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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
gondolin themes in the hobbit!? SPOILERS MAJOR
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boldog
Rohan


Jul 10 2013, 5:14am

Post #1 of 64 (2446 views)
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gondolin themes in the hobbit!? SPOILERS MAJOR Can't Post

Hey all, I have just learned something quite strange and confidential, from my mates brother! (who Is in New Zealand, as an Elf extra) Now I don't know if it is all true, but my mate said, that he said, that some reference will be made to the fall of gondolin in the upcoming films. Now some of the stuff is quite controvertial so bear with me.
1. Apparently Thorins, sword Orcrist, was wielded by Ecthelion, and was used to slay Gothmog lord of balrogs. Thranduil recognises it and tells him of the history of it. The sword is taken away from thorin after he confronts Thranduil, for he believes that sword is not worthy to be in the hands of a mere Dwarf, knowing the history of it.
To me, that sounds just enough, I could do with that story, though I don't know if Jackson could aqueeze that much out of the appendices. (is gondolins fall mentioned? and gothmog?) but wouldn't Elrond have recognised orcrist for being that sword too?
Now the next one is SO controvertial that I doubt it very much, though it sounds cool.
2. Apparently Smaugs story is told deeper in the next film, and he apparently WAS the steed of Gothmog lord of Balrogs, and was present at the fall of Gondolin. Gothmog rode on him and brought havoc to the ancient city. but when Gothmog died, Smaug saw his freedom, and fled from Gondolin and ventured east, in search for treasures as great as Gondolins. Gondolin had given him the hunger for gold. he comes to withered heath, and stays there in wait, until he discovers the wealth of erebor.
my mates brother apparently was In the shots for the scene, as the story goes.....Now I doubt this very much indeed, but what do you all think? does it sound just enough or is it spitting in tolkiens face? I think its alright, though I cant see how Jackson got the material legally...... Either way, if any of these are true, id sure like to see them via flashback!! imagine seeing Gothmog on screen!!
what do you think? and NO HATE PLEASE !!!!Smile

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jul 10 2013, 5:50am

Post #2 of 64 (1161 views)
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No hate, certainly, but some incredulity. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I usually rain on these bright ideas, but I think this is actually fairly cool! I hope they do it!








Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jul 10 2013, 6:30am

Post #3 of 64 (1111 views)
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So Durin's Bane has been dropped in favour of Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs??? [In reply to] Can't Post

ShockedCrazy


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 10 2013, 6:39am

Post #4 of 64 (1061 views)
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Hmmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

That sounds really interesting but I can't see the whole balrog riding Smaug thing or expanding Orcrist into such a seemingly random scene. Does Smaug even have a backstory written anywhere? I have always thought we would get more Smaug scenes that aren't in the book but this would really turn me off in the theater I think. It would seem incredibly outlandish.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 10 2013, 6:49am

Post #5 of 64 (1118 views)
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That sounds potentially awesome, the ONLY real problem being that Smaug was supposedly young when he [In reply to] Can't Post

came to Erebor. Placing him at Gondolin, even as a young steed to Gothmog, would make him very ancient indeed. Other than that, its not bizzare at all. The Balrogs were said to have ridden dragons to Gondolin in Tolkiens earlier writings, and while the Demons were found to be much more powerful and lofty in their origins when Tolkien delved further and in later writings, that change only meant that there were fewer of them than he thought, and that they were much more potent and more difficult to overcome. . . it wouldn't mean they would no longer be willing to dragon ride.

Do they have the rights to mention Ecthellion and Gothmog?


That said, Durin's Bane remains the MOST important Balrog and one of the most consequential figures to the history of Durin's folk, especially in the Third Age, and I would rather them focus on his relationship to the death of Legendary Durin, the ruin of Moria and the exile that first sent the Dwarves to Erebor, than to some speculative connection between Orcrist and Gothmog.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


boldog
Rohan


Jul 10 2013, 7:32am

Post #6 of 64 (1013 views)
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as i said..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Im not sure if it is true, but after skimming quickly through the appendices of return of the king, I cant find any mention of gothmog, or ecthellion. Maybe Jackson obtained his ideas from another source? either way, it cant be that bad I hope.
the only thing I can definitely say, is that the mates brother, whos name is (Anthony), acted on a set for gondolin... now my mates not a Tolkien person, so I don't think he would have the knowledge to even make up this lie...

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 10 2013, 7:40am

Post #7 of 64 (1011 views)
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If they avoid naming Gothmog or Ecthellion they might be able to do it, since the Fall of Gondolin is mentioned in various places. [In reply to] Can't Post

That would be SOMETHING to see, but I won't hold my breath. Fascinating news all t same.

In Reply To
Im not sure if it is true, but after skimming quickly through the appendices of return of the king, I cant find any mention of gothmog, or ecthellion. Maybe Jackson obtained his ideas from another source? either way, it cant be that bad I hope.
the only thing I can definitely say, is that the mates brother, whos name is (Anthony), acted on a set for gondolin... now my mates not a Tolkien person, so I don't think he would have the knowledge to even make up this lie...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Shagrat
Gondor

Jul 10 2013, 8:15am

Post #8 of 64 (1004 views)
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This would be the flashback to end all flashbacks [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be absolutely incredible to see the fall of Gondolin and Gothmog astride Smaug on screen. I sincerely hope this is true but it all seems too good to be. The thing that makes me doubtful is that I can't really see whey they'd feel the need to give this much backstory, where the likes of Gothmog aren't really relevant to the plot of The Hobbit. I'd just love to see it anyway though. Maybe EE material?


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Jul 10 2013, 8:17am)


boldog
Rohan


Jul 10 2013, 8:36am

Post #9 of 64 (942 views)
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gothmog or durins bane? [In reply to] Can't Post

maybe my mate misinterpreted it, and perhaps the balrog isn't gothmog, but durins bane instead? but clearly he did say that it WAS gothmog..

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 10 2013, 9:32am

Post #10 of 64 (1018 views)
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No, it's not true (unfortunately, or forunately). [In reply to] Can't Post

Mainly for the reason that they haven't built a set for Gondolin.

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




TFP
Rivendell


Jul 10 2013, 9:39am

Post #11 of 64 (921 views)
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mixed bag [In reply to] Can't Post

taken with a pinch of salt obviosly:

(1) i really like the first idea; but

(2) i can't really stomach the second. firstly i very much doubt that smaug would be that old [what could he have been doing for all that time, even accounting for PJ's tendency to play fast & loose with time & geography?] and secondly weren't winged dragons only seen for the first time during the war of wrath?

[edit - but actually i do kind of like the second one anyway, a little bit.]


(This post was edited by TFP on Jul 10 2013, 9:44am)


dave_lf
Gondor

Jul 10 2013, 11:22am

Post #12 of 64 (846 views)
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Pretty skeptical [In reply to] Can't Post

#1 seems plausible enough except for the mention of Gothmog and Ecthelion, but #2 sounds unlikely a priori and since in addition to that MGM doesn't have rights to stories or characters in the Sil, I'm inclined to doubt the whole thing.


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 10 2013, 11:24am

Post #13 of 64 (895 views)
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I really doubt that its true (sorry, a bit of hate...this is supposed to be a film about a hobbit in the third age not first age fan fiction...) [In reply to] Can't Post

Admittedly 1) sounds pretty cool (It would be cool to see Gondolin), but seriously Smaug at the fall of Gondolin? that is in no way canon, and utterly pointless the average cinemagoer will have no idea who or what gothmog or gondolin was, it adds nothing to Bilbo or Thorin's story, clutters up the film with even more needless fan fiction, and surely the place to mention Gondolin would be rivendell? Thranduil or Thingol never visted Gondolin as far as I can remember...

Who knows given how they have apparently given Glorfindel's (the hero of Gondolin's fall, who fought Gothmog I think) famous prphecy to Tauriel anything's possible...Mad

Why does Jackson have this obession with jettisoning stated facts and replacing them with overblown fan fiction?

I know this will in all likelyhood be a false rumour, but I am starting to get the feeling he feels like he's doing Tolkien a favour by 'finishing' the rewrite on The Hobbit's backstory.

As far as I can remember Gothmog and Gondolin (well there history at least) was not mentioned at all in LOTR, and not in the 'APPENDICES!!!', but since P Boyens hasn't read The Silmarillion in 25 years (and is supposedly the expert out of the three of them) it could genuinely be that she thinks it was canon. In anycase this would probably overstep the rights PJ and co have to use the material (The mention of the 'Blue Wizards' already did), and there is no way in hell the Tolkien estate would be pleased with this.


Random, sinister thought...perhaps this is some sort of ulterior plan to give Christopher Tolkien a heart attack so they can nick the rights to the books...wouldn't put it past Warner Bros...Wink


This reminds me of the rumour that Turin will be mentioned in DOS with a quick shot or two of artwork of him slaying Glaurung-again cool to see, but unliekly to happen, certainl not necessary and fan fiction.

Can't wait to see what Lusitano and Sinister71 think of this...Wink

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 10 2013, 11:44am

Post #14 of 64 (898 views)
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I just found this old thread on tolkeinforums-apparently Smaug could have been in the fall of gondolin [In reply to] Can't Post

http://tolkienforums.activeboard.com/...in-the-war-of-wrath/

Its open to debate, but whether that gives PJ and co free rein to introduce plot elemnts from the silmarillion out of sync with the pucblished book is also open to debate...

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 10 2013, 11:49am

Post #15 of 64 (864 views)
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Reminds me of an inside joke I share with my brother (who is also a Tolkien fan) [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
perhaps this is some sort of ulterior plan to give Christopher Tolkien a heart attack so they can nick the rights to the books



We've speculated (jokingly of course) that every time PJ makes a drastic change to the story, he calls CT up and rubs in it his face - "Hey Christopher, guess what we've done to the story now? AHAHAHA!!!"


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 10 2013, 12:04pm

Post #16 of 64 (822 views)
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Don't Give Him ideas! [In reply to] Can't Post

But what do we know? I'm sure all this tuff with Smaug was buried in those 125 pages pf extensive hobbit notes in the APPENDICES!

I kinda hope its the other way round-Christopher doing prank calls on PJ 'What's that... no oscar nominations? *Lovely Bones*'

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.


BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell


Jul 10 2013, 12:38pm

Post #17 of 64 (824 views)
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Well guys.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we now know our Prologue for There and Back Again... (If it's true of course)

I this did turn out to be true then if Smaug was to die in TABA, then it would be the perfect prologue to aquaint with him for his eventual demise...


(This post was edited by BornOutOfTheWest on Jul 10 2013, 12:46pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 10 2013, 12:42pm

Post #18 of 64 (798 views)
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Ahhhhhhh [In reply to] Can't Post

Fire! Thieves! Murderers!!

Wink

I predicted they would tell us Smaug's troubled youth, here we go. Drinks with Gothmog in the morning, slaughter at Gondolin in the afternoon.

Seriously, i could foresee all sorts of problems with rights or canonicity...

I certainly prefer the focus of any backstory to be focued on the dwarves : durins bane, erebor, thrain, moria...not Gothmog...

I find this story unlikely...like daniel says...no sets were built...

More of a jest between people who know others will take it to the bank and anylize it to the smallest detail Tongue

But this wouldnt be APPENDICES!!!! material, would it? Its Silmarillion right? CTolkien's imaginary homeland, doubt he would be pleased with something like this...

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 10 2013, 12:57pm

Post #19 of 64 (784 views)
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I think its a bit of a stretch to say the appendices stuff was in the appendices anyway, so I wouldn't put it past PJ and co to do something like this [In reply to] Can't Post

(Azog the zombie, radagast, young bilbo, the main in the moon song, bolg the torturer of dol goldor-hmm don't remember that in the appendices).

If this rumour is true, its not really like their infringing copyright-all they are doing is taking names mentioned in passing in LOTR and giving them a new backstory-it would be a massive kick in the teeth to C Tolkien and his father, and many readers of the sil (to be honest I woldn't be surprised if PJ has never read it) but it would give more depth to the film and explain twhy Smaug is the only dragon in the franchise (and it could be a sneaky ploy by PJ to switch blame 'Oh don't blame me for changing things, we din't have the rights to the other material so we had to invent A long winded backstory for smaug, because I needed the padding for three films').

I don't think its says anywhere how Old smaug was, then it again it dosen't say anywhere that he was at the fall of gondolin-you can say the same thing about Radagast-it dosen't say he didn't have a pet hedgehog, and Dain-it dosen't say he didn't ride an armoured boar into battle...

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 10 2013, 1:13pm

Post #20 of 64 (744 views)
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Sure [In reply to] Can't Post

but do we really need Smaugs backstory?

I would prefer him to appear just in events from the hobbit.

And if hes shown being ridden by a demon, wont non tolkien reading audiences feel hes not that great of an agent of evil? Wouldnt such a scenario undermine Smaug?

Much in a similar way as having Sauron mind controllinghim or making him his puppet would...

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 10 2013, 1:32pm

Post #21 of 64 (730 views)
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Don't get me wrong, I'm against the idea [In reply to] Can't Post

Explaining evrything sucks the mystrey out of the film and leaves nothing for new readers to discover.

But at this point its pretty clear PJ is using the hobbit as an excuse to tell the story he wanted to read, not the one Tolkien wrote.

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Jul 10 2013, 2:09pm

Post #22 of 64 (735 views)
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Hey be fair Christopher [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit received 3 Oscar nominations...even if it didn't win any of them.

@Samlacis81 That is hilarious! Laugh

"I don't mean to be blunt but I felt I had to speak my mind, I'm sorry." - Bilbo Baggins.
"Apology accepted." - Balin.


"You don't really suppose do you that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck? Just for your sole benefit?"
"There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought." - Gandalf the Grey, from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Jul 10 2013, 2:10pm

Post #23 of 64 (698 views)
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Cool! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"I don't mean to be blunt but I felt I had to speak my mind, I'm sorry." - Bilbo Baggins.
"Apology accepted." - Balin.


"You don't really suppose do you that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck? Just for your sole benefit?"
"There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought." - Gandalf the Grey, from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 10 2013, 2:43pm

Post #24 of 64 (671 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

sometimes some things are better left untold or unseen.

Smaug is one of those things. The greatest calamity of our age does not need any backstory. ;)

It is pretty obvious...

I just wish he would keep those desires for other projects, such as halo, or the damnbusters remake, a sequel to bad taste etc...

Now...a Peter Weir directed TV series adaptation of the silmarillion...now that , i would love to see!!

Or even just the children of hurin as a motion picture Wink

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 10 2013, 2:59pm

Post #25 of 64 (681 views)
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I don't want to see any more of Tolkien's work adapted [In reply to] Can't Post

Purely because almost all of it was unfinshed or edited togther by his son-I don't want to see some Hollywood director 'fixing and finishing' the story when Tolkien would likely be against the film anyway.

Ironically PJ is also planning a film about the Gallipoli landings in WW1, albeit on much larger scale than Peter Weir did in 1981

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

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