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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Number one ridiculous problem with AUJ to me
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DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 6:08pm

Post #76 of 198 (621 views)
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Please read upward... [In reply to] Can't Post

...in the threads; this will save you lots of typing! Wink In several of the posts above I've mentioned most of your points, and in one I've estimated the momentum of the Dwarves as they are thrown against the mountain ledge.

One thing that you got wrong was Bilbo's momentum. He doesn't have any, because he was with Thorin's half of the company. It isn't shown, but presumably it was the force of the impact that made him lose his footing and nearly fall off the ledge.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Werde Spinner
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 7:52pm

Post #77 of 198 (568 views)
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No, not the superheroes. [In reply to] Can't Post

I get Thor, Iron Man, the Hulk, etc. crashing through glass. That's expected. It's when Hawkeye, who has zero magical/technological/whatever powers, crashes through the glass and doesn't get cut up by it, though his uniform doesn't have any sleeves. At least the actor has the sense to make it look like it hurt.

I am also thinking of the scene in Thor where the Destroyer explodes the restaraunt/whatever and glass goes flying over the depowered Thor (we can excuse him), Jane, Eric, and Darcy. They are mortals, and yet they don't get cut by glass. *sigh* I'll just file it up there with the "NOOOOOO" scream. Those two get me every time. (I've often considered that perhaps Thorin should be yelling the Dwarvish word for, "Grandpa!" at that moment instead, but no one I tell this to seems to think that would be a good idea... Wink)

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Marionette
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 7:57pm

Post #78 of 198 (569 views)
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I have noticed that too [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



Werde Spinner
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 8:03pm

Post #79 of 198 (588 views)
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Oh, I type fast [In reply to] Can't Post

...so a lot of typing doesn't bother me. I'm just glad for the chance to have a bit of intelligent discussion about AUJ with people, since I have very few friends who know enough about Tolkien (or physics, for that matter) to discuss this with. They're like, "Dwarves? Who cares about Dwarves?" or, "Fili... which one was that again? The dark-haired one?" Unsure Part of the reason I love TORn so much.

But Bilbo is right next to Bofur, isn't he? The camera zooms in on his face as they approach the mountain ledge. How could he be with Thorin's group? Thorin walks past where he is dangling when he runs to see what happened to Fili (or Kili, poor Thorin, can't be easy keeping those two straight). I mean, I have a picture on my computer of Bilbo and Bofur side-by-side in this scene (the 'toasters are evil' one I referenced earlier) and it's just a screenshot with a caption. (I would add an attachment of it, but apparently it's too big to attach no matter how I crop it, grr.) He had to have been with the group that fell onto the ledge, surely.

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 6 2013, 8:14pm

Post #80 of 198 (598 views)
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Even fantasy films need to keep somewhat grounded [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
All due respect to your degree and majors in laws of physics but these are FANTASY films not historical films or films which are trying to emulate reality. I mean geesh, where in the laws of physics can a wizard turn a pinecone into flames? I mean if we are going by laws of physics than yeah there are 1,000 things that could never happen in AUJ.



There is a difference between a fantasy film and a Loony Tunes cartoon. Even a fantasy film needs to avoid cartoon physics unless we are falling completely into parody territory. That shouldn't be the case here.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 8:31pm

Post #81 of 198 (581 views)
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I wrote a similar longer post [In reply to] Can't Post

but it wouldn't post for some reason. Fantasy stories should be able to have fantastic elements while retaining realistic rules within their own physical world.


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

Jul 6 2013, 9:25pm

Post #82 of 198 (574 views)
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Company Reaction. [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, the reaction after their encounter with the giants is more
the issue. The stones giants spectacle and the company's harrowing
escape from utter destruction seems a bit disproportionate to their reactions
following this episode. First, Thorin berates Bilbo for hanging over the ledge, while
Kili and a handful of other dwarves were seemingly crushed moments before. This
was Bilbo's fault, right? Or maybe this was Thorin venting in the vulnerability of
inexplicable events and their concomitant mercurial emotions of almost having lost
his comrades. The scene right in the cave though, could be weird as it is almost as if
none of the dwarves realize the ridiculous episode they had just survived. Maybe it was
too traumatic and inexplicable, too harrowing, that one can only move on as if nothing
happened in particular. But maybe one look of disbelief from an exhausted dwarf leaning against
a wall would've qualified the stone giants spectacle. You know what I mean? Do the characters
themselves even know what they've been through LOL! Thoughts?


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 9:44pm

Post #83 of 198 (571 views)
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i wasn't saying it should be "looney tunes" [In reply to] Can't Post

i was saying these films are fantasy films, therefore you can't say a stone giant which doesn't exist in reality is capable of killing dwarves which are in a hollowed out piece of rock on him defies the laws of physics.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jul 6 2013, 9:46pm

Post #84 of 198 (571 views)
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Disagree... [In reply to] Can't Post

about the angle. To me it seemed entirely plausible that the others ran off the "knee" of the Giant they were on and onto a ledge, just as the group with Thorin in it did earlier. We did not see it because the view was blocked by a jutting outcrop of rock that separated where Thorin's group was, and where the other group was.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 6 2013, 10:05pm

Post #85 of 198 (542 views)
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...and why Dads should leave skateboarding to the kids? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is why little kids don't get hurt from falls that would badly injure an adult.


Tongue

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 10:21pm

Post #86 of 198 (530 views)
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Your crash [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
People have ridden an open barrel down a set of the world's most dangerous rapids, beginning with Graham Carlisle, who did it in 1886 at Whirlpool Rapids, Niagara Falls, in an oak barrel similar to the ones the Dwarves will steal in DOS.

Based on the distance the Dwarves moved when the stone giant fell against the mountain (estimated 50 meters) and the time it took (about 3 seconds), they would have been thrown against the mountain at a speed of about 40 miles per hour. I once drove my motorcycle straight into a black Toyota SUV hidden in some shadows, speed 40 mph, no brakes at all. I had nothing more than a few bruises.

My brother loved to do the Thrain stunt when he was a little kid and Dwarf-size. He loved to climb trees and fall out or jump on people. You have to realize that a person half as tall as a normal human, and having the same shape, weighs 8 times less, not just half as much, because mass scales as the third power (cube) of linear dimension. This is why little kids don't get hurt from falls that would badly injure an adult.

I'll be posting "The Physics of The Hobbit" soon, so maybe we can discuss it further after that.

,


While it is the case you survived people still die at collisions slower than that all the time! Try no helmet, wet, windy and nothing but jagged rocks to hold onto or land onto. What is the probability of multiple people surviving such an event? There would be fractures, internal bleeding, concussions etc. It wouldn't be the relieved little scene after the encounter in the movie! Blood bath and dwarf limbs everywhere!!!

Evil


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 10:39pm

Post #87 of 198 (541 views)
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even Indiana Jones [In reply to] Can't Post

who can apparently survive a nuclear blast in a fridge, has the grace to look knackered and bruised. these dwarves just carry on as if nothing untoward had just happened.


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Jul 6 2013, 10:40pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 7 2013, 12:23am

Post #88 of 198 (527 views)
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Fantasy vs. Reality [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i wasn't saying it should be "looney tunes"



No, but you might as well have been if you are suggesting that fantasy films should automatically be excused from bearing any resemblance to reality. You are basically saying that we should divorce Middle-earth from the laws of nature.


Quote

i was saying these films are fantasy films, therefore you can't say a stone giant which doesn't exist in reality is capable of killing dwarves which are in a hollowed out piece of rock on him defies the laws of physics.



I wasn't the one saying that but, regardless, we can look at the Stone-giant as Peter Jackson presented it and make some rough estimates of its mass and density. So we are able to make an educated guess about the likelihood of the company's survival of such an ecounter. That is precisely what a couple of the posters here have done. And it is completely legitimite speculation.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jul 7 2013, 4:04am

Post #89 of 198 (480 views)
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Not fantasy. [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems to have been some major confusion regarding the word 'fantasy' in this thread. For a start, the stories, as written, were not fantasy - they are a mixture of folk tale and myth, and these are firmly grounded in the realities of everyday life. Tolkien wrote them to represent ordinary English folk getting dragged into dangerous adventures in a world that was familiar, but had fantastical elements - things that he pretends used to exist but are no longer present - elves, balrogs etc. Just as, in a story which brings dinosaurs into the modern age - we wouldn't expect them to be pogoing around unrealistically - a tyrannosaurus climbing a tree for example - equally, we would expect rocks to behave like rocks and gravity to behave like gravity in a film set in Middle Earth (the Saxon term for Europe).

It's pointless saying it's just a fantasy film - every film is a fantasy film - the world of The Godfather or any comedy you could name or a crime thriller - they're all fantasy worlds that have enough resemblance to our own for us to imagine them to be real. In some respects they are less real for me - I'm certainly more familiar with the Shire than I am with the fictionalised centre of New York or LA that I see in many films. I grew up in it - I could see some of the landmarks - barrows, standing stones, emptied tombs, a creepy old forest where you could get lost, quiet rivers with old twisted willows, small pubs which hadn't changed much since the middle ages, - all within a ten minute bike ride of my home. The hills around our village are covered in the ruins of an ancient, almost unknown, civilisation - in fact, I could pretty much recreate the journey from Bag End by leaving our old house, across the fields, through the woods, down into the old forest by the river and up onto the high moors where there is a solitary hill with an ancient fortress on it. In fact I expect there are many places in England, Scotland and Wales where you could recreate these landscapes - at least until the Misty Mountains, where you'd probably have to cross the sea to Europe/Scandinavia.

I think it's possible that people who haven't experienced the reality of the places that these tales come from, might not understand why others are wanting to see the films retain the realism of the previous trilogy - films that were filmed as if they were recreating historical fact, according to PJ.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 7 2013, 5:31am

Post #90 of 198 (466 views)
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Don't forget scaling! [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the most important factors in the physics of being a Dwarf or Hobbit is the scaling principle, Galileo's "square-cube" law. Mass scales as the cube of linear dimension, while area (including cross-sectional area of bone and muscle, and therefore strength) scales as the square of linear dimension. Thus a Hobbit half as tall as a human and having the same shape weighs only one eighth as much, and is proportionally stronger than a human. Since momentum = mv with m = mass and v = velocity, a Dwarf of Hobbit can survive a crash much more easily than a human. As I've posted before, this explains why little kids can take falls that would seriously injure an adult. As a kid I watched my brother climb high up into a tree, then use his little saw to saw off one of the tree limbs- unfortunately, the limb he was hanging onto (brother wasn't the sharpest tool in the box). He fell straight down out of the tree onto his back but was unhurt. Dweller was also at a party a while back where kids were playing around upstairs while the adults were downstairs, and one kid (10 years old) fell out a second storey window. He was scared but otherwise OK, and in fact was bragging about it the next day!

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




(This post was edited by DwellerInDale on Jul 7 2013, 5:32am)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 7 2013, 5:54am

Post #91 of 198 (502 views)
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Nicely written Bumblingidiot [In reply to] Can't Post

although I enjoy being able to walk where some scenes were filmed I envy your situation.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2013, 6:26am

Post #92 of 198 (491 views)
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yes it is a fantasy film because there are... [In reply to] Can't Post

War films, science fiction films, horror films, drama films ect... This would be a fantasy film because it takes place in a place which never existed with people and creatures which do not exist. Yes, most of all films are fiction or based on nonfictional events but that does not mean ALL films are fantasy. Please look up words on google or in a dictionary if you are unsure of their meaning.


fan∑ta∑sy
Noun
The faculty or activity of imagining things that are impossible or improbable.
Verb
Imagine the occurrence of; fantasize about.

-That in no way, shape or form describes all movies.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Jul 7 2013, 6:28am)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jul 7 2013, 11:02am

Post #93 of 198 (458 views)
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I dont think he meant [In reply to] Can't Post

literal fantasy, as in a totally made up magical world, but that the films we see ie set in New York are not the real New York but a manufactured version of it, it is not the real place, for example any historical film set in a particular era is going to have distortions and inaccuracies. a film like Amalie set in Paris, Paris is not actually a pseudo 1950s wonderland full of quirky characters. so every film is fantasy. the word fantasy does not only mean fairyland.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2013, 1:30pm

Post #94 of 198 (479 views)
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Though there are other things that bother me much more in AUJ, [In reply to] Can't Post

the Stone Giants sequence is the most ridiculous thing in the film. It should have remained a mysterious, scary half-halucination barely glimpsed through the storm.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 7 2013, 2:54pm

Post #95 of 198 (465 views)
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Bomby's View? [In reply to] Can't Post

When the Theatrical Release of FOTR came out?
Bot it!
When the EE version Release came out?
Bot it!
NEVER could get over how Much more complete the EE's are over
the TE's.

Bomby THINKS.. what we are discussing is JUST... a "Highlight Reel"...
PJ's extra 20 or minutes will find a Way to solve most
if... not ALL issues.

A shot or two of dialogue, from are mostly Anyomous Dwarves, sprinkled throughout
will go a..
a Long way.


Elessar
Valinor


Jul 7 2013, 3:51pm

Post #96 of 198 (418 views)
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I'm with ya [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't find the stone giants stuff ridiculous or beyond belief at all. I did find myself (even knowing they were ok) wanting to make sure they were ok. That scene was pretty darn cool I thought. The fall into Goblin Town and the bridge ride down did feel a little OTT. However, the rest of the time was fantastic and its one of my favorite moments. These films are just so good be it The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit that I'm kept in what's going on, and don't get into some of these other things.



Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2013, 2:55am

Post #97 of 198 (376 views)
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I await your analysis but I too did not care for the toooo over the top [In reply to] Can't Post

scenes that seem to take us out of Middle Earth and into ridiculousness. The Stone Giant scene - considering the steep angles, giant movements, falling debris and tremendous shock waves from the collisions was just too much to believe. I liked the initial scene of them on the trail and the giants throwing the boulders and them scrambling around. But for them to be on a stone giant was too much for me.

The Goblin Town scenes should offer interesting analysis...fall height and speed with terminal forces etc. Once again, for me, too much over the top action.

I am strongly inclined to think that studios think shooting in 3D necessitates such scenes for justification which is too bad.

There were also too many cliff hanging scenes. Just thought I would toss that in.

However, I still enjoyed the film overall and have high hopes for the next two.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 8 2013, 2:56am)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2013, 3:05am

Post #98 of 198 (424 views)
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No offense meant but... [In reply to] Can't Post

maybe that's because many people don't find the film that good or feel it has too many unbelievable stunts in it. Especially when compared to LOTR. Which the film makers themselves are the ones trying to draw connections. LOTR at least put situations much more realistically. Not characters, we all know ents and trolls aren't real or ever will be, but the situations were much more reality based aside from a few Legolas stunts. In comparison were maybe 10 minutes worth of film were as the Hobbit has about half the film filled with unbelievable stunts. Characters in LOTR got hurt, they had limitations, but in the Hobbit everyone is special and can do amazing feats. Which in all honesty is about as far from something being real as possible. LOTR got the forumla right and the Hobbit at this point in the eyes of many has not gotten it right. Just more and more people are willing to admit it.

I will say and have said time and time again when Jackson stuck to Tolkien I found the film brilliant, when he altered it or went completely OTT I really didn't like it. I preferred the more historical, reality based LOTR and have always felt the Hobbit could stand to have the same treatment done to it.


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Jul 8 2013, 3:10am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2013, 3:38am

Post #99 of 198 (387 views)
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and.... [In reply to] Can't Post

despite the fact that many here might not like AUJ the film was a huge box office hit and i will bet you that DOS will do even better than AUJ. So you might hate these new films but you are in the minority. If you don't like AUJ than why see DOS or TABA? i'm betting you will.. I wouldn't put 'historical' into the mix with these films, sure their not peter pan fantasy but their still fantasy i don't care how you slice it.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Elessar
Valinor


Jul 8 2013, 3:55am

Post #100 of 198 (360 views)
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I kind of loathe [In reply to] Can't Post

when people say no offense because its almost as if someone is saying, "I'm going to offend you but will use this to make you not think so." You're right there are plenty of people who don't like things within AUJ or don't find AUJ to be a good film. Thing is there are plenty that do like what we saw and find the movie to be very good. You also have people like myself who have a few issues but feel they got most everything right. So in the end I don't think it's the best approach to act as if one is standing in the majority. I don't think we will know things for years to come.

Outside of a couple moments I didn't think The Hobbit was that far off The Lord of the Rings. You're free to disagree and I support you in your disagreement but we're both right for the reasons we feel. Cool


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