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SCOD - I'm On A Boat!

Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 1 2013, 1:24pm

Post #1 of 7 (677 views)
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SCOD - I'm On A Boat! Can't Post

Original image is here.



1. Later in the sequence it becomes apparent that this is Smeagol remembering the past. Do you think he is a reliable narrator? If not, what particulars do you think he’s changed? Why?

2. According to the commentaries Fran Walsh deliberately directed this scene with the actors behaving in a slightly childlike manner. Why do you suppose she would do that? BTW, do you see anything distinctive about Fran's directing style?

3. Do you think Smeagol and Deagol were as firm friends as Frodo and Sam? How does this scene foreshadow the coming rocky ROTK relationship between Frodo and Sam? Why does the friendship of Frodo and Sam not end as tragically as that of Smeagol and Deagol? Could it have?

4. Why a boat?

5. Any other comments?

******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.

Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?

So be it.
I will return your hatred.
And I am hungry.


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jul 1 2013, 1:25pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 1 2013, 10:00pm

Post #2 of 7 (451 views)
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Two hobbits in a boat [In reply to] Can't Post


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Do you think he is a reliable narrator? If not, what particulars do you think he’s changed? Why?

Good question. I don't think he's got a reliable memory, at least. The childish tone of the memory is probably because it's coming from Smeagol's POV. Perhaps also the once-upon-a-time, fairytale look of the opening shots comes from Smeagol's memory of his last moments of innocence. I don't see that Smeagol would have changed particulars of the events, though - he's just remembering, to himself, so there's no point actually lying, I guess. He's not trying to avoid the ugly fact that it was Deagol, not him, who found the Ring, and that he killed him for it.


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2. According to the commentaries Fran Walsh deliberately directed this scene with the actors behaving in a slightly childlike manner. Why do you suppose she would do that? BTW, do you see anything distinctive about Fran's directing style?

The childlike behaviour is one of the things that makes me think we're seeing Smeagol's own memory. It echoes his childish talk and impulsive behaviour. This looks like a scene of fairytale, childlike innocence at the start. All the more shocking when things turn so bad so fast once the Ring makes its appearance.

I think Fran is very good at getting right in close on scenes of high emotion. She also did the Frodo and Sam boat scene at the end of FotR, as I recall. This one echoes it in some very striking ways. The setting looks very similar - I'm not sure, in fact, whether the two scenes might have been shot at the same location? They are sort of mirror images of each other - in this scene the characters start in the boat and then separately get to shore, while in the Frodo and Sam scene they start on land and separately get to the boat - each time one of them swimming (or trying to, in Sam's case!) and one controlling the boat. But Deagol, the good swimmer, ends up dead at the hands of his friend, while Sam, the landlubber, is saved at the hands of his.


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3. Do you think Smeagol and Deagol were as firm friends as Frodo and Sam? How does this scene foreshadow the coming rocky ROTK relationship between Frodo and Sam? Why does the friendship of Frodo and Sam not end as tragically as that of Smeagol and Deagol? Could it have?

Smeagol and Deagol look like good friends - better friends, maybe, than Frodo and Sam were back in the Shire, as far as hanging out together goes anyway. Frodo and Sam probably didn't hang out together much, but they care about each other's wellbeing - Frodo trying to get Sam to dance with Rosie at the party, Sam trying to hear if Frodo is in trouble when Gandalf catches him outside the window. It's a different kind of relationship really. I can't really imagine that either Frodo or Sam, if the other one found the Ring like Deagol does, would have even wanted to take it from his friend, let alone killed for it. We don't really know just how powerful the Ring's pull might have been when it was first found after so long, but it seems to have found a tragic weakness in Smeagol's character. Could it have ended the same way with Frodo and Sam? Well it came pretty close at the end of TTT. But Frodo doesn't have the killer instinct that Smeagol seems to have. And Sam doesn't have the self-centredness that Deagol seems to have. He doesn't fight back when Frodo threatens him, and perhaps that natural instinct was exactly the right thing to remind Frodo of his own gentle nature.


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4. Why a boat?

To make that contrast with Frodo and Sam boat scene at Parth Galen? Besides the similar setting, there's also the extended underwater sequence in each scene too. Interesting that Smeagol and Deagol are in a coracle, a very old and fairly primitive boat that fits with the idea that these are early hobbits, and that this happened a very long time ago.


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5. Any other comments?

I recall that this scene was originally meant to be in TTT, maybe just after Frodo reminds Smeagol of his name. It was kept back so that the audience would have longer to get to know Smeagol and start to pity him, before they found out what he'd done. Assuming they hadn't read the book of course! Gandalf tells Frodo the story in the second chapter of the book, so he (and we) know Gollum's backstory before we meet him. I think that makes a difference in the way we perceive Gollum, and also in the way Frodo treats him, not just with pity and kindness as in the book, but with a real sense of fellowship and even trust.



They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



batik
Tol Eressea


Jul 4 2013, 6:30pm

Post #3 of 7 (391 views)
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gone fishin' [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Later in the sequence it becomes apparent that this is Smeagol remembering the past. Do you think he is a reliable narrator? If not, what particulars do you think he’s changed? Why?
I am pretty sure he's less a reliable narrator than say....Bilbo. Point 1: Size of fish--surely an exaggeration! Point 2: See how that ring went from dirty to shiny? Something was omitted there!

2. According to the commentaries Fran Walsh deliberately directed this scene with the actors behaving in a slightly childlike manner. Why do you suppose she would do that? BTW, do you see anything distinctive about Fran's directing style?
It's a bri-i-ight sunshiney day? Nope!

3. Do you think Smeagol and Deagol were as firm friends as Frodo and Sam? How does this scene foreshadow the coming rocky ROTK relationship between Frodo and Sam? Why does the friendship of Frodo and Sam not end as tragically as that of Smeagol and Deagol? Could it have?
Good times: S&D=fishing; F&S=birthday party (w/cake) Obviously, the sharing of cake makes for more lasting friendships. (On the other hand, the scene *after* this reminds me alot of Frodo and Gollum's fight scenes while in Mordor)

4. Why a boat?
Just a reminder: these are River-folk.


willowing
Lorien

Jul 5 2013, 10:13pm

Post #4 of 7 (355 views)
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SCOD-I'm on a boat [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Later in the sequence it becomes apparent that this is Smeagol remembering the past. Do you think he is a reliable narrator? If not, what particulars do you think he’s changed? Why?

Every time I watch this I often wonder about the personalities of the two characters. Deagol seems to be more naïve than Sméagol obviously he's never been fishing before. Sméagol does and he knows, the image of him with the worm is downright creepy.

The ring was fished up from the watery depths and now it was by water that Gollum would loose the ring.
His security blanket was gone....the ring where was it?

Long gone are the days when Gollum had the freedom to roam far and wide inside his dark mountain causing terror amongst its inhabitants. They knew that something was there but they could not see it.

Now at his loss Sméagol/Gollum attempts to fit the pieces together, 'where was it? who took it.

In this image, I think Sméagol is manipulating his past, putting together a pattern for his benefit at the expense of Frodo and Sam. "Not this time precious, Oh no"! Not the Deagol way, we will lead them up the path to Shelob.

2. According to the commentaries Fran Walsh deliberately directed this scene with the actors behaving in a slightly childlike manner. Why do you suppose she would do that? BTW, do you see anything distinctive about Fran's directing style?

Like was sweet for these characters, not a care in the world nothing unnatural ever reached their neck of the woods, that is until the ring was found.

3. Do you think Smeagol and Deagol were as firm friends as Frodo and Sam? How does this scene foreshadow the coming rocky ROTK relationship between Frodo and Sam? Why does the friendship of Frodo and Sam not end as tragically as that of Smeagol and Deagol? Could it have?

Sméagol and Deagol were friends but not solid friends. Sméagol, Deagol and the ring. The sudden reappearance of the ring creates a situation that was sudden and swift and at the end of it all Sméagol did not give a hoot what he did to Deagol.

Frodo, Sam, Gollum and the ring.

Frodo-the pig in the middle surrounding by two negatives and one positive.

1 Gollum a thorn in the side for Sam
2 The Ring-a thorn in the side for Sam
3 Sam a faithful and trusted friend to Frodo and a thorn in the side to Gollum and the ring. A lone voice
crying in the wilderness.

Why does their friendship not end as tragically as Sméagol and Deagol? Good influences make for good and longlasting friendships and parternerships, Gandalf, Bilbo,The Gaffer and the Shire.

4. Why a boat?

Good way to fit the ring into how its finding came about.




Loresilme
Valinor


Jul 6 2013, 1:51pm

Post #5 of 7 (339 views)
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Smeagol / Deagol [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Later in the sequence it becomes apparent that this is Smeagol remembering the past. Do you think he is a reliable narrator? If not, what particulars do you think he’s changed? Why?
In looking through the caps in the screencap library, it reminded me that in this version of what happened - i.e., in Smeagol's version - Deagol attempts to strangle Smeagol first. Yes, Smeagol has tried to take the Ring from Deagol first, and they've already come to physical blows over it, but here, Deagol is the first one to cross the line and become murderous over it. So.... hmm, did that really happen, or is that the way Smeagol wants to remember it happened?

2. According to the commentaries Fran Walsh deliberately directed this scene with the actors behaving in a slightly childlike manner. Why do you suppose she would do that? BTW, do you see anything distinctive about Fran's directing style?
Perhaps because it gives us that hobbity-ish atmosphere? Since there's no context, these look like and could be just two 'men' sitting in a boat. Maybe the childishness of their behavior seems more 'little folk', more hobbity. Also the childlike manner magnifies the sudden entrance of evil into their world and makes it more horrifying.

3. Do you think Smeagol and Deagol were as firm friends as Frodo and Sam? How does this scene foreshadow the coming rocky ROTK relationship between Frodo and Sam? Why does the friendship of Frodo and Sam not end as tragically as that of Smeagol and Deagol? Could it have?
I think very few people are as firm friends as Frodo and Sam, lol!
But - IMO - Frodo and Sam's friendship did not end tragically mostly due to Sam's character, and his being one of the very few people who were more or less immune to the Ring. Gandalf chose Sam to accompany Frodo because he knew Sam was loyal to Frodo, but in addition he probably could sense that he wouldn't be pulled (much) by the Ring.
Also, I felt there is always an element of inequality in their friendship, at least in Sam's eyes, as he refers to Frodo as 'master' and 'Mr. Frodo'. And I noticed that in this version of Deagol / Smeagol story, Smeagol asks for the Ring and Deagol says "Why?". I can't imagine Sam refusing Frodo anything, or even asking "Why?".

4. Why a boat?
To reference Frodo's statement, "
Gandalf told me you were one of the River Folk."

5. Any other comments?
It seems that Smeagol is given a very sickly, exceedingly pale look. I wonder if the backstory the film makers thought of for this scene might be something like, Smeagol has been sick for a while, and now his birthday has come, so his friend/(cousin?) Deagol takes him out for a little fishing trip, to get him some air and some sun :-).





Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 7 2013, 3:57am

Post #6 of 7 (352 views)
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Freinds [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe they were most likely cousins, possibly brothers.
They were very close, as close as Merry and Pippin at least.

Even Frodo succumbed to the Ring turned on Sam in the end before Gollum bit off his finger and fell destroying it.
Smeagol, while not stupid, was not the same quality/caliber of person Frodo was and was more easily allured to its affect.
Plus Frodo knew of its danger and consequences which would stem from it, Gollum did not. Gollum killed his freind and kinsman because of it in spite of their closeness, even though it galled him and led to his mental state which was reiforced by his forced exile and isolation ... so long as he had the ring.

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



Rostron2
Gondor


Jul 8 2013, 10:58pm

Post #7 of 7 (322 views)
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On a boat! [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Later in the sequence it becomes apparent that this is Smeagol remembering the past. Do you think he is a reliable narrator? If not, what particulars do you think he’s changed? Why?

It's certainly the memory that is closest to the truth. Perhaps it's a way to show that Smeagol is still there, even though by this point, Gollum has somewhat taken of direction of the expedition.


2. According to the commentaries Fran Walsh deliberately directed this scene with the actors behaving in a slightly childlike manner. Why do you suppose she would do that? BTW, do you see anything distinctive about Fran's directing style?

They are obviously young hobbits that aren't very mature, enter the Ring of Power and suddenly you have someone easily seduced by it. However, also as described in the books, he's ultimately not much of a servant for Sauron, except as a spy and a sneak. Fran sees these boys as children in grown-up bodies.

3. Do you think Smeagol and Deagol were as firm friends as Frodo and Sam? How does this scene foreshadow the coming rocky ROTK relationship between Frodo and Sam? Why does the friendship of Frodo and Sam not end as tragically as that of Smeagol and Deagol? Could it have?

No, they were probably more like fishing buddies, and more mischievous, which led to their undoing. Plus Smeagol must have always been a bit touched in the head to start. However, Frodo and Sam had the benefit of being from a much more civilized culture, and their moral compass was more fixed. It might have led to something like this, but as the book proves out, they were pretty strong individuals.

4. Why a boat? Mostly a reminder of where the Ring was lost, and that his folk lived there.

5. Any other comments? I like what was said above about Smeagol already being pale and sickly looking. Maybe he was always that way in the tribe, and envied the more robust hobbits, in the same way a bullied kid plots revenge against his antagonists.


 
 

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