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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The barrels scene: dwarves not hidden???
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frodolives
Lorien

Jul 10 2013, 7:12pm

Post #1 of 50 (1788 views)
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The barrels scene: dwarves not hidden??? Can't Post

In the DOS trailer, the dwarves are clearly not hidden within the barrels (the lids are off). This can only mean that their escape has been altered by Jackson & co. Any ideas of why this would be the case?


Ardamr
Valinor


Jul 10 2013, 7:14pm

Post #2 of 50 (1141 views)
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More action [In reply to] Can't Post

In the trailer, the elves are chasing them and shooting at them, and there seems to be a pretty big action sequence/fight between them. Apparently the escape in the book was not good enough.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undmiel




frodolives
Lorien

Jul 10 2013, 7:20pm

Post #3 of 50 (1163 views)
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What bothers me... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is that in the book they escape in barrels because it is the only way Bilbo can think of to get them out in secret. If the lids aren't on, what is the purpose of using the barrels? Why the bloody heck does PJ have to change things that were perfect to begin with (the trolls scene, Bilbo accidentally answering the 'time' question in the riddle game, etc). There are times when I think he honestly doesn't understand what makes the book so damn good.


Ardamr
Valinor


Jul 10 2013, 7:30pm

Post #4 of 50 (1103 views)
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I do agree [In reply to] Can't Post

The purpose of the barrel escape was because they were going secretly. Also, it really shows Bilbo's usefulness and cleverness. Of course, he might still do those things, but he'll be eclipsed by the ACTION! sequence that immediately follows.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undmiel




arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jul 10 2013, 7:41pm

Post #5 of 50 (1075 views)
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It may well be... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that in the movie, Bilbo will select the barrels as the means of escape for precisely the reasons you suggest. The lack of lids could arise from a change whereby they are discovered (through no lack of planning and cleverness on Bilbo's part) while still packing themselves away in the barrels.

IN addition to action, I think the reason for the change is that this way the audience gets to see the Dwarves (rather than a bunch of barrels and an invisible Bilbo) on screen.


TheSexyBeard
Lorien


Jul 10 2013, 9:39pm

Post #6 of 50 (956 views)
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Two reasons I can think of [In reply to] Can't Post

1. PJ might have felt seeing barrels going down stream on their own might have been boring. Sure he could have cut to reaction shots of the dwarves inside but the audience would know they're looking at empty barrels for the most part. Having open barrels allows the audience to see the dwarves and could potentially create a greater sense of danger.

2. It's going to be expanded into more of an action scene than it was in the book, elves are going to chase them, Azog hunters are going to show up. Thorin swings an orc blade in the trailer from his barrel, and Bombur rolls through a group of orcs, so it looks set to be a bit of a skirmish.

Yes, my username is terrible.


Rostron2
Gondor


Jul 10 2013, 9:41pm

Post #7 of 50 (922 views)
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It may also be [In reply to] Can't Post

That he planned to put the lids on and hide them, but the elves were on the scent too quickly, and he has to hurry them out of the caverns somehow, like -- releasing the ropes that hold the barrels and they all tumble away quickly. We haven't seen the whole scene or the lead up to it, so I'll reserve judgement. Bilbo was still able to get them out of the cells to the barrels, that's pretty clever.

I guess the elves won't chase people past their borders, and they don't have any jurisdiction in Laketown.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jul 10 2013, 9:46pm

Post #8 of 50 (964 views)
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Bothers me too, but it's all about spectacle this time round... [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ has actually been quite up front about it. Check out this interview from Comic-Con last year, which I hadn't seen before. At around 1:56 the interviewer asks PJ a pointed question about the importance of the story and script first and foremost despite the emphasis on new technology and getting people back into the cinema.

http://youtu.be/1JFw7PZ4RXY


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 10 2013, 9:55pm

Post #9 of 50 (929 views)
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Hmmmm? [In reply to] Can't Post

I watched that interview, and took quite a different message from it. He repeatedly says that it is the script and story that determines whether it is a good film. While he does talk about the importance of making it a cinematic experience to get young people to come to theaters, I don't see how you can watch that and come away with the impression that he was saying that it was all about spectacle.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jul 10 2013, 10:11pm

Post #10 of 50 (889 views)
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Okay, perhaps I should have said "more about the experience, including spectacle" [In reply to] Can't Post

...rather than "all".

He agrees with the interviewers premise, saying the story and script will always determine if your film is good or not, and the story/script is the foundation, but in his view today's audience want more than just a good story - spectacle, and an immersive, visceral experience are just as important.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jul 10 2013, 10:13pm)


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 10 2013, 10:15pm

Post #11 of 50 (867 views)
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That sounds about right [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know if he is correct or not, but I don't mind the spectacle, so long as there is a good story being told, and despite some (:cough Azog :cough:) missteps, I think there largely is, and I continue to look forward to seeing where they go with it.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 10 2013, 10:17pm

Post #12 of 50 (877 views)
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I still think story comes first with Peter [In reply to] Can't Post

it doesn't appear so if Peter first says that the story is the foundation, then contradicts himself to say the spectacle is equivalent. He says a movie also needs to have spectacle, but story and characters come first. That doesn't make sense to say the spectacle is first with Peter.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jul 10 2013, 10:21pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 10 2013, 10:48pm

Post #13 of 50 (881 views)
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I dont get it... [In reply to] Can't Post

how is it that those dangerous rapids and waterfalls serve as a commercial transportation route between the elves and the men?

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 10 2013, 11:01pm

Post #14 of 50 (841 views)
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Lots of rivers are rapids at times [In reply to] Can't Post

and then calm down to become reliable transportation methods. The dwarves and Bilbo can't afford to be picky about the status of the river in trying to escape from the elves, but the river might be just find at other times.

Of course, a river that is moving swiftly adds to the tension of the escape, but that doesn't say anything about the reliability of the river as a means of regular transportation.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 10 2013, 11:05pm

Post #15 of 50 (869 views)
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When Bomby read the Book ages ago...It seems [In reply to] Can't Post

Half of the Company would have suffocated?

In particular Bombur, they were in them
for along time, and many would
have died.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 10 2013, 11:40pm

Post #16 of 50 (811 views)
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but that doesn't say anything about the reliability of the river as a means of regular transportation. [In reply to] Can't Post

exactly, from what we have, i doubt those barrels would resist the waves, the rocks...

Its definitively for the pumping action...

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Legomir
Rivendell

Jul 11 2013, 12:03am

Post #17 of 50 (838 views)
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I'm fairly certain the reason for the action is... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Barrels sequence was originally the end of the first film back when it was only two films, so it makes sense that there would be a bit more action. I'm gonna guess that it has something to do with the Necromancer sending out Azog and the other folksy folk to attack the Elves as a sort of first strike kind of deal and Bilbo and the Dwarves are going to escape amidst all of that.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, mainly because if it was shot like it was on the book it would probably be boring to watch, not visually interesting. I think it's just one of those things where the book and the film are different animals.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jul 11 2013, 12:11am

Post #18 of 50 (809 views)
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I'm waiting for the explanation... [In reply to] Can't Post

"We had to cut the Sarn Gebir orc attack out of FOTR, so we thought we'd insert it here, into the barrel escape in The Hobbit."

This would honestly not surprise me if it turned out to be the case, or at least an excuse for it.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 11 2013, 12:25am

Post #19 of 50 (898 views)
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My theory on this... (spoilery speculation) [In reply to] Can't Post

is that they are going to shorten the time of the dwarves' imprisonment. In the book, Bilbo spent many days wandering invisibly around the Elvenking's halls before he found a way to get the dwarves out, and we are never told of anything that is happening there except that Thorin won't talk. Inevitably, even in a 3-hour movie, they are not going to show a lot of scenes of invisible Bilbo wandering. So they will fill it up with some other things - they will show us conflict between Thorin and Thranduil, and establish the plotlines for Legolas and Tauriel, and then Bilbo will come up with his escape idea. The scenario I'm expecting is something like this:

Bilbo sneaks the dwarves out of their cells (hopefully with the help of the drunken guard's keys) and starts packing them (protesting, as in the book) in barrels. But someone (most likely Tauriel) finds them gone from their cells and gives the alarm. Bilbo has just gotten all the dwarves in barrels and is about to put the lids on when he hears the Elves coming and has to release them all in a panic, and hang on himself as best he might. The Elves break into the room just as the barrels go down the chute, and immediately set out after them along the river. Before they are able to retrieve the barrels, I expect they will run into Azog and in the skirmish the barrels will "get away". When the river slows as it nears the Long Lake, the dwarves will get to the bank, where they will meet Bard, who will take them to Laketown.

The main change in this scenario is a quicker response from the Elves, rather than the scene from the books in which some Elves notice that the barrels don't seem empty, but their impatient superior ignores this and tells them to dump them anyway. We didn't get the tra-la-la-lally Elves in Rivendell, and I don't think we'll get much of the drunken, incompetent Mirkwood Elves either. It wouldn't fit with the way they've chosen to portray Elves as superhuman and otherworldly, and it gives them the opportunity to speed up the pacing with an action scene between the slower "conflict dialogue" scenes of Thranduil/Thorin and those we will likely get between Thorin, Bard, and the Master when they reach Laketown.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



(This post was edited by Silverlode on Jul 11 2013, 12:27am)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 11 2013, 12:33am

Post #20 of 50 (826 views)
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An additional thought... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's just occurred to me that they may decide to have invisible Bilbo steal the keys outright from a guard, rather than merely taking them off the belt of a passed-out drunk. It could be used as a step in his character's development as a "burglar". No doubt some will be sorry to lose the drunken Elves, but I think I could tolerate it as long as the scene isn't a rehash of Bilbo trying to steal the troll's knife from AUJ.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 11 2013, 12:54am

Post #21 of 50 (820 views)
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Sounds spot on, Silverlode [In reply to] Can't Post

There are 3 pieces of evidence to corroborate your theory:
  • In the DOS trailer we see Tauriel stop in front of a dungeon cell and peer in-- I believe that is the moment the Dwarves are discovered missing.


  • One of Tauriel's lines is "The cells are empty!" We heard Evangeline Lilly speak this line in Elvish in an interview.


  • Near the end of the latest vlog, we see a glimpse of Tauriel in what looks like Thranduil's private chambers- he is in a robe but she is in full uniform, so that could be the moment she informs him that the Dwarves have escaped. He'll obviously be upset and this would provide the reason for her crew to light out in hot pursuit of the Dwarves.


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 11 2013, 12:58am

Post #22 of 50 (814 views)
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This is the deal [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a film, not a book. Films tell stories visually. If you close the lids on the barrels it's far less interesting to a viewer (read viewer, not reader) because you can't "visually" get inside the barrels at all to see the dwarves faces. PJ made the right move here. The tops have to be off the barrels to make the scene better visually for film. Now whether or not we should have the chase by orcs and elves blah blah yeah that can be argued. I don't think though one can successfully argue filmwise that the barrel lids should be on in terms of film interest.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


angelclaw
Bree

Jul 11 2013, 2:00am

Post #23 of 50 (756 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one instance where I can totally accept the changes because I can see exactly why they're necessary for a film adaptation - I mean it's just absurd to think the average moviegoer would want to watch a bunch of lidded barrels floating down a river for more than ten seconds. I'll go you one further and say the made-up chase sequence, while unnecessary to the story, can be justified because even with the lids off it would still be pretty boring (to the average viewer) to watch them just floating down the river complaining. In fact, this is the one scene I'm looking forward to because of the changes - from the vlogs it's pretty clear that the cast had a barrel of fun (ha, ha) and I think as long as the cuts aren't so fast and crazy that you can't make out what's going on (Goblintown, anyone?) it's going to be really fun to watch.


Escapist
Gondor


Jul 11 2013, 2:05am

Post #24 of 50 (761 views)
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Interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

I would find it more interesting to see the reactions in the Mirkwood dungeons and halls after the dwarves had disappeared.
It would also be interesting to watch river boat elves tossing the barrels around and *almost* catching them but not quite - maybe even let enough light shine in through cracks to show expressions on faces as they are rolled around and sat on and nearly cracked open and exposed - maybe even actually opening a barrel but *whew* that one didn't have a dwarf in it.

But this could be good too. There is more than one way to do it - but for certain, just a bunch of barrels floating down the river would stink.


frodolives
Lorien

Jul 11 2013, 2:24am

Post #25 of 50 (771 views)
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I am a filmmaker... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't think though one can successfully argue filmwise that the barrel lids should be on in terms of film interest.

...and I can easily imagine the scene working wonderfully as in the book. What you hear, but don't see, has been proven time and time again as an effective technique. In fact I think it could be more cinematic. But PJ isn't in that camp; witness the changes he made to the troll scene.


(This post was edited by frodolives on Jul 11 2013, 2:28am)

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