acting like cowardly custards when it suits, does it? Yeah watch out for those U-men. Nothing good comes of your name starting in U apparently, sorry to any Unwins out there. I think with the F-troop the breaking of all they had built up and maintained, feeling like they 'belonged', was too much of a blow, which is why they scatter.

The rest of the battle is a rout. Fingon meets his death at the hands of two Balrogs. Poor chap, he doesn't remain king of the Noldor for very long! Turgon is persuaded by Hurin and Huor to retreat. Huor says that from him, Morgoth's doom will come. Pay attention to that one for later, people! But as he retreats, the men of Dor-lomin cover their tracks with their own lives. Huor is slain by an arrow a bit like King Harold at Hastings in 1066. The rest make a shield wall and defend themselves to the last man, literally. Now I can think of two cases this reminds me off, one in Tolkien that nearly happened and one famous Saxon case were this happened which Tolkien as an Anglo-Saxon scholar would clearly have known about. Last of all to survive is Hurin who is taken alive. I like your 1066 parallel, and the shield-wall too. I think its a case where JRRT wanted to underline the idea that these were distant histories, and that as such there will those haunting similarities to our own known history. Poor Fingon - what an end! Its a contrast to the banners of his father blowing in the breeze of the first sunrise, isn't it?

Thanks Hamfast!!!!! Smile


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 13 2013, 6:25pm

Post #6 of 20 (138 views)
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Gwindor and Fingon [In reply to] Can't Post


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Reading about Gelmir is always the worst part, I think. It's so brutal! I especially feel bad for him, but also for Gwindor who has to see it happen. That's just awful. I can't imagine seeing my brother butchered like that.

I really like seeing Gwindor here since he comes back into play later, and it gives us a great glimpse into his "past" for when we meet him again.

Fingon has one of the best described deaths, IMO.

Quote
Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces; and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood.





Agreed Ardamire - he describes both of these violent events so well, just enough of a glimpse without it being actually gory. Like that reference to Hama in LOTR - hewing his body after he was dead, and the heads being shot into Minas Tirith.

Fingon's death such a stark contrast - like I said to Hamfast - to his father's waving banners in the first Sunrise. A very visual metaphor for the fate of those Noldor who came so triumphantly and hopefully back to Arda.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 12:50am

Post #7 of 20 (137 views)
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Huor's insight [In reply to] Can't Post

in telling Turgon "I say this with the eyes of death...from you and from me a new star will arise!"

A gift of Prophecy? I looked around and not sure if there is another reason.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 14 2013, 4:25pm

Post #8 of 20 (117 views)
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Also, the dragon fight gives "hot dwarves" a different meaning [In reply to] Can't Post

...of late here, they have been under-appreciated for their flame-resistance Wink

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 4:28pm

Post #9 of 20 (112 views)
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You are quite right as usual!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Also, the dragon fight gives "hot dwarves" a different meaning......of late here, they have been under-appreciated for their flame-resistance Wink




I am generally far too busy appreciating them for other things. SlyEvil

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 14 2013, 4:39pm

Post #10 of 20 (112 views)
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The good guys, always outnumbered... [In reply to] Can't Post

The good guys, as usual, are badly outnumbered. I suppose that is an almost ubiquitous story device, as we kinda suspect the author is on the side of the good guys, & large numbers of enemies rack up the peril.

The exception - but one which may prove the rule, is crime stories (I think - don't read/watch a huge number). The police drag net is out, but we know that the fugitive won't be captured by the average plod. It will require the brilliant but inconventional hero detective, even though he's just been ordered off this case, or made to hand in his badge. Officer Plod may, at best, be cruelly gunned down, giving our hero a vital clue.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 14 2013, 5:30pm

Post #11 of 20 (101 views)
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Hmm, it's so hot that there's a lot of melting chocolate around here!!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 14 2013, 5:38pm

Post #12 of 20 (105 views)
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Wonderful [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right. It's enough to evoke a stunning image, but not too much to induce vomiting.

That's a wonderful contrast that I'd never thought of before. I'd like to think it's the same banner in both cases. It flutters under the light of the newly risen Sun and ends in tatters in a pool of blood. An excellent visual connection.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 14 2013, 5:59pm

Post #13 of 20 (98 views)
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Such a beautiful passage [In reply to] Can't Post

I love that line from Huor. It's absolutely brilliant. I do wonder who gave him this vision. I can't imagine it was Ulmo, as he tries later to get Turgon to abandon Gondolin. I think if he knew the salvation of elves and men came through Earendil, he'd probably not have sent Tuor to Gondolin. And I doubt it was any of the other Valar. Perhaps it was Eru himself who granted this prophesy. That would fit with Tolkien's Christian background of God being the inspiration of prophesy (and one that I quite like and agree with).

Another wonderful such "prophesy" comes from Tuor when the exiles are fleeing from Gondolin.

Quote
Then said Tuor: "Lo! there is Eärendel my son; behold, his face shineth as a star in the waste..."


"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 7:28pm

Post #14 of 20 (91 views)
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One of the best things for chocolate to do! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hmm, it's so hot that there's a lot of melting chocolate around here!




That's why it goes so well with Thorin.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 7:52pm

Post #15 of 20 (89 views)
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So much prophesy about Earandil [In reply to] Can't Post


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I love that line from Huor. It's absolutely brilliant. I do wonder who gave him this vision. I can't imagine it was Ulmo, as he tries later to get Turgon to abandon Gondolin. I think if he knew the salvation of elves and men came through Earendil, he'd probably not have sent Tuor to Gondolin. And I doubt it was any of the other Valar. Perhaps it was Eru himself who granted this prophesy. That would fit with Tolkien's Christian background of God being the inspiration of prophesy (and one that I quite like and agree with).

Another wonderful such "prophesy" comes from Tuor when the exiles are fleeing from Gondolin.

Quote
Then said Tuor: "Lo! there is Eärendel my son; behold, his face shineth as a star in the waste..."





I am torn between Ulmo or Eru...my own pet theory is that the whole reason Ulmo gave Turgon and Finrod the dreams about the two strongholds was to keep safe the dream of Earandil: Gondolin to safely bear and raise Idril, and have her meet Tuor, and Nargothrond to keep Finrod at ready for his momentous task of saving Beren in the dungeon of Sauron.

So if Ulmo was seeing that far ahead, maybe it *is* from him...the later abandonment of Gondolin, and his statement about 'loving too dearly..." I think show the temporary nature of the Refuge of Gondolin. He saw the falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin before they were even built, and I think in Ulmo's plan they both only had to stand as long as needed to fulfill their purposes.

Or maybe it was important enough for Eru to intervene...as you say that fits with the inspiration idea. Either way I think there is divinity here, at some level.

I love that line too, the vision of him as the Star. Angelic (Can't wait for your chapter BTW!)

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 14 2013, 10:10pm

Post #16 of 20 (75 views)
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Great connection on the banners. Sad too. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 14 2013, 10:30pm

Post #17 of 20 (82 views)
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The all-or-nothing battle [In reply to] Can't Post

They charge so hard that they come to the gates of Angband but are there trapped. That reminds me a little of Feanor's orignal tactics just to charge and get at Angband.
I always think the same thing.

The host of Fingon retreats over the sands until he is met by his brother, Turgon were they have a meeting were they are 'glad,' amidst all the battle. Nice to have a little human touch amongst all of the bloodshed.
The battle starts out personal with Gwindor avenging his brother, then it moves back and forth between masses of troops doing things and the personal perspective. I wonder a bit why Turgon took so long to go to Fingon's rescue. Couldn't he "see with Elven sight" how beleaguered his brother's army was?

The narrative says that some say that even then the host of Fingon might have won the day. Maybe, but even so it would have been a greater effort to have taken Angband with Morgoth inside!
The long struggle against Morgoth seems doomed for a couple reasons: the numbers are against them since Elves and Men don't reproduce as fast as Orcs, and Morgoth replenishes his ranks quickly after each defeat. The other problem is that Morgoth keeps inventing new weapons like rivers of fire and dragons (give him more time, and the dragons will fly). The Elves don't make any new technological advances that will help them in war. It would be satisfying in a way for this battle to have been won by the Elves, but there's still the sense that their defeat is inevitable. Which is depressing, considering how hard they tried, how brave they were, etc.

The sons of Feanor retreat away from the battle. Hmmmm, their oath says nothing about them acting like cowardly custards when it suits, does it?
I always think the same thing. True, you can't recover a Silmaril if you're dead, and that's what the Oath is about, but still, didn't they swear to do everything possible to get them back? Running away doesn't qualify.

I wonder if Azaghal was an ancestor of Durin?
I believe all the 7 Fathers of Dwarves were born at roughly the same time, so Durin would have lived before this. I think it's written elsewhere that Khazad-Dum was built by Durin in the First Age and had its numbers swelled by Dwarves fleeing the destruction of Beleriand (can't remember where), so Khazad-Dum, Belegost, and Nogrod would be contemporaries.

Fingon meets his death at the hands of two Balrogs.
What is odd is that Fingon's last stand seems an epic struggle that is supposed to end in tragedy, but it leaves me numb. Other than rescuing Maedhros from Angband, do we ever get a personal glimpse of Fingon? He's a character that I have no feel for other than that he was brave and noble and conscientious, which was true of others too. I wouldn't say I'm indifferent that I'm died, just that he's so faint as a character I can't identify with the epic finale.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 11:46pm

Post #18 of 20 (69 views)
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It is sad - [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Great connection on the banners. Sad too




symbol of beauty and shining hope really, those banners.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 17 2013, 11:22am

Post #19 of 20 (58 views)
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Huor's prophecy [In reply to] Can't Post

I would lean toward Ulmo as the source also since he was the grand architect of both Nargothrond and Gondolin and intended both of them to be non-permanent refuges to preserve what he could of the Noldor until help could come from Valinor. He certainly issued warnings to both of them to evacuate, and had originally told them to not fall in love with them but rather trust to succor from West and Sea. For those reasons, I think he inspired Huor to foresee his grandson.

But there are reasons to suspect Eru. Aragorn's grandparents had foresight about his father's short life and the epic role Aragorn was destined to play. Within The Sil, Feanor had foresight upon his death that Morgoth couldn't be beaten--that certainly couldn't be traced to Ulmo. I think Eru plays a hand here and there. With Earendil? Just don't know. Somehow, especially since Earendil was forever associated with the Sea, I get the feeling that Ulmo was his "creator." That, and I think he sent Tuor to Gondolin to be the father of Earendil the Savior who could petition the Valar on behalf of Elves and Edain,


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 17 2013, 11:35am

Post #20 of 20 (73 views)
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Earandil and the Sea [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I would lean toward Ulmo as the source also since he was the grand architect of both Nargothrond and Gondolin and intended both of them to be non-permanent refuges to preserve what he could of the Noldor until help could come from Valinor. He certainly issued warnings to both of them to evacuate, and had originally told them to not fall in love with them but rather trust to succor from West and Sea. For those reasons, I think he inspired Huor to foresee his grandson.

But there are reasons to suspect Eru. Aragorn's grandparents had foresight about his father's short life and the epic role Aragorn was destined to play. Within The Sil, Feanor had foresight upon his death that Morgoth couldn't be beaten--that certainly couldn't be traced to Ulmo. I think Eru plays a hand here and there. With Earendil? Just don't know. Somehow, especially since Earendil was forever associated with the Sea, I get the feeling that Ulmo was his "creator." That, and I think he sent Tuor to Gondolin to be the father of Earendil the Savior who could petition the Valar on behalf of Elves and Edain,




Love your point there - Earandil is forever associated with the sea, was always a restless sailor (and that sailor archetype is very important to JRRT)...I do see Ulmo as the grand conductor - so I am inclined that way too, maybe a bit more than Eru directly. It seems like this whole segment of Middle Earth history was Ulmo's pet project, and how he chose to live and be involved with Arda.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.






 
 

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