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When do you forsee ...seeing the Silmarillion on screen?
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Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 3:10pm

Post #26 of 41 (193 views)
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in the u.s. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
in the u.s., a work may not automatically fall into the public domain after a period of years. i think this may differ from other countries.

i've had to deal with public domain issues a small bit in my professional incarnation. at one point, i thought the great gatsby might have been in the public domain, and i called up the gatsby folks to inquire. i can still remember the person's +extremely+ hard and slightly unfriendly tone when i was told that they rigorously defend the copyright.

the cut-off date is anything produced before january 1, 1923. which means works by fitzgerald published before 1923 (this side of paradise, the beautiful and damned) are in the public domain. but the calendar rolling on from his death (1940) does not guarantee that the great gatsby (1925) will fall into the public domain by +70 years or so.

here's a bit more...

u.s. copyright / public domain


england may be a bit different.


honestly, i think 70 years is too short. speaking as a writer and producer of artistic works, i wrote them, i drew them, i produced them. i would like the public to benefit, but if there's still an interest in, say, at least 100 years, then i think that's more reasonable.

the right of warner brothers or disney to scoop up someone else's stories or images so that they can make billions of dollars (and potentially legally harass others who produce works based on the same stories or themes) should not trump the rights of the original artist and her/his creative heirs.

here's an example of how how ideas, colors, things in the public domain can be argued as a corporation's intellectual property. there's a company, christian loubitin, that distinguishes its shoes by making the soles red. yves saint laurent made red soled shoes. louboutin sued ysl, stating that it had the sole right to manufacture red-soled shoes. not even any particular shade, mind you -- all red colors.

red soled shoes lawsuit

i find it ridiculous that the patent was granted in the first place.

the susan g. komen foundation regards "for the cure" as theirs, and spends money on legal battles to prevent or discourage other charitable organizations from using that phrase.

"for the cure" legal battles between susan g. komen foundation and other charities

"Sue Prom, who started a small dog sledding fundraiser for breast cancer called "Mush for the Cure" in Grand Marais, Minn., said she was shocked to hear from Komen's lawyers this summer asking that she change the name of her event or face legal proceedings.

"I had to call the trademark helpline, because I had no idea what I was doing," said Prom, who runs the annual sled race with her husband and friend. "We pay for the expenses out of our pockets, and we've never personally made a dime from it. We have t-shirts, sweatshirts, domain names, posters, stationery, all with 'Mush for the Cure' on it. What do we do with all the materials now? How are we gonna defend ourselves? We're not like Komen.""


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jul 6 2013, 3:14pm)


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 8:46pm

Post #27 of 41 (170 views)
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Well, here we had the fiasco over the word Olympic and the Olympic logo [In reply to] Can't Post

Last year, especially immediately around the Games, the sponsors (bastions of healthy living like Coca Cola etc) put out a ban on any businesses in East London and even beyond, using the word "Olympic" in their promotions or business, or to use the Olympic Rings logo- basically the big corporations had managed to get sole rights to use these! So small Greek and Cypriot cafes etc, which had been called "The Olympic..." for many years, were told to change their name while the games were on! There were a lot of complaints in the media about all of this.

Regarding books, etc, I think the copyright law here in the UK is probably a bit different to the US, but the above example shows that multinationals etc are another matter!


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 7 2013, 3:05am

Post #28 of 41 (151 views)
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LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The Silmarillion: The Revenge of Morgoth, or the Silmarillion: The Elves Strike back.

Now THAT is what the Tolkien Estate is shivering in their boots about.





CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 7 2013, 3:08am

Post #29 of 41 (150 views)
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Really? We can sign up to die in The Silmarillion movie? I'm in!! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 7 2013, 3:13am

Post #30 of 41 (144 views)
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Work arounds? [In reply to] Can't Post

As I recall, the movie "Jezebel" with Bette Davis was loosely based on "Gone With The Wind." OK, so that's a movie about romance in the US South in the Civil War, not Elves and Morgoth. But I wonder if someone could make a movie and change the names/races/whatever and get away with it? Not that I would want that at all, I just wonder if they could legally work around the film rights? You need a mythic landscape, epic stories, and some great battles. A romance and a cursed family. Talking dog (Huan) is optional.


CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 7 2013, 3:25am

Post #31 of 41 (162 views)
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A little extreme [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed, I think CT is too close to his father's work. I am close to his father's work, not as close as him, obviously, but I can't swallow this from Chris (and thanks for the link, Mac):

Quote
"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time," Christopher Tolkien observes sadly. "The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. The commercialization has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away."

The movies have brought many people to the books, people who wouldn't have read them otherwise, and those people often enjoy the books for themselves. Has he not noticed the explosion in book sales? It's not just about Hobbit action figures.

RE: the culture quote. I wasn't sure what to make of it. With LOTR in 60 languages, did they maybe mean it belongs to cultures around the world who probably don't identify with the English countryside of The Hobbit or the Germanic nature of the Rohirrim? Though I guess if they bring up parodies and comic strips, maybe they did mean a "lower culture." (How do you suppose they didn't stop "Bored of the Rings" if they can stop a comic strip?)


Starling
Half-elven


Jul 7 2013, 5:06am

Post #32 of 41 (154 views)
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That's the spirit [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it! Laugh


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2013, 6:35am

Post #33 of 41 (126 views)
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quite agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

 
the films caused many to read the books -- millions who may not have known about tolkien -- millions who may have known, but thought they couldn't relate to that "fantasy stuff."

i think "bored of the rings" (which i found unfunny and puerile -- and that says a lot, coming from me) skated by because it's clearly satire, which is fair use, as i understand it.

i am +so+ thankful to christopher t. without him, we wouldn't have home +or+ the sil. imagine the published tolkien universe limited to the hobbit and lotr. an immense labor, of love and dedication. after hearing of the state of his father's writings (often no dates, and he would lug papers willy-nilly about, and when he had need of paper would grab just any old one, even if it had text from decades past, and start scribbling) i can hardly imagine the herculean labor this all took. and he quit his job to do it.

but, sadness as well. he systematically reduced or removed entirely female characters in the sil in a way that seems most anti-female. his mind is closed to film interpretations. he laments that he can't control it all -- not financially, but intellectually.

not everyone is subtle enough or diligent enough to glean and ponder the philosophies about life, death, etc. in the books. for some, it is just an adventure story. but you can't control what people glean from it in its written form, in the same way that you can't control what folks get out of the films. yes, i think dwarf-tossing jokes and drinking game jokes in the lotr films were just awful +on so many levels+, but they were momentary blips, and i would not wish them out of existence at the expense of the whole never seeing light. the films +did+ contain the poetic. they were not just action flicks. it's astonishing to me that he could see them that way.

i think it's incredibly, incredibly sad that he's closed the door to sil and home film productions. i do support his right to do so. and i thank him for all of his efforts on the whole, nonetheless.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2013, 6:38am

Post #34 of 41 (129 views)
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that's so foul [In reply to] Can't Post

 
that's just so foul, telain elaen. really? no grandfather clauses for the grandfathers running greek diners? for international games of brotherhood and peace. that's right up there with the komen foundation suing other charities (see above).

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


acheron
Gondor


Jul 7 2013, 6:11pm

Post #35 of 41 (127 views)
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you seem to be mixing up copyright, patent, and trademark [In reply to] Can't Post

...which are three distinct concepts each with their own very different laws.

Among other things, US trademarks must be actively defended or they will be lost, whereas copyright passively exists even if no one is actively using it.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2013, 6:25pm

Post #36 of 41 (108 views)
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forgive me [In reply to] Can't Post

 
hi acheron --

forgive me for not being precise enough. the general point i was making was that large corporations can twist the rules (be they copyright, patent, or trademark) because they have deep pockets against which smaller (and legitimate) entities cannot compete.

and i do understand that trademarks and patents must be defended, but things as generic as "red soles" and "cure" are ridiculously broad. in the case of komen, it gives rise to an organization spending a fortune on battling another entity that is in a different health arena, and only trying to improve things for human beings. a fortune that is not going "for the cure."


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 7 2013, 7:44pm

Post #37 of 41 (101 views)
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One Question? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is the Tolkien Estate getting Any Money
From PJ's Movies?

Bomby knows Nothing?


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2013, 7:46pm

Post #38 of 41 (96 views)
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hi bomby : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, i believe so.

the article i linked to says that the tolkien estate went to court to address the language that the estate would share in the profits of these enterprises. the two parties reached a settlement.

i'm glad. the tolkien estate should receive a +big+ chunk of the cake.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 7 2013, 10:37pm

Post #39 of 41 (96 views)
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'Fraid so..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that, in the end, some agreement was come to with some long standing businesses, but there certainly were a lot of issues and a huge no of complaints about the behaviour of the sponsors. I hate the fact that these huge corporations can purloin a name and logo, which is not part of their trademark etc, and act like this


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 9 2013, 3:22pm

Post #40 of 41 (61 views)
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I find myself agreeing though I don't want to [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Agreed, I think CT is too close to his father's work. I am close to his father's work, not as close as him, obviously, but I can't swallow this from Chris (and thanks for the link, Mac):

Quote
"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time," Christopher Tolkien observes sadly. "The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. The commercialization has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away."

The movies have brought many people to the books, people who wouldn't have read them otherwise, and those people often enjoy the books for themselves. Has he not noticed the explosion in book sales? It's not just about Hobbit action figures.

RE: the culture quote. I wasn't sure what to make of it. With LOTR in 60 languages, did they maybe mean it belongs to cultures around the world who probably don't identify with the English countryside of The Hobbit or the Germanic nature of the Rohirrim? Though I guess if they bring up parodies and comic strips, maybe they did mean a "lower culture." (How do you suppose they didn't stop "Bored of the Rings" if they can stop a comic strip?)




Not in the sense of not wanting to agree with you, you egregiously agreeable scamp. But I *wish* I didn't feel such a sense of disconnect between the Estate and the current cultural paradigm. Maybe its just my dislike for conflict, bit I am always trying to find a way to reconcile CT's view (which as I have said, I hold great respect for) and the fact that I do embrace the films, and can understand why the adaptations have been done the way they have been (they ARE after all 'adaptations')...makes me feel like a Bad Purist or something of that nature. I want very much to somehow agree with both sides, and then when I read the 'cultural' bash, it stings a bit, especially as an American...I know in Letters JRRT expresses some dislike for the 'American scene" and it does make one feel a bit like a second-class citizen, and that some of it is directed our way. Uneasy and a bit uncomfortable.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 9 2013, 3:23pm)


Patty
Immortal


Jul 10 2013, 12:49am

Post #41 of 41 (70 views)
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95 hours? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, he's doing the Cliff's Notes version is he?

Seriously, I don't think Peter Jackson would really do this even if he was paid ton of money.

Permanent address: Into the West





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