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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Number one ridiculous problem with AUJ to me
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Elenorflower
Gondor


Jul 9 2013, 10:46am

Post #151 of 198 (589 views)
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I wanted to see the Stone Giants [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always thought that part of the story was very atmospheric, I imagine them all wet, miserable and afraid, watching these enormous Beings in the storm, part of the storm, elemental beings of nature, but wih Tolkiens sense of fun, its pure Tolkien to take such a strange and dangerous nature spirit and give it a sense of playfulness. Unlike the film, I always imagine them from a Distance, they are never just about to crush the Dwarves into mush, the thrills were, 'oh what if they see us, what if they come this way! its the thrill of seeing a Tiger in a zoo (apart from the fact I hate seeing Tigers in zoos) its safely in the distance, but yet the fear is real. The rock em sock em robbed them of their mystery. it turned them into empty spectacle.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 9 2013, 11:52am

Post #152 of 198 (586 views)
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Two Sides To Each Coin [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome to regular contributing, s-g, I look forward to hearing your opinions. I have some disagreements with the general view you seem to have concerning the tone of the message boards, so I'd like to raise what I think is an important issue. First, the points about personal, "ad hominem" attacks cut both ways. It is wrong to call someone a "hater", but it is equally wrong to turn around and call someone "delusional" or "in denial" or a liar. Doing so is the classic "pot calling the kettle black" trick. Some posters are generally positive, some are generally negative, and that is OK because we are supposed to be expressing opinions. A short while ago, however, I started to become concerned about some of the negative posting, because the authors referred to their views as facts, not opinions (and yes, they said so in so many words; they did not just forget to write "IMO"). I personally believe that a Discussion Board should discuss issues more than just praise or criticize, and that is why I try to make most of the things I write "analytical" rather than positive or negative. At the moment I'm finishing a set of articles for the Symposium, on "The Physics of The Hobbit", an analysis of events that happen in The Hobbit films. This has been a truly enjoyable experience, and I've already gotten great feedback from those who have seen an early draft of the first part. And in that analysis I've tried my best to be as unbiased as possible; one of my favorite scenes from the LOTR movies, for example, admittedly breaks the laws of physics. However, in the four times when I've used this expertise at mathematical physics on the discussion boards, I've been the subject of fairly vicious personal attacks on three occasions. One such post was immediately struck off by the mods, another drew a pretty sharp warning, and in the third instance the poster said that I was incompetent at what I did and needed to look for a new job; when I replied with a simple explanation of the physics, the poster actually threw a temper tantrum. None of those authors, of course, knew anything about physics. That didn't prevent them from saying that I was "in denial" or "trying to defend Peter Jackson" (something I have zero interest in doing). People may go overboard in defending their positive views, but exactly the same can happen with those who wish to defend their negative views.

So as the mod above said, if you believe that one set of personal attacks is being less noticed than others, you can contact them via Feedback. I think they will give you a fair listen.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 9 2013, 12:56pm

Post #153 of 198 (568 views)
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It is a pity [In reply to] Can't Post

but i always took the wizard fight at orthanc as an example of a "magical" sorcery duel that didnt stray too fat from the realms of believability and reality. That fight of the minds is more interesting i think, than hogwart's colourfull spaghetti wizardry fights.

TH could still have that deep sense of historical past, while retaining the necessary fantastical elements and a fairytale quality...

Personally i dont think jackson gives this matter much thought, between historical realism and ungrounded no rules fantasy, i just think his unrestrained possibilities and much greter comfort and freedom to do as he pleases, unleashes the real OTT Bad Taste jackson , which is fond of overlong action, OTT scenes and moments ...just because it will be really cool.

Vous commencez ŕ m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 9 2013, 12:58pm

Post #154 of 198 (555 views)
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accurate [In reply to] Can't Post

fanboyism described at its best. Just replace console with anything else.

Wink

Vous commencez ŕ m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 9 2013, 1:00pm

Post #155 of 198 (560 views)
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I couldnt have said it better myself [In reply to] Can't Post

excellent post.Smile

Vous commencez ŕ m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 9 2013, 1:46pm

Post #156 of 198 (574 views)
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There is some element of the concept of 'fantasy' that you seemingly fail to understand [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
what is "believable" about a ghost army defeating flesh and blood? flying wraiths flying around on huge black beasts that are neither living nor dead? giant waves which resemble horses? Oh yeah those are so believable and the list can go on...AUJ is no more believable than LOTR's. You don't like AUJ fine, your entitled to your opinion, than don't go see DOS or TABA....But you will! i guess Peter Jackson will have the last laugh at your expense. Wink



If you rob heroic fantasy of any element of the fantastic then all you are left with is historical fiction. I'll try to take your post point-by-point:

1. what is "believable" about a ghost army defeating flesh and blood?

In the real world there wouldn't be a ghost army at all. Tolkien only had the Oathbreakers aid the Grey Company in taking over the ships of the Corsairs; the Dead did not continue with them to Minas Tirith. And if ghosts are unreal then who makes the rules about whether they can combat flesh-and-blood warriors?

2. flying wraiths flying around on huge black beasts that are neither living nor dead?

I am unaware of any source that states that the flying fell beasts of the Ringwraiths are undead creatures. Twisted by Sauron, yes, but they are still alive. Tolkien suggests that the beasts may be holdovers from an earlier age. The fell beasts, while large, seem to fall within the upper limits of a creature that can be still capable of flight (I cite the giant pterosaur Quetzalcoatlus as an example).

3. giant waves which resemble horses?

A magical effect created by Gandalf, not a natural phenomenon.

None of the above are over-the-top in the mythical setting of Middle-earth. The "Rock-em, Sock-em" Stone-giants of Peter Jackson's An Unexpected Journey only barely resemble the Stone-giants as Tolkien wrote about them.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elessar
Valinor


Jul 9 2013, 3:38pm

Post #157 of 198 (550 views)
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Clarity [In reply to] Can't Post

I try to be those things and with my response I will try to make my previous post a little more clear.

I'm sorry you feel that way but I have to disagree with you. There are plenty of posts that are not positive about The Hobbit and I'm sure The Lord of the Rings that are left for people to talk about. As long as the post can stay civil, about the movie, non-snarky, non-condescending, etc. then I never see any of the mods remove them or tell people you can't say that. The same goes for any positive posts as long as they don't take shots at people who didn't they tend to get left and if either side has an issue the Mods always say report the post and they will look into it. Any post is handled as I just said with the utmost care as long as the person can stay civil about their personal feelings and remember its only THEIR personal feelings. You do see posters on both sides sadly act as if their opinion is fact rather than opinion.

They do. Also, if you see something the mods have said time and time again report things. They will take care of them and it will help make the board a nicer place to post. I will say the road works both ways and posts calling people who enjoyed the movies fanboys doesn't help (you can see a couple posts within this thread), posters who add smilies (to be sarcastic/snarky) thinking that changes the tone of a post, or just saying whatever comes to mind. The thing is to be civil. There are plenty of posters ignore or take less seriously for the reasons I stated in this paragraph. There is no point in allowing them to suck the fun out of the discussion or movie. So I choose to chat with people who feel the same way I do or people who can voice their displeasures in an engaging way. AinurOlorin is one of the best at posting his positive and negative thoughts in a very engaging way. Everyone IMO should strive for that level of discussion.

Well, I'd say maybe in other sections they don't have to but I will say here I see them far more often than one should see them. As I said if we strived for a better discussion they'd almost never have to do anything. If a person gets scolded for a post its all about the words they choose to use when making their post. You can go on and on about how Jackson is terrible, The Hobbit is awful, etc if you can just be civil and use the wide ranging vocabulary that I'm sure many of us have. Then those posts should have been reported and let the mods take care of it. I can tell you as a mod on another site that you can't always see everything and I miss things because I didn't see them or they were not reported.

Of course we're going to post things that hopefully get fans excited about the movies and Tolkien in general. We're a fan site and that by nature is what fans site do is try to push the positives. However, there are posts and comments made by TORn staffers when we don't like things we see be it in the trailer breakdowns, generic articles, or movie reviews. Stopping any uprising is a good thing to be honest. We don't want "fanboys" or "haters" causing such an issue that it pushes a great majority of members away from the site. As far as pushing the merchandise I don't see an issue with that. I write the collecting column here at TORn and I love doing it. The reason we wanted to start doing this was to let fans know of all the great collectibles they could get and expand or create a Middle-earth collection. Many of these things are items I have, which is why you see reviews of things like the latest statue from Sideshow, Weta, bust from Gentle Giant, or Azog figure from The Bridge Direct. I understand people aren't always into these things everyones cup of tea but they are for a lot of people I can assure you. Its fun to share about these things with my fellow Tolkien fans or geeks these very cool things. So talking about them on the FP is about sharing a love of Tolkien and Middle-earth with you all. There is nothing nefarious about it. Trust me I don't know of a single staffer who thinks PJ is always right and never wrong. The movies so far have been great but not perfect.

All I can say is please report things to the mods (I'm not a mod here) if you feel like something has been missed. That's the best way to help out as a single member.

I want to add a couple quotes why I think as a whole so many of us want to focus more on what we like than what we didn't like.


“Being a geek is all about being honest about what you enjoy and not being afraid to demonstrate that affection. It means never having to play it cool about how much you like something. It’s basically a license to proudly emote on a somewhat childish level rather than behave like a supposed adult. Being a geek is extremely liberating.”



“Being a geek is all about your own personal level of enthusiasm, not how your level of enthusiasm measures up to others. If you like something so much that a casual mention of it makes your whole being light up like a halogen lamp, if hearing a stranger fondly mention your favorite book or game is instant grounds for friendship, if you have ever found yourself bouncing out of your chair because something you learned blew your mind so hard that you physically could not contain yourself — you are a geek.”



geordie
Tol Eressea

Jul 9 2013, 5:17pm

Post #158 of 198 (524 views)
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You're not just speaking for yourself - [In reply to] Can't Post

- I agree with you.
.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 9 2013, 6:10pm

Post #159 of 198 (514 views)
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i treat people fine on this forum [In reply to] Can't Post

i debate the subject matter. You however have gone personal by suggesting i am bias so it seems you have become a "infidel" to your own little gospel.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 9 2013, 6:18pm

Post #160 of 198 (502 views)
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wow... [In reply to] Can't Post

ok...so if ghost armies and waves which resemble horses crashing down on-top of 'wraiths' is not "over-the-top" than what possibly is more over-the-top in AUJ?? and just because the stone giants don't resemble Tolkien's stone giants doesn't mean the entire movie is horrible simply because PJ chose not to stick with source material. The average viewer of AUJ who is not into Tolkien's work would see the stone giants as just another "ghost army" or "talking trees" seen in the LOTR's trilogy.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 9 2013, 6:41pm

Post #161 of 198 (528 views)
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Passion [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We try to be even-handed about the application of the TOS. If you think we've missed something, let us know via Feedback and we'll look at it.

To be honest, I wouldn't complain. I would instead allow more robust discussion. Too many people use the TOS as a run-to-mommy-and-daddy to invent offenses they hope will invoke the TOS with the intent to stop disagreeable opinion or citations of specific inconsistencies about the person and what they write. An opinion can be stupid and uninformed without the person being stupid or uninformed. There's no way to learn and improve otherwise.

For example, when I say something insults the intelligence of the audience, the opposition will complain that I have called them stupid and have a mod invoke the TOS on it. This is an invented offense, but I get called on it - end of discussion. Meanwhile, long-time members can use passive aggressive phrases such as "thinking adults would..." but not get called on it. I find the latter case more objectionable than mine.

My complaints would be hypocritical. I want that person to be allowed to say "thinking adults." I only make the point of uneven application of the rules frequently used to end discussions not in the favor of "principal interests." I do not wish to stifle interesting and even heated discussion by artificially ending these discussions. Passion is human and it needs an outlet. This is the outlet for people passionate about Tolkien.


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jul 9 2013, 6:45pm

Post #162 of 198 (498 views)
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I was referring to [In reply to] Can't Post

the dismissal of the Twilight movies. There may be people here that enjoy them and feel that the films are comparable to AUJ. We should try to respect every fandom, because, by nature, any fandom is wrought with zeal and bias. Don't take it as a personal attack, simply a reminder to treat others interests with respect.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 9 2013, 6:48pm

Post #163 of 198 (506 views)
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All's Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
@JWPlatt: Idk, after all that, perhaps I'm not your new hero anymore. Regardless of that, thanks all the same - it was a sincere honor while it lasted. Smile


You're doing fine.

Wink


g-stormcrow
Bree


Jul 9 2013, 11:04pm

Post #164 of 198 (471 views)
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Absolutely! However, . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for the "Welcome", DID.

About "ad hominem" attacks cutting both ways:
You are absolutely right about that and I am well aware of it. Though I have my own opinions, I am careful not to state them as facts unless they actually can be proven as facts.

However, concerning "delusional":
When I used the word "delusion", not "delusional", it was for the purpose of describing any person, or group of people, who deny actual facts, not opinions, due to any one of a variety of reasons. When I say "facts" I mean exactly that - not assumptions based on facts or circumstantial evidence.

When a person says that they thought the stone giants scene was "ridiculous", that is obviously their opinion, not a fact. However, when a poster says that the OP is a "hater" simply because they said they didn't like a particular scene yet liked the movie overall, that is the exact kind of "delusion" I was referring to since they disregarded the fact that the OP said they liked the movie. The OP even responded graciously with something to the effect of 'let's agree to disagree on this' which was rejected again by the poster.

Clarification:
I really don't remember using the words "in denial" in my initial comment but I definitely didn't call anyone a liar. I'm assuming you used those as examples to describe other instances of what you have witnessed here on the boards.

Fair discussion & equal enforcement:
You are free to post a 'Pulling out the "fanboy" card' comment if you believe one is needed. I would have no problem with it - in fact, I would support it since discussions should be fair and respectful of everyone's opinions. One of the biggest things that peeves me off is double-standards & hypocrites. Because of that, I am also willing to admit when I'm wrong if proven so - luckily, my reasoning isn't so clouded with pride that it makes me "in denial". You are also obviously free to disagree with my general view of the "tone" on the message boards. I was simply giving my impression and opinion of what I've been witness to and cannot speak on what I haven't witnessed.

Thanks again for the welcome, for sharing your views & experiences with me and also for the wise advice. I look forward to possibly talking with you again on these boards.

-Best WishesSmile

Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.

"Ill news is an ill guest."


g-stormcrow
Bree


Jul 10 2013, 12:51am

Post #165 of 198 (467 views)
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Further clarification . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the clarification, Elessar.

Though I'm pretty sure the "fanboy" comments in the thread came after the "hater" comments, I do get and appreciate the point you were trying to make.

I do my best at being fair & civil which is why I have no problem with someone telling me when I've went over the line if, indeed, I have. I look forward to being a fair, civil & hopefully engaging contributor on these boards.

From what you've described, I also look forward to reading AinurOlorin's posts and hope I get to have an engaging & meaningful discussion with him, too, regardless of it being a "like" or "dislike". I agree IMO that everyone should strive for exactly that.

I do have to disagree with you about the words chosen are always why a poster gets a "scolding" from TORn, though. I'll agree with perhaps saying something like "most of the time" but not "always". I've witnessed occurrences first-hand that are contrary to exactly that so I will have to respectfully disagree based on my own past experience. (Btw, I'm not trying to be difficult or 'split hairs' on this - I'm just being honest, fair & factual.)

You mentioned, "Of course we're going to post things that hopefully get fans excited about the movies and Tolkien in general."

Ok, this is where I'm tempted to go into the realm of detailed opinions. I will stop most of that here, because it's probably best to be clear and not start being tangental so I will save most of my opinions on that topic for another discussion.

Regarding "uprisings":
I don't think "stopping an uprising" can be automatically considered a "good" or "bad" thing. If an uprising is needed, then it would most likely be a "good" thing. Inversely, if an uprising is not needed, then it would most likely be a "bad" thing. A good example of this is the infamous "Arwen-at-Helms-Deep" uprising scenario. Many considered that fan uprising a "good" thing but I'm sure there are others who believe it was a "bad" thing.

One of the key factors in preventing an uprising with consumers (because, let's face it, we are definitely consumers of this product) is keeping everything honest & fair or at least giving enough of the appearance of being honest & fair. When people believe, based on facts or otherwise, a product is unfair &/or dishonest they become upset. When enough people feel a product is unfair &/or dishonest they may choose to band together & collectively start an "uprising". This is a way for consumers (movie ticket buyers or otherwise) to give their opinions weight and to use their purchasing "power" as leverage against those whom they feel may have misrepresented the product they've purchased or may purchase in the future.

Therefore, "pushing the positives" is not always the way to go in every scenario because the manufacturer's of the product may need to re-focus their efforts, temper them with reason & critical thinking in order to prevent unfairness, dishonesty & misrepresentations as well as any possible consumer uprising.

Regarding "pushing the merchandise":
When a fan site begins "pushing the merchandise", especially a fan site that is a non-profit organization, they really have to be careful not to get involved in any unethical, let alone illegal, "conflict of interest". By "conflict of interest" I mean proliferating misinformation & promoting the misrepresentation of a product for the manufacturer. Now, don't get me wrong - I am not saying that is the case with TORn. I am simply saying that I am getting that impression and that my impression may very well be wrong. I had the impression you were a moderator and I was obviously wrong.

Btw, I have no problem with people "geeking out" on things they think are cool. I consider myself a geek (though a modestly cool one) and am not ashamed to proclaim it. However, part of being a "geek" is also in finding what could've made the whole experience better for you. For example, I have seen on TORn that some of its writers have guessed that, in their opinion, the major problems they've noted in the movies were caused because no one close to PJ could tell him "no". Even though criticism can be mistaken for negativity it can also, when taken seriously for its merits, the difference between a subjective & objective point of view.

Indeed, the "knife" can cut both ways in such instances, as well.

Thanks for the clarifications & advice. I hope to share many more interesting talks with you on these boards in the future.

-Cheers & Best Wishes Smile

Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.

"Ill news is an ill guest."


g-stormcrow
Bree


Jul 10 2013, 12:54am

Post #166 of 198 (464 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad I'm not alone in all of that though I would be happier if my assessments turned out to be totally off-base.

Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.

"Ill news is an ill guest."


g-stormcrow
Bree


Jul 10 2013, 1:10am

Post #167 of 198 (443 views)
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Totally agree . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

on everything you said.

I try not to take offense easily but am also confident in my ability to defend myself adequately with well-based arguments and would only ask for moderation in the event of an extreme case.

All I really wanted to make sure is that if TORn feels the need to step-in and moderate discussions, they should do it fair & equally without any of their personal opinions becoming deciding factors in their actions.

Once I had a similar experience of "invented offense" in Barliman's quite a while back (pretty much had the whole damn room on my case, for chrissakes) and swore never to return to that place where "likes" & "dislikes" are supposedly welcomed.Crazy

Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.

"Ill news is an ill guest."


g-stormcrow
Bree


Jul 10 2013, 1:16am

Post #168 of 198 (453 views)
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Thanks!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's great to know you share many of my opinions and that I'm not alone.

Looking forward to talking with you again about anything interesting, or even semi-interesting, in the near future.

-Thanks Again & Best Wishes

Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.

"Ill news is an ill guest."


g-stormcrow
Bree


Jul 10 2013, 1:23am

Post #169 of 198 (458 views)
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I appreciate it . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

and will do. Smile

Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.

"Ill news is an ill guest."


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 10 2013, 3:24am

Post #170 of 198 (472 views)
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Passions About Tolkien Versus Jackson [In reply to] Can't Post

I got to thinking about being passionate about Tolkien since writing that previous post. I observed in my reflections that very few people say negative things about J.R.R. Tolkien. There may be comments about his estate, but not about the man himself and the books from which this website got its name. In any case, it seems to me that the negative comments about the film treatments of those books are the vast majority of the aggregate of negative comments. In fact, the criticism often tends to say "where Jackson deviates from Tolkien is where his films are at their worst." This universally upholds Tolkien among both the Defenders and Opponents of Jackson. One wishes the production would listen and learn from the refrain.

It suggests to me that while the stated "principal interest" of this website is Tolkien, it is any intolerance from the Defenders of Jackson which give it its internet reputation due to the de facto principal interest of Jackson - not Tolkien. It is known more as a movie site than a Tolkien site due in part to the Jackson production's participation and cooperation here. Of course, Jackson's work is more recent and currently popular, if only at times in a less respectable, more controversial way than Tolkien's. So Jackson and his work are going to get a lot of trendy mention. But the departure from Jackson's own aesthetic in The Lord of the Rings to what we see in The Hobbit doesn't help matters. It has created more negativity from which the "defenses have to hold" and a cycle of heightened rhetoric.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jul 10 2013, 3:30am)


Elessar
Valinor


Jul 10 2013, 5:06am

Post #171 of 198 (454 views)
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A little more from me [In reply to] Can't Post

My pleasure.

They may have but two wrongs don't make a right as my parents told me growing up. Someone has to take the high road or things can and will get ugly. I've seen it in my years on various forums.

I understand trying to be civil. It's something I try to do myself though I admit I fail at times.

He is a class act.

Most of the time then is the word choice we will go with. Though, I will say if its something I believe the mods will take care of one way or the other. All that has to be done is report it.

I don't know what debate is to be had with that comment. This goal may not be achieved with every fan that sees things but that happens with every site and every article posted. That's all I can really say about that comment.

If an uprising is something that deals with real world issues of course it can be a good thing. 99.9% of the time when it comes to message boards unless the board attitude is negative by a far margin uprisings tend to not be a good thing. There is no need for any kind of that to happen here. This is by far one of the friendliest boards I've been on in the 10+ years. So I agree with you that at times people need to ban together and get things done but people doing it just because they don't like a little something here and there isn't a good thing.

Believe me we don't just push the positives. I can assure you that's the case.

I'm slightly offended here to be honest in regards to the merchandise statement. As, I said we talk about it because it relates to the subject and is something that many fans want to know about or we want them to know about. I see no issue with us talking about the various statues, busts, and figures. I can assure you there is a demand for these things from collectors (I have probably near 100 items based on Middle-earth alone). Its one of the things that got me posting on the internet going back to 2003 so its something we have to talk about bottom line. I buy the items you see reviewed on the front page out of my own pocket and we won't say anything about these items that isn't true. I'm not sure why you thoughts there was something shady going on but I can assure you we're honest about these various collectibles.

I agree. Its all about how you say it. If you can be civil about it someones issues with the movies can be taken seriously and generate some seriously great discussion.

That it can.

No problem. I look forward to future discussion and I hope you can understand why the collectibles angle you were coming from kind of hurt a bit.

Cheers

Josh



geordie
Tol Eressea

Jul 10 2013, 6:24am

Post #172 of 198 (429 views)
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I agree - [In reply to] Can't Post

 - sorry, I know it's poor netiqutte to just post an 'I agree' statement - Smile - but I do try and limit my posts to the hobbit movies forum, and to Torn in general.


"It suggests to me that while the stated "principal interest" of this website is Tolkien, it is any intolerance from the Defenders of Jackson which give it its internet reputation due to the de facto principal interest of Jackson - not Tolkien. It is known more as a movie site than a Tolkien site due in part to the Jackson production's participation and cooperation here."

This is what I particularly agree with -though it's not a popular idea in these parts.

.



kbdiggity
Rivendell

Jul 10 2013, 8:15am

Post #173 of 198 (426 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i'm not trying to be offensive to the posters or personally attacking them but to me its getting kinda silly, they are entitled to their opinions but it seems a lot more users in this forum hate AUJ than like it or maybe the ones that liked the film are afraid to reply. The stone giants scene was one of my favorite parts in the film, the sequence was better done in the film than it was in the book, much more epic.



If you had been around on this forum back when the three LoTR movies were coming out, you'd know there are always a group of people who spend all their energy trashing what they are unhappy with. To be honest, this all just reminds me of 10 years ago.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 10 2013, 12:38pm

Post #174 of 198 (397 views)
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Over-the-top elements in Tolkien and the films [In reply to] Can't Post


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ok...so if ghost armies and waves which resemble horses crashing down on-top of 'wraiths' is not "over-the-top" than what possibly is more over-the-top in AUJ?? and just because the stone giants don't resemble Tolkien's stone giants doesn't mean the entire movie is horrible simply because PJ chose not to stick with source material. The average viewer of AUJ who is not into Tolkien's work would see the stone giants as just another "ghost army" or "talking trees" seen in the LOTR's trilogy.



First of all, there is a certain amount of subjectivity involved here. Something that you find over-the-top may be perfectly acceptable to someone else and vice-versa.

The only things in Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings that I found OTT in the context of the mythical setting were: The talking purse (just a bit too silly); and the degree to which Tolkien anthropomorphized Beorn's animal friends (mostly in the dinner scene). I can accept Shelob and the giant spiders of Mirkwood actually speaking Westron because they are really more demon-spiders than true arachnids.

Now, don't put words in my mouth. I never stated that An Unexpected Journey was horrible. There are parts that I liked quite a lot and I hope to like the Extended Edition even more. But, yes, I did find Jackson's gigantic stone robots much more OTT than Tolkien's giants. I detested the fake "death scene" when it looks like half of the company was squashed by one of the Stone-giants as the worst sort of theatrics. And I did not like how Jackson staged the company's flight from Goblin Town or how he structured the fight with Azog's Orcs in the clearing (the burning trees falling like dominoes). Also, there is a big difference between the Stone-giants and the Army of the Dead. Jackson used the Dead as a key plot element, replacing Aragorn's reinforcements from Southern Gondor as the turning point in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields (yes, I liked Tolkien's version better). The Stone-giants were just a random encounter in the Misty Mountains.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Noria
Gondor

Jul 10 2013, 1:08pm

Post #175 of 198 (433 views)
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TORN does have a reputation for being movie and Jackson friendly and (in Thorin's words) what of it? [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO, there’s nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of sites which are more book centric or where the prevailing opinion is less favourable to the movies. I’ve been a member of one of them longer than I’ve been on TORN.

Possibly part of the problem for movie detractors on TORN is that perhaps many more people like the movies than don’t, and when a number of us argue back, it feels to the OP that they are being ganged up upon. The only numbers I have are from two TORN polls. In the most recent, to which 43 people responded (including me), 56% gave AUJ a rating of 8 or more out of 10. In the December 2012 poll, with 104 responses, 76% of responders gave AUJ a grade of 8 or higher. Even in the latest poll, with many fewer responses, the majority opinion is favourable to the movie.

Certainly my biased perception, as a movie "lover", is that the movie "haters" take over many threads and that there is a lot of anger and bitterness about AUJ, and even some near hysteria about DoS.

As beloved as Tolkien's books are to me (and I've read the novels and “Tales” books more times that I can count over five decades), I don’t think they are perfect and there are some things about them I rather dislike. I just let those slide by because of my overall love of these books, just as I let go of the things I don’t like about the movies. The difference is that I have no interest in discussing the books on message boards.


(This post was edited by Noria on Jul 10 2013, 1:11pm)

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