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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion Discussion, Chapter 19: Of Beren and Luthien: Politics makes the world go 'round
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Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 29 2013, 6:24pm

Post #26 of 41 (173 views)
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Nice contrast [In reply to] Can't Post

to all the other high and lofty elves. On first glance, I think that Thingol looks worse because of the comparison to them, but now I think that the comparison serves to show the greater characterization of Thingol and the more shallow characterization of the others.

Also, we 'see' Thingol more than the others, don't we? He's caught up in a number of different episodes throughout the book. It's only natural, I think, that we'd see different sides of him in all these different situations.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 30 2013, 6:11pm

Post #27 of 41 (156 views)
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THAT is very true [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Also, we 'see' Thingol more than the others, don't we? He's caught up in a number of different episodes throughout the book. It's only natural, I think, that we'd see different sides of him in all these different situations.




And unlike some other characters, we see him in crucial scenarios, as well as quiet ones. Makes me wish there were more moments like this for other folks too...especially those intimate, conversation glimpses in which so often JRRT gives us such insights (and some of them unexpected.) [Interested in your take on Thingol's feelings and reactions in CG's latest thread.]

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

Jul 1 2013, 5:18pm

Post #28 of 41 (137 views)
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there's saying and then there's doing [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Thingol would absolutely contemplate he would attack, even say he would attack, but would he actually do it? I don't know...

My gut says he is not an Elf of Action. He prefers words and he prefers sending other people off to do the "doing". So much easier to sit at home and contemplate Melian's Girdle...


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 1 2013, 7:46pm

Post #29 of 41 (133 views)
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It's a shame, really. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Makes me wish there were more moments like this for other folks too...especially those intimate, conversation glimpses in which so often JRRT gives us such insights (and some of them unexpected.)


It's a shame, really, that we don't have more of that. And what's more of a shame is that I believe we would have gotten so much more, especially at the end part of the Silmarillion narrative. "The Wanderings of Hurin" seems to be the beginning of a new, in-depth writing of the whole end of the First Age. I think Christopher said as much in The War of the Jewels. I so wish he'd have finished (or at least gone a lot farther). We'd have gotten so much more of these character interactions, I think.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 2 2013, 4:51pm

Post #30 of 41 (126 views)
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Yes, I'm hungry for more, as usual [In reply to] Can't Post

Fingolfin and Fingon were co-rulers of Hithlum. Did they talk strategy around the dinner table, go hunting and falconing together, drink in pubs, exchange dirty jokes about women, play chess? Did they have a guessing game on where Turgon went, and talk about how much they missed him?

We get a little more with the House of Finarfin. The four brothers are fond of Galadriel and like to visit Thingol so they can see her, and she asks Finrod why he never married, which seems a sisterly thing to do. Later she'll lament that they're dead--at least she mentions them. So we get something.

How about the Sons of Feanor: do they squabble among themselves? That's easy to picture, but never shown. Do the C-bros plot to supplant Maedhros? Also easy to imagine. Are the A-bros absent because they find the other five too harsh and intense? Do all of them sit around talking about how they miss their father? So much missing.

It seems we get more family interactions among Edain than Eldar in this book.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 3 2013, 2:54am

Post #31 of 41 (108 views)
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I reread Wanderings last night Ardamire [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Makes me wish there were more moments like this for other folks too...especially those intimate, conversation glimpses in which so often JRRT gives us such insights (and some of them unexpected.)


It's a shame, really, that we don't have more of that. And what's more of a shame is that I believe we would have gotten so much more, especially at the end part of the Silmarillion narrative. "The Wanderings of Hurin" seems to be the beginning of a new, in-depth writing of the whole end of the First Age. I think Christopher said as much in The War of the Jewels. I so wish he'd have finished (or at least gone a lot farther). We'd have gotten so much more of these character interactions, I think.




And I agree Ardamire, we would get more conversational insight plus it sort of 'finishes out' the curse' and completes the tale - plus that bit about Hurin throwing the chair so reminds me of Turin and the cup. The end of CoH as published IS in itself a poignant epitaph; I wonder if that is why CT left it that way? Because Wanderings really could have been tacked on after that I suppose. Is there any contradiction do you think? I've read commentary that it would not 'fit' with the published Sil, but it seems to be the same sort of pace and detail as CoH.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 3 2013, 5:57pm

Post #32 of 41 (96 views)
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Sons of Feanor [In reply to] Can't Post

There actually a short text in The People's of Middle-earth that tells of the youngest son, Amras, dying during the burning of the ships at Losgar. It's a great little snippet, and I wish it had been included in The Silmarillion as published. I'm away from home for the holiday, otherwise I would quote some of it for you.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 3 2013, 6:07pm

Post #33 of 41 (96 views)
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Wanderings & CoH [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh yes, the ending of CoH is perfect. In fact, I don't even know that the release of Hurin and his meeting with Morwen should have been included in it. The Wanderings really is the beginning of another tale, and I'm glad that Christopher chose not to include it in the CoH. It would be almost like trying to put "The New Shadow" at the end of LOTR. It just wouldn't work, IMO.

As for fitting into The Silmarillion, I do think that Christopher was in a bad spot with it. It's too long as it is, and the narrative style way to different than the more annalized style of the Silmarillion. And like he explains, to try to pare it down would not do justice to the story at all. I think that leaving it out was probably the best solution. And of course, it leaves it as a wonderful little gem to discover later on Smile

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 3 2013, 6:19pm

Post #34 of 41 (90 views)
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I agree here [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Oh yes, the ending of CoH is perfect. In fact, I don't even know that the release of Hurin and his meeting with Morwen should have been included in it. The Wanderings really is the beginning of another tale, and I'm glad that Christopher chose not to include it in the CoH. It would be almost like trying to put "The New Shadow" at the end of LOTR. It just wouldn't work, IMO.

As for fitting into The Silmarillion, I do think that Christopher was in a bad spot with it. It's too long as it is, and the narrative style way to different than the more annalized style of the Silmarillion. And like he explains, to try to pare it down would not do justice to the story at all. I think that leaving it out was probably the best solution. And of course, it leaves it as a wonderful little gem to discover later on Smile




Agree, stylistically it is very different. I like your point about ending LOTR too - never even thought of that but no, it wouldn't work and would dilute the ending too much.

And have to say its a mark of our sort of literary Fellowship, that we love to dig about and unearth little tales and points of interest. Seems to go with the territory!

(I see you are on vaca without books, but I *do* hope you brought your kilt.) SlyWink

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 8 2013, 11:01pm

Post #35 of 41 (73 views)
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My kilt! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sadly, no, I did not take it on vaca with me, and as such, I didn't feel it was right to venture into the RR too much!

My dream would be to someday see a book published that has a completed text for both the Wanderings of Hurin/Ruin of Doriath and The Fall of Gondolin. I think that there's enough material on both of them for Christopher to put them together as longer stories (though not long enough individually to warrant their own separate publishings). It would be a great counterpart to CoH. I'd love to see some drawings and paintings from Alan Lee to go along with it as well. Those were one of the best things about CoH's publication!

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 9 2013, 2:57am

Post #36 of 41 (69 views)
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You brought NO kilt!?! Dear dear.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Sadly, no, I did not take it on vaca with me, and as such, I didn't feel it was right to venture into the RR too much!

My dream would be to someday see a book published that has a completed text for both the Wanderings of Hurin/Ruin of Doriath and The Fall of Gondolin. I think that there's enough material on both of them for Christopher to put them together as longer stories (though not long enough individually to warrant their own separate publishings). It would be a great counterpart to CoH. I'd love to see some drawings and paintings from Alan Lee to go along with it as well. Those were one of the best things about CoH's publication!




I love all that you say above, it would be a fantastic publication. As a HoME scholar, do you think other material from Earandil's tale could be brought in, in similar fashion? If so I would love to see it expanded in the same spirit and illustrations from Alan would be fantastic.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 9 2013, 2:33pm

Post #37 of 41 (57 views)
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Sadly, no. [In reply to] Can't Post

It was quite a mistake, I assure you! I had it newly washed, pressed, and hanging up when I completely forgot to grab it! Tragic, I know...

See, I would have said Earendil's tale, too, but there is precious little material actually written about him. The Necklace of the Dwarves and the Fall of Gondolin are at least both properly written out in full tales in BoLT, so narratives could be constructed using those sources. Earendil, though, was never written - there are just notes. So any narrative about him would have to be almost completely made up, or it would be remarkably shorter than the others. I think there's enough to make a slightly longer tale than what's published in The Silmarillion, but it wouldn't be much I don't think.

Oh, and I'm far from a scholar, but thanks for the compliment Smile

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jul 9 2013, 3:06pm

Post #38 of 41 (52 views)
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small correction... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... i think you meant, "nauglimuffin."


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 9 2013, 3:19pm

Post #39 of 41 (47 views)
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Haha! [In reply to] Can't Post

That actually made me snicker out loud Laugh

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 9 2013, 3:39pm

Post #40 of 41 (59 views)
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What I feared... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It was quite a mistake, I assure you! I had it newly washed, pressed, and hanging up when I completely forgot to grab it! Tragic, I know...

See, I would have said Earendil's tale, too, but there is precious little material actually written about him. The Necklace of the Dwarves and the Fall of Gondolin are at least both properly written out in full tales in BoLT, so narratives could be constructed using those sources. Earendil, though, was never written - there are just notes. So any narrative about him would have to be almost completely made up, or it would be remarkably shorter than the others. I think there's enough to make a slightly longer tale than what's published in The Silmarillion, but it wouldn't be much I don't think.

Oh, and I'm far from a scholar, but thanks for the compliment Smile




Well, you forgetting your kilt...but that's a different story! Tongue

I didn't know of much either, aside from the poem...(and I disagree here: I find you quite the HoME scholar!)... was hoping you knew of some more texts. I would love to have that tale expanded with more conversation, more character development. Would be great to see Earandil and Elwing 'talk', and hear more about the attack by the SoF (from their perspective too, highlighting who said what) and about Elrond and Elros being found in the cave. Its really the crown jewel of the tales to me, even more so than B and L (sorry there CG).

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 10 2013, 3:11am

Post #41 of 41 (84 views)
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There are sadly [In reply to] Can't Post

no other lengthy texts. There's a short snippet (probably only a paragraph or two) in HoME that I plan to share in the Earendil chapter discussion, and there are some tantalizing details in BOLT. But that's about it. None of what you wish for is anywhere to be found as far as I am aware. It really is too bad, because it would have been a fantastic story. As I said before, it's a pity that the wanderings of Hurin didn't develop into a massive and lengthy retelling of the final tales of the Silmarillion. Unsure

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel



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