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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
will the climax of "Desolation" be an invented action sequence with Smaug and the dwarves?
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LordElrond
Rivendell


Jul 8 2013, 8:57am

Post #1 of 60 (1716 views)
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will the climax of "Desolation" be an invented action sequence with Smaug and the dwarves? Can't Post

In an interview with Peter Jackson he says there's a battle between Smaug and the dwarves and there will be bombs and artillery etc. This is obviously not in the book at all but it does sound interesting. Does this mean Smaug's attack on Laketown will be left for the third film?


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jul 8 2013, 9:50am

Post #2 of 60 (951 views)
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As far as the bombs and artillery are concerned [In reply to] Can't Post

I have my fingers crossed that that was PJ's idea of a joke. It's probably wishing for too much, I know.....

Another example of something that doesn't need to be done but is being done anyway. Nevertheless, it could work, depending on how it's handled. If it's a straight fight then it would be stupid as the Dwarves and Bilbo would all be incinerated-as least one of them would die in reality. If it's the Dwarves hiding under ledges, trying to avoid the fire and retaliating with whatever means they have available to them, then it could make a fairly good climax, provided that they eventually retreat into the secret door as in the book.

I can vaguely understand why PJ wants a confrontation between the main protagonists and the primary antagonist-particularly for the sake of Thorin confronting the embodiment of everything standing between him and glory. It's an interesting parallel in a way, since Thorin is of course susceptible to his own greed just as the dragon is.

This would be the solution to the problem that I have often wondered about: how would you keep non-book readers interested if Smaug, the big baddie, is killed off in the second film? Some of the "Normal" viewers as such may think "Hmmph, what's the point of watching the third film if the big baddies just died? We know the goodies are going to win now!" Obviously if he dies in the third film that problem is solved, though I do hope that he dies in his proper place, because his presence at the Battle of Five Armies as some have speculated would be plain disrespectful.

Again, not necessary really. Did the Fellowship ever have to have a full-on battle with Sauron? Nope, they didn't, even if Aragorn came close to having a slug fest with Old Nine Fingers during the Black Gate sequence.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 8 2013, 10:09am

Post #3 of 60 (904 views)
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I actually think a confrontation between Smaug and the company is a good idea... [In reply to] Can't Post

It makes sense from a cinematic POV.

But I wouldn't put anything past PJ at this point. We were mostly lucky with the deviations in LOTR, but we also saw a glimpse of liberties taken too far (Arwen at Helms Deep, Aragorn Vs. Sauron).

I feel a lot of the problems with The Hobbit at this point are with liberties taken way too far.

At least now I'm expecting things to be so ridiculous that they're laughable.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

(This post was edited by jtarkey on Jul 8 2013, 10:10am)


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 8 2013, 11:11am

Post #4 of 60 (822 views)
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Perhaps "Embellished" is a better word [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with others that some confrontation between Smaug and the Dwarves would be much more cinematic. If they just went by the book, the Dwarves would look weak and cowardly if they ran into the passageway, shut the door, and allowed the dragon to "let off his rage", as the book says, on the mountain. Some sort of Thorin-Smaug confrontation, if done right, could be awesome. We'll have to figure out how they could do this without the Dwarves getting toasted.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Noria
Rohan

Jul 8 2013, 12:35pm

Post #5 of 60 (765 views)
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It could work [In reply to] Can't Post

or a battle of some sort between the Dwarves and Smaug could be awful.

I agree that the Dwarves escaping into the Mountain and closing the door makes offers only a little tension and excitement. They can't stand up against Smaug in battle but a more elaborate sequence in which their escape is complicated or some are trying to cover the retreat of others could be interesting.

After all, the Dwarves of AUJ are more like those of the LotR book rather the helpless idiots of the Hobbit novel.

As for the artillery and bombs, I have to think that PJ is joking unless the Dwarves are going to improvise such things, maybe from the remains of equipment laying around. Wasn't there a bit in the videolog with Dwalin messing with some piece of equipment?


frodolives
Lorien

Jul 8 2013, 12:49pm

Post #6 of 60 (710 views)
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Can you link us to this interview? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any chance you could find this interview with PJ? I really hope he's kidding. But I doubt it.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 8 2013, 12:57pm

Post #7 of 60 (714 views)
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See... [In reply to] Can't Post

Here and here.


Quote
'Jackson has always felt the book lacked a definite confrontation between the Dwarves and Smaug. He's rectified that. There will be bombs, infernal artillery, and one mightily p***** off dragon. 'It gets pretty crazy'.


Smile

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jul 8 2013, 1:03pm)


Noria
Rohan

Jul 8 2013, 12:57pm

Post #8 of 60 (714 views)
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Empire article? [In reply to] Can't Post

Beat me to it Daniel and with actual useful information too!


(This post was edited by Noria on Jul 8 2013, 12:59pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 8 2013, 1:19pm

Post #9 of 60 (685 views)
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Get used to it [In reply to] Can't Post

Daniel always beats people to it, with useful information.

Tongue

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


dave_lf
Gondor

Jul 8 2013, 1:36pm

Post #10 of 60 (667 views)
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Partially invented [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it will end with the destruction of Laketown and Smaug's death, but that the dwarves will be part of that setpiece somehow. Maybe everyone will get a few licks in so each group has some right to claim responsibility for the act in order to set up the events of film 3 (et tu, Thorin?).


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 8 2013, 1:44pm

Post #11 of 60 (644 views)
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It could be part of it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

.. but I'm still betting that the real climax will be Smaug at Laketown, and his downfall.

I just can't imagine a scene that big being used as the opening to a film, and the cliff-hanger ending doesn't seem to be in Peter Jackson's style. So far all his Middle Earth films have ended in the pattern 'action climax... resolution... hint of what's to come' - except Return of the King, which needed no hints, being the end.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 8 2013, 2:45pm

Post #12 of 60 (631 views)
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It could possibly be the climax for DoS... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In an interview with Peter Jackson he says there's a battle between Smaug and the dwarves and there will be bombs and artillery etc. This is obviously not in the book at all but it does sound interesting. Does this mean Smaug's attack on Laketown will be left for the third film?



It is possible that Smaug's attack on Lake-town will be left to There and Back Again, but it's hard to say at this point.

I don't like the idea of the Dwarves having bombs, but it could be justified if Gandalf provided them to Thorin. At least we know that he is knowledgable about pyrotechnics (as is Saruman).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2013, 3:47pm

Post #13 of 60 (584 views)
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I agree completely... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I actually think a confrontation between Smaug and the company is a good idea... It makes sense from a cinematic POV.

But I wouldn't put anything past PJ at this point. We were mostly lucky with the deviations in LOTR, but we also saw a glimpse of liberties taken too far (Arwen at Helms Deep, Aragorn Vs. Sauron).

I feel a lot of the problems with The Hobbit at this point are with liberties taken way too far.

At least now I'm expecting things to be so ridiculous that they're laughable.

A confrontation the dwarves and Smaug could work really well, as long as it's not an out-and-out battle. Let's just hope Jackson/Boyens/Walsh (let's not forget Walsh-- Boyens tends to take a lot of the blame around here) can show a little restraint with their deviations from now on...


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2013, 3:55pm

Post #14 of 60 (605 views)
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I hope it was some sick twisted Joke [In reply to] Can't Post

personally I think they have deviated enough from the text. The film is after all called the Hobbit. If they feel they need to change everything about the book maybe they should simply change the title of the film to reflect that it is more about middle earth, Thorin, The White Council.

How about "the Dragon, the Wizard, and the Wardrobe"?

Why Not? Since these films resemble Narnia more than LOTR middle earth IMO anywaysTongue


Rostron2
Gondor


Jul 8 2013, 5:12pm

Post #15 of 60 (500 views)
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Maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to keep people off-balance as to what they think they know about the story and its narrative. However, we know they aren't going to die in such a confrontation, so its kind of like when they killed off Kirk in the recent Star trek film, you know they have to bring him back to life somehow three minutes later.


nhui06
Rivendell

Jul 8 2013, 5:16pm

Post #16 of 60 (521 views)
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What was the end game for the Dwarves in the book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book, what did the Dwarves hope to accomplish anyways? I remember they sent Bilbo into Erebor, but I do not remember what they wanted him to do.. Bilbo stole a cup and got caught, then Smaug got angry and flew to Laketown to destroy it. It doesn't really make much sense.

Maybe the movie will have more of a plan. Perhaps the Dwarves will battle Smaug to get him kicked out (get their artillery from Laketown) OR maybe Thorin only wants the Arkenstone and sends Biblo to retrieve it, but then Bilbo gets caught and the Dwarves have to run in and save him (hence the bombs).


dave_lf
Gondor

Jul 8 2013, 5:34pm

Post #17 of 60 (499 views)
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Partially addressed in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

The short answer is that they had no idea what they were going to do once they got there. Smaug guesses the plan must be a weak one (though he suspects the Lakemen), and plants doubts in Bilbo's mind:

"'I don't know if it has occurred to you that, even if you could steal the gold bit by bit-a matter of a hundred years or so, you could not get it very far?'
...
You will hardly believe it, but poor Bilbo was really very taken aback. So far all his thoughts and energies had been concentrated on getting to the Mountain and finding the entrance. He had never bothered to wonder how the treasure was to be removed, certainly never how any part of it that might fall to his share was to be brought back all the way to Bag-End Under-Hill. Now a nasty suspicion began to grow in his mind-had the dwarves forgotten this important point too, or were they laughing in their sleeves at him all the time? That is the effect that dragon-talk has on the inexperienced."

But no one ever does provide an answer to Smaug's questions.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Jul 8 2013, 5:37pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 8 2013, 5:49pm

Post #18 of 60 (473 views)
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Um... wardrobe? [In reply to] Can't Post

Would you care to identify the wardrobe, for the terminally confused? I'm OK on the dragon and the wizard....

I'd say The Hobbit's a better name for it personally, but there you go!


Skaan
Lorien


Jul 8 2013, 5:50pm

Post #19 of 60 (518 views)
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In the movie, it seems like their plan is to kill Smaug [In reply to] Can't Post

Judging by the Shire sequence where the dwarves claim Gandalf must have killed hundreds of dragons, and by the DoS trailer where Thranduil mentions "The quest to reclaim a homeland and slay a dragon"


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2013, 6:13pm

Post #20 of 60 (436 views)
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Bilbo's fine dressing gown, of course.../ [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2013, 7:40pm

Post #21 of 60 (409 views)
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was comparing the hobbit to the Narnia series [In reply to] Can't Post

"the Lion, the witch, and the wardrobe", Angelic Poor attempt at humor I guess, However The Hobbit has IMO sank about as far as the Narnia films in style and not much better in script writing either. How much has changed since LOTR was released. Peter Jackson was concerned with keeping the tone and feel of Tolkien with those films, was always going back to the source material. Wanted the world of middle earth, all its creatures, and people to feel real.... Now with the Hobbit he seems proud to have changed and altered what the author worked to create. Giving false information like there being 125 pages of appendices related to the Hobbit, that the author planned to rewrite the hobbit anyways, Feeling the need to make up characters because there wasn't enough feminine energy,.. What were getting is not an adaptation so much as Jackson rewriting Tolkien. Had Tolkien rewrote the Hobbit that is one thing but for Peter Jackson to do it seems like sacrilege to me.Tongue.

Personally I would rather they changed the name instead of confuse people new to Tolkien who have never read the book that will end up thinking what Jackson put out is a fair representation of the source material which IMO it is definitely not.Unsure

Back on topic though IF they do show the dwarfs using bombs(which I honestly hope NOT) I hope it is simply in retaliation to Smaug attacking the side of the mountain and the dwarfs in trying to defend themselves end up blowing up the tunnel sealing themselves inside.


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Jul 8 2013, 7:45pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2013, 8:07pm

Post #22 of 60 (396 views)
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Personally [In reply to] Can't Post

i think the filmmakers professed love for the works of Tolkien and how they are making these for the fans, its just public relations.

The bombs, well, fiery bombs from smaug, yes i can see jackson going that route...from the dwarves...perhaps they will find some catapults and launch rocks at the worm...

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jul 8 2013, 8:49pm

Post #23 of 60 (371 views)
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Possibly a reference to... [In reply to] Can't Post

...where Thranduil keeps his outfits and his interchangeable crowns! Wink


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


TheSexyBeard
Lorien


Jul 8 2013, 9:03pm

Post #24 of 60 (353 views)
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Beards Vs Scales [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the scene where the Dwarves recover Bofur and Bombur and make it through the door in the nick of time is being expanded. Artillery and bombs could be a reference to Smaug's fire rather than actual bombs but it's pretty much impossible to tell at the moment. From these screen grabs by Dark Jackal of the latest vlog, Dwalin does look like he is operating some heavy machinery here , maybe a catapult? And the lighting when Nori grabs Throin, looks like it might be to simulate flames, maybe hinting that Smaug might be up and about.

Yes, my username is terrible.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 8 2013, 9:51pm

Post #25 of 60 (316 views)
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Yes, I knew what you were getting at.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just didn't think it was much of a comparison. And as for the adaptation, the appendices, it isn't really worth going into a long argument about that. We just see it differently and there's an end of it.

I was interested to see that alongside the much quoted comment from Peter Jackson about the changes he's making:

". . . I am enjoying deviating from the book. We introduce a lot of Appendices material. . . We introduce Legolas and Tauriel, who are not characters from the book. In fact, Tauriel is not even a character from Tolkien. But as a filmmaker that is a refreshing thing. We are able to go places which will ultimately be surprising."

... the Empire article also stresses how pervasive the books - all the books, not just The Hobbit - are in what they're doing:

"the master is never far from hand. . . However far they deviate from the text, they are taking Tolkien with them."

Now, I expect you will say that the only book they should be consulting is The Hobbit and that's a fair point. And maybe you or others will disagree with the writer's conclusion, but I think at least it does show that they're mindful of Tolkien and that they believe they're doing him justice, or at least trying to.

But as far as bombs - actual bombs - go, I agree with you and I'm sure he didn't mean bombs as such, or artillery. I don't expect that any more than I expect them to be using GPS to find the mountain or mobile phones. I'm sure he just meant something else, which won't make sense until we see the film.

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