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frodolives
Lorien
Jul 10 2013, 7:12pm
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The barrels scene: dwarves not hidden???
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In the DOS trailer, the dwarves are clearly not hidden within the barrels (the lids are off). This can only mean that their escape has been altered by Jackson & co. Any ideas of why this would be the case?
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jul 10 2013, 7:14pm
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In the trailer, the elves are chasing them and shooting at them, and there seems to be a pretty big action sequence/fight between them. Apparently the escape in the book was not good enough.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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frodolives
Lorien
Jul 10 2013, 7:20pm
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...is that in the book they escape in barrels because it is the only way Bilbo can think of to get them out in secret. If the lids aren't on, what is the purpose of using the barrels? Why the bloody heck does PJ have to change things that were perfect to begin with (the trolls scene, Bilbo accidentally answering the 'time' question in the riddle game, etc). There are times when I think he honestly doesn't understand what makes the book so damn good.
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jul 10 2013, 7:30pm
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The purpose of the barrel escape was because they were going secretly. Also, it really shows Bilbo's usefulness and cleverness. Of course, he might still do those things, but he'll be eclipsed by the ACTION! sequence that immediately follows.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jul 10 2013, 7:41pm
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...that in the movie, Bilbo will select the barrels as the means of escape for precisely the reasons you suggest. The lack of lids could arise from a change whereby they are discovered (through no lack of planning and cleverness on Bilbo's part) while still packing themselves away in the barrels.
IN addition to action, I think the reason for the change is that this way the audience gets to see the Dwarves (rather than a bunch of barrels and an invisible Bilbo) on screen.
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TheSexyBeard
Lorien
Jul 10 2013, 9:39pm
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1. PJ might have felt seeing barrels going down stream on their own might have been boring. Sure he could have cut to reaction shots of the dwarves inside but the audience would know they're looking at empty barrels for the most part. Having open barrels allows the audience to see the dwarves and could potentially create a greater sense of danger.
2. It's going to be expanded into more of an action scene than it was in the book, elves are going to chase them, Azog hunters are going to show up. Thorin swings an orc blade in the trailer from his barrel, and Bombur rolls through a group of orcs, so it looks set to be a bit of a skirmish.
Yes, my username is terrible.
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Rostron2
Gondor
Jul 10 2013, 9:41pm
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That he planned to put the lids on and hide them, but the elves were on the scent too quickly, and he has to hurry them out of the caverns somehow, like -- releasing the ropes that hold the barrels and they all tumble away quickly. We haven't seen the whole scene or the lead up to it, so I'll reserve judgement. Bilbo was still able to get them out of the cells to the barrels, that's pretty clever.
I guess the elves won't chase people past their borders, and they don't have any jurisdiction in Laketown.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jul 10 2013, 9:46pm
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Bothers me too, but it's all about spectacle this time round...
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PJ has actually been quite up front about it. Check out this interview from Comic-Con last year, which I hadn't seen before. At around 1:56 the interviewer asks PJ a pointed question about the importance of the story and script first and foremost despite the emphasis on new technology and getting people back into the cinema.
http://youtu.be/1JFw7PZ4RXY
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jul 10 2013, 9:55pm
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I watched that interview, and took quite a different message from it. He repeatedly says that it is the script and story that determines whether it is a good film. While he does talk about the importance of making it a cinematic experience to get young people to come to theaters, I don't see how you can watch that and come away with the impression that he was saying that it was all about spectacle.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jul 10 2013, 10:11pm
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Okay, perhaps I should have said "more about the experience, including spectacle"
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...rather than "all".
He agrees with the interviewers premise, saying the story and script will always determine if your film is good or not, and the story/script is the foundation, but in his view today's audience want more than just a good story - spectacle, and an immersive, visceral experience are just as important.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jul 10 2013, 10:13pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jul 10 2013, 10:15pm
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I don't know if he is correct or not, but I don't mind the spectacle, so long as there is a good story being told, and despite some (:cough Azog :cough:) missteps, I think there largely is, and I continue to look forward to seeing where they go with it.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 10 2013, 10:17pm
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I still think story comes first with Peter
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it doesn't appear so if Peter first says that the story is the foundation, then contradicts himself to say the spectacle is equivalent. He says a movie also needs to have spectacle, but story and characters come first. That doesn't make sense to say the spectacle is first with Peter.
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jul 10 2013, 10:21pm)
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Lusitano
Tol Eressea
Jul 10 2013, 10:48pm
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how is it that those dangerous rapids and waterfalls serve as a commercial transportation route between the elves and the men?
Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jul 10 2013, 11:01pm
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Lots of rivers are rapids at times
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and then calm down to become reliable transportation methods. The dwarves and Bilbo can't afford to be picky about the status of the river in trying to escape from the elves, but the river might be just find at other times.
Of course, a river that is moving swiftly adds to the tension of the escape, but that doesn't say anything about the reliability of the river as a means of regular transportation.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 10 2013, 11:05pm
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When Bomby read the Book ages ago...It seems
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Half of the Company would have suffocated?
In particular Bombur, they were in them
for along time, and many would
have died.
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Lusitano
Tol Eressea
Jul 10 2013, 11:40pm
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but that doesn't say anything about the reliability of the river as a means of regular transportation.
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exactly, from what we have, i doubt those barrels would resist the waves, the rocks...
Its definitively for the pumping action...
Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!
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Legomir
Rivendell
Jul 11 2013, 12:03am
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I'm fairly certain the reason for the action is...
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The Barrels sequence was originally the end of the first film back when it was only two films, so it makes sense that there would be a bit more action. I'm gonna guess that it has something to do with the Necromancer sending out Azog and the other folksy folk to attack the Elves as a sort of first strike kind of deal and Bilbo and the Dwarves are going to escape amidst all of that.
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, mainly because if it was shot like it was on the book it would probably be boring to watch, not visually interesting. I think it's just one of those things where the book and the film are different animals.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 11 2013, 12:11am
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I'm waiting for the explanation...
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"We had to cut the Sarn Gebir orc attack out of FOTR, so we thought we'd insert it here, into the barrel escape in The Hobbit."
This would honestly not surprise me if it turned out to be the case, or at least an excuse for it.
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Silverlode
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Jul 11 2013, 12:25am
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My theory on this... (spoilery speculation)
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is that they are going to shorten the time of the dwarves' imprisonment. In the book, Bilbo spent many days wandering invisibly around the Elvenking's halls before he found a way to get the dwarves out, and we are never told of anything that is happening there except that Thorin won't talk. Inevitably, even in a 3-hour movie, they are not going to show a lot of scenes of invisible Bilbo wandering. So they will fill it up with some other things - they will show us conflict between Thorin and Thranduil, and establish the plotlines for Legolas and Tauriel, and then Bilbo will come up with his escape idea. The scenario I'm expecting is something like this:
Bilbo sneaks the dwarves out of their cells (hopefully with the help of the drunken guard's keys) and starts packing them (protesting, as in the book) in barrels. But someone (most likely Tauriel) finds them gone from their cells and gives the alarm. Bilbo has just gotten all the dwarves in barrels and is about to put the lids on when he hears the Elves coming and has to release them all in a panic, and hang on himself as best he might. The Elves break into the room just as the barrels go down the chute, and immediately set out after them along the river. Before they are able to retrieve the barrels, I expect they will run into Azog and in the skirmish the barrels will "get away". When the river slows as it nears the Long Lake, the dwarves will get to the bank, where they will meet Bard, who will take them to Laketown.
The main change in this scenario is a quicker response from the Elves, rather than the scene from the books in which some Elves notice that the barrels don't seem empty, but their impatient superior ignores this and tells them to dump them anyway. We didn't get the tra-la-la-lally Elves in Rivendell, and I don't think we'll get much of the drunken, incompetent Mirkwood Elves either. It wouldn't fit with the way they've chosen to portray Elves as superhuman and otherworldly, and it gives them the opportunity to speed up the pacing with an action scene between the slower "conflict dialogue" scenes of Thranduil/Thorin and those we will likely get between Thorin, Bard, and the Master when they reach Laketown.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Jul 11 2013, 12:27am)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Jul 11 2013, 12:33am
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It's just occurred to me that they may decide to have invisible Bilbo steal the keys outright from a guard, rather than merely taking them off the belt of a passed-out drunk. It could be used as a step in his character's development as a "burglar". No doubt some will be sorry to lose the drunken Elves, but I think I could tolerate it as long as the scene isn't a rehash of Bilbo trying to steal the troll's knife from AUJ.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Jul 11 2013, 12:54am
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There are 3 pieces of evidence to corroborate your theory:
- In the DOS trailer we see Tauriel stop in front of a dungeon cell and peer in-- I believe that is the moment the Dwarves are discovered missing.
- One of Tauriel's lines is "The cells are empty!" We heard Evangeline Lilly speak this line in Elvish in an interview.
- Near the end of the latest vlog, we see a glimpse of Tauriel in what looks like Thranduil's private chambers- he is in a robe but she is in full uniform, so that could be the moment she informs him that the Dwarves have escaped. He'll obviously be upset and this would provide the reason for her crew to light out in hot pursuit of the Dwarves.
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Jul 11 2013, 12:58am
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It's a film, not a book. Films tell stories visually. If you close the lids on the barrels it's far less interesting to a viewer (read viewer, not reader) because you can't "visually" get inside the barrels at all to see the dwarves faces. PJ made the right move here. The tops have to be off the barrels to make the scene better visually for film. Now whether or not we should have the chase by orcs and elves blah blah yeah that can be argued. I don't think though one can successfully argue filmwise that the barrel lids should be on in terms of film interest.
Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13
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angelclaw
Bree
Jul 11 2013, 2:00am
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This is one instance where I can totally accept the changes because I can see exactly why they're necessary for a film adaptation - I mean it's just absurd to think the average moviegoer would want to watch a bunch of lidded barrels floating down a river for more than ten seconds. I'll go you one further and say the made-up chase sequence, while unnecessary to the story, can be justified because even with the lids off it would still be pretty boring (to the average viewer) to watch them just floating down the river complaining. In fact, this is the one scene I'm looking forward to because of the changes - from the vlogs it's pretty clear that the cast had a barrel of fun (ha, ha) and I think as long as the cuts aren't so fast and crazy that you can't make out what's going on (Goblintown, anyone?) it's going to be really fun to watch.
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Escapist
Gondor
Jul 11 2013, 2:05am
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I would find it more interesting to see the reactions in the Mirkwood dungeons and halls after the dwarves had disappeared.
It would also be interesting to watch river boat elves tossing the barrels around and *almost* catching them but not quite - maybe even let enough light shine in through cracks to show expressions on faces as they are rolled around and sat on and nearly cracked open and exposed - maybe even actually opening a barrel but *whew* that one didn't have a dwarf in it.
But this could be good too. There is more than one way to do it - but for certain, just a bunch of barrels floating down the river would stink.
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frodolives
Lorien
Jul 11 2013, 2:24am
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I don't think though one can successfully argue filmwise that the barrel lids should be on in terms of film interest. ...and I can easily imagine the scene working wonderfully as in the book. What you hear, but don't see, has been proven time and time again as an effective technique. In fact I think it could be more cinematic. But PJ isn't in that camp; witness the changes he made to the troll scene.
(This post was edited by frodolives on Jul 11 2013, 2:28am)
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