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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Number one ridiculous problem with AUJ to me
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Chopsta123
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 9:57am

Post #51 of 198 (625 views)
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This is how LOTR is unrealistic [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[..] This is the polar opposite of LOTR. Gimli had to be tossed over a 10 foot gap at Helms Deep, [..]

Dwarves can easily make a 10 ft jump in real life ;D :)))))


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 9:57am

Post #52 of 198 (590 views)
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I didn't forget it was a fantasy! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
because it is. But one thing to remember is that its a fantasy movie and not a documentary. They want it to be ridiculous. When has Fantasy ever followed the rules of physics 100% of the time?
People see those films to dive into a different world. The same goes with explosions in literally every action movie. They are totally unrealistic but people want to see them because it simply doenst happen in real life.


I disagree that they want it to be ridiculous though. I see these films to dive SPECIFICALLY into the Middle Earth I have come to know in movies. Again, I know it is a fantasy but I have said that I'm coming from a different angle. From a more fun(IMO) and analytic view we can make conclusions about if it was possible that the dwarfs could survive.


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 10:01am

Post #53 of 198 (611 views)
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His point was the comparison of the two I think [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
[..] This is the polar opposite of LOTR. Gimli had to be tossed over a 10 foot gap at Helms Deep, [..]

Dwarves can easily make a 10 ft jump in real life ;D :)))))


Why can dwarves in The Hobbit make/survive jumps that dwarves in LOTR can't?

It's all fantasy so what's the deal with the sudden disregard for dwarf physics i AUJ??


Chopsta123
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 10:07am

Post #54 of 198 (588 views)
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The above post was meant in a funny way. [In reply to] Can't Post

But Gimli also has some questionable scenes tho. For example when he jumps into a sea of orc spears that could have easily killed him. I always cringe at that scene.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 10:26am

Post #55 of 198 (619 views)
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Polar opposites [In reply to] Can't Post

As many of you know, I've been writing a set of articles on "The Physics of The Hobbit"; they will be included in the forthcoming Summer Symposium. I have to disagree with the view that LOTR followed the normal laws of physics, while "The Hobbit" does not. Here are three examples:

1. Gandalf's fall with the Balrog. In order to catch Gandalf, the Balrog's whip would need to have been 400 to 700 meters long (depending on air resistance), between a quarter and half a mile. To be able to catch up to the Balrog as he did, Gandalf would have needed to be able to move at speeds approaching that of a commercial aircraft.

2. Legolas at Helm's Deep. After the Shield Surf, during which he (God knows how) manages to fire arrows, Legolas simply hops off the shield at the bottom of the stairs. His inertia should have thrown him forward a considerable distance.

3. Uruk-hai at Helm's Deep. Two Uruk-hai carry a siege ladder that reaches all the way to the top of the wall, and there's another Uruk-hai on top of the ladder. Right. They'd both have to be able to lift about 15 times as much weight as a human.

I also just didn't see the three examples you used from the DOS trailer; they all seem exaggerated. Thrain jumps down on Gandalf. Why would he need to be Spiderman just to do that? Bombur's barrel looked to be much more like 10-15 feet in the air and traveling in a normal parabolic arc of a projectile, not "50 feet in the air". And why could Thorin not swing a sword from inside a floating barrel? They aren't in the swift rapids at that point.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 10:34am

Post #56 of 198 (601 views)
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Could you, or anyone you know do any of those things in real life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Anything Gandalf does is easily explainable...he is a wizard.

Anything Legolas does is also explainable...he is an Elf, who obviously has skills that are beyond what a normal person could do.

But, in The Hobbit, EVERY character can apparently survive nearly anything. It's just blatantly ridiculous. It's an example of how the film industry has absolutley no restraint right now. Everyone wants everything to be bigger and better...no matter what.

These are Fantasy films, so trying to defend them with real world physics is pointless. However, there is a line that is better not crossed. I believe LOTR did not cross that line, while AUJ did in spades.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

(This post was edited by jtarkey on Jul 6 2013, 10:43am)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 10:48am

Post #57 of 198 (614 views)
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I seriously doubt that anyone would [In reply to] Can't Post

survive the Stone Giants assault, even on a ledge. The vast weight of hundreds of tons of rock smashing together under impact would surely create high velocity shrapnel, shards, fragments that could rip you to shreds. even a small rock the size of an egg could kill them. it would like being near a land mine. Therefore even if by some miracle they avoided being smashed to pulp by a direct hit, the shrapnel would surely get them?


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 6 2013, 10:57am

Post #58 of 198 (592 views)
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Thing is, you asked why this 'ridiculous scene' [In reply to] Can't Post

That's why. It's about showing up the kind of leader Thorin is.

Even on the physics alone opinions here are divided, so I still don't buy the 'ridiculous' as an absolute. I'm not a physicist, so I can't join in that one, just observe from the sidelines..... Wink

As for being extreme, well yes, it is. It's a very heightened, dramatic (and characteristically Jackson) presentation of something that is in the book. It's what he does. Being used to that now I'm just inclined to take it as it comes. It's exciting to watch. And it works for me, in terms of making the point about Thorin, which I'm sure is what's intended, very well indeed.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 11:11am

Post #59 of 198 (599 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

People have ridden an open barrel down a set of the world's most dangerous rapids, beginning with Graham Carlisle, who did it in 1886 at Whirlpool Rapids, Niagara Falls, in an oak barrel similar to the ones the Dwarves will steal in DOS.

Based on the distance the Dwarves moved when the stone giant fell against the mountain (estimated 50 meters) and the time it took (about 3 seconds), they would have been thrown against the mountain at a speed of about 40 miles per hour. I once drove my motorcycle straight into a black Toyota SUV hidden in some shadows, speed 40 mph, no brakes at all. I had nothing more than a few bruises.

My brother loved to do the Thrain stunt when he was a little kid and Dwarf-size. He loved to climb trees and fall out or jump on people. You have to realize that a person half as tall as a normal human, and having the same shape, weighs 8 times less, not just half as much, because mass scales as the third power (cube) of linear dimension. This is why little kids don't get hurt from falls that would badly injure an adult.

I'll be posting "The Physics of The Hobbit" soon, so maybe we can discuss it further after that.

,

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Noria
Rohan

Jul 6 2013, 12:22pm

Post #60 of 198 (524 views)
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Totally agree Dormouse [In reply to] Can't Post

I know nothing of physics but Dwellers analysis seems logical to me. Also, the scene was yet another of PJs faux death scenes and was carefully crafted to make it look as if the Dwarves were smashed between the rocks but we, like Thorin, did not see what actually happened.

In FotR, the Fellowship was able to hang onto a ledge when an avalanche swept over them I dont see much difference.

Then there is Gollum, with his titanium hide that allows him to be knocked down and dragged over rocks without getting a scratch on his bare skin in TTT.

I have always understood from the books that the Dwarves, from the time of their creation by Aul, were tougher than the other mortal races.

The Stone Giants scene is not my favourite but I do love the look and sound of it. I too think that the scene is about Thorin.

What bothers me more is that Thorin calls out "Kili" though Kili is with him and its Fili at risk, unless I am mistaken.Wink

I look forward to Dweller's articles.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Jul 6 2013, 1:31pm

Post #61 of 198 (544 views)
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The polar opposite of LOTR? I don't think so. [In reply to] Can't Post

In LOTR, the Fellowship leap over the bridge in the Mines of Moria, something humans at least would not have survived; Gandalf and the (human) Rohirrim gallop down a near-vertical surface and survive; Frodo and Sam survive prolonged exposure to the heart of a volcano; Aragorn, Gimli and zombie eyes fall from a great height at Helm's Deep and miraculously survive, while none of the accompanying Elves does; an obviously CGI figure miraculously leaps onto the back of an Oliphaunt and kills it, etc., etc.

But some people just close their eyes to the above, no doubt expecting a documentary rather than a fantasy and wishing The Hobbit to fail (for some reason). In fantasy worlds, events very frequently do not follow any 'laws'. If it bothers some people so much and if they can't suspend disbelief, then the films are probably not for them.


In Reply To
PJ has obviously opted to turn The Hobbit into an action extravaganza that has total disregard for real world physics. This is the polar opposite of LOTR. Gimli had to be tossed over a 10 foot gap at Helms Deep, yet all the dwarves in The Hobbit seem like they could easily land a job with Cirque Du Soleil...



(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jul 6 2013, 1:36pm)


The Grey Elf
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 2:12pm

Post #62 of 198 (553 views)
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AUJ is not unique in cinema [In reply to] Can't Post

For imperiling its characters in ways that strain credulity. I believe that's called dramatic license? This scene may, however, be unique in how much it's been dissected. We all want Middle Earth to be realistic -- the greater the thrill for us -- but you can only drill down so far before the seams of its fabrication become obvious.

So I'm inclined to say ... chill. It's just a movie. Wink


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 2:59pm

Post #63 of 198 (532 views)
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Not so much stone giants as GOBlin Town, but [In reply to] Can't Post

over at the hall of fire , a member described quite accurately, why, among other things, that whole scene looks and feels ridiculous:


"Easily-dispatched DIGITAL enemies and invincible DIGITAL heroes: You make a good point about invincibility and hapless adversaries being a movie trope from the sci-fi serials, and most famously, in Star Wars. However, though silly, the actors and adversaries were real people in costume, which made it all seem to have some basis in reality, however cheesy. The reason G-town feels videogamish is that those tropes are combined with a nearly all-digital cast of characters and environment. Put the tropes and the digitalia together, and you get something very similar to an action-adventure video game. Aragorn and Legolas were often invincible in LOTR, but I never really felt it was videogamish because they, and the environments they were in, seemed real and non-gamey.

Linearity and consequence-less movement: Though Goblintown has some depth, the company simply runs and runs until they get to the exit. How in the world did they know where they were going? Simple. It's a level in the video game, and the only way to go is to the right! Not all games are linear (see MMOs and many RPGs) but many are.

This is part of the consequeless aesthetic. It doesn't matter where you run, you will get to the exit. Just as it doesn't matter how may goblins come at you, you will beat them and escape! Oh, and all that in a digital space."


"Goblintown, on the otherhand, with its multi-level wooden bridges, convenient "tools," such poles and ladders that serve as goblin repellants, and digitally swinging bridges to be "activated" by our heroes, is organized like a puzzle dungeon from a video game, and the characters interact in it in a video gamish fashion. Bombur even reverse-Marios down through the multi-level digital bridge environment to get down to his companion avatars' level"

The directing and style behind the stone giants is similar : its as if jackson is playing a video game with his computers, rather than depicting what Tolkien wrote. Hes got much more freedom now, to go completely over the top and indulgent, the restrictions and hazards of filming lotr are gone, so his worst, juvenile tendencies are exacerbated.

Me, i just skip the giants scene if i were you Wink

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Jul 6 2013, 3:01pm)


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 6 2013, 3:09pm

Post #64 of 198 (553 views)
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Spot on, jtarkey! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I feel most people here adore PJ and AUJ. So it's probably an illusion of sorts. If you like the film, you notice the people who don't like it and vice versa...



It's all in one's perspective and *thankfully* we all have different ones here, which makes our conversations that much more interesting.

We've been discussing this very thing in the 'our halls' sticky at the top of this forum. I highly recommend people read Silverlode's excellent points here. There are some people who are actually avoiding this forum because they perceive there's too much negativity, and some who avoid it because they perceive there's an overwhelming bias towards liking the movies. As I said in that thread, I think it's a good sign that people notice both POVs here. It means the conversation is *balanced*, not *biased.* Smile

Here's to continued healthy and respectful discussion of all POVs.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Elenorflower
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 3:17pm

Post #65 of 198 (490 views)
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that the most accurate description of [In reply to] Can't Post

Goblin Town yet. its true, and for that reason I didnt 'feel' anything for the Dwarves, I wasnt scared for them. I remember Moria, Aragorn and the others on the bridge. I know that scene gets a lot of flack from 'purists' as being ott spectacle, and yes it was, but fantastic thrilling spectacle, that had me on the end of my seat. When Aragorn and Frodo make the last jump i actually subconsciously jump with them. It feels real and the danger feels imminent, I get a sense of vertigo when I watch the Bridge scene in Moria. when i watch the GTown scenes I dont get a feeling of vertigo although its full of precipices and hundred foot drops. Its because its a video game.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 6 2013, 3:22pm

Post #66 of 198 (585 views)
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No need to keep score ;-) (general comments) [In reply to] Can't Post

On any given day there could also be several 'what do you love most' threads, but that doesn't mean they dominate the forum any more than two perceived 'negative' threads do. Conversations ebb and flow here on any give day and we get lots of different perspectives - this is a *good* thing.

It's great to have a spirited debate, but we all need to remember that all people are doing are expressing their opinions here, and opinions can't be right or wrong - just different. They may not match one's own opinion exactly (how boring would the conversation be then?), but that's no reason to let them frustrate us. There are always a number of other threads, on this board and others, to join in on (or start) if we find our blood pressure going up. Smile

Re-posting a link to Silverlode's comments in the 'our halls' sticky at the top of this forum. A highly recommended read.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 3:34pm

Post #67 of 198 (473 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

it is. Very well said.


Having an environment and the dwarves and orcs behave and react as if its all a super mario video game, is hardly appropriate for the establishment of a world that we want to feel is part of the distant and historical past.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Jul 6 2013, 3:35pm)


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jul 6 2013, 3:38pm

Post #68 of 198 (493 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post

The goblins remind me a lot of the battle droids in the Star Wars prequel trilogy. They pose no real threat to the main characters and are easily dispatched. To quote George Lucas, our heroes "cut 'em down like they're butter." There's no danger to the entire sequence. Looks like Jackson decided to turn the "god-mode" cheat on.

http://youtubedoubler.com/8Zmn


Soundchaser
The Shire

Jul 6 2013, 4:36pm

Post #69 of 198 (477 views)
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Sounds interesting but [In reply to] Can't Post

everything I need to know about physics I learned from the Roadrunner cartoons. Smile


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 4:46pm

Post #70 of 198 (441 views)
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This is a fact [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But Gimli also has some questionable scenes tho. For example when he jumps into a sea of orc spears that could have easily killed him. I always cringe at that scene.


Dwarves these days am I right?
Crazy


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jul 6 2013, 4:57pm

Post #71 of 198 (462 views)
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Don't forget this movie is Bilbo's RETELLING his story to Frodo...there will be PLENTY of over-the-top embellishments along the way // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 6 2013, 5:01pm

Post #72 of 198 (444 views)
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VERY much looking forward to the discussion! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I'll be posting "The Physics of The Hobbit" soon, so maybe we can discuss it further after that.


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Werde Spinner
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 5:43pm

Post #73 of 198 (506 views)
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It took me a long time to figure out the stone giants scene. [In reply to] Can't Post

I had the hardest time trying to figure out who was on what leg of the giant. It also took me forever to realize that the leg with Bibo and Bofur on it (who can forget Bofur's look of absolute terror? I've seen it with the caption: "When something pops out of the toaster". Wink) was the one that 'smashed' into the mountain, and that that was how Bilbo ended up dangling off the side. Thorin mixing up Fili and Kili never bothered me, as I know just how much siblings get mixed up in real life, even if they look nothing alike; besides, Thorin confuses them in the book. Wink

As for the physics itself of the scene, I've learned to not let these things bother me too much. What actually really annoys me is watching a Marvel superhero movie and they smash through glass or get showered with broken glass and no one gets the smallest cut. You'd think the glass was made out of crystallized sugar or something. My friends and I did a Marvel marathon and had fun playing a game of pointing out stuff that didn't make sense and triumphantly yelling, "Movie logic!!' at the screen. It was great fun. A handful of popcorn was eaten for each ridiculous stunt. I suggest playing a similar game to people who have issues with AUJ as a way of working out their disgruntlement. It is usually best to deal with such frustration in a positive manner - am I right? Laugh

How I see the stone giants scene is like this: The dwarves are on the ledge. The ledge is below the knee of the stone giant - it is on its shin, so to speak. As the giant falls, its knees angle towards the mountain. The knees hit the mountain, crushing them and sending a lot of stone flying, etc. The giant falls down into the valley. However, the dwarves were not on the knees, but rather on the giant's shin. Considering the height of the stone giant, they may have been some distance away from the actual spot of impact and thus were spared some or most of the flying debris. Also, their ledge did not actually smash into the mountain, although it came perilously close, since it was the knees that hit first. Since the shin of the giant did not hit the ledge, it stopped some distance away from it. However, the dwarves still had momentum from the moving giant, as you still have momentum in a car wreck even after the car has been halted by the other car/obstacle you have crashed with, and said momentum may send you flying through the windshield if you are not wearing your seatbelt. The dwarves are not wearing seatbelts, obviously, and so their momentum throws them off the ledge. Fortunately for them, there is a convenient ledge on the mountain for them to land on - this is excusable to me, since that ledge was a continuation of the path they had been on and should have been at roughly the same elevation as the ledge on the stone giant before the giants 'came to life'. Fortunately, the dwarves have just enough momentum to land on this ledge in a tangled heap and not too much momentum, which would have smashed them against the mountain. Bilbo, however, being lighter than the dwarves, has less momentum and was not thrown far enough; hence, he is dangling from the edge of the ledge. You'd think he would call for help or something before Bofur started looking for him. Maybe he was too startled at his predicament, or maybe no one could hear him in the chaos. Who knows??

You are free to take my explanation of this scene with a grain of salt, however. I do not pretend to be a physics major (chemistry for me, thank you very much, although I aspire to chemical engineering someday), but I do like physics and so I hope this explanation is not totally irrational.

As for the giants themselves and how they 'come to life', I actually really like the explanation my movie-only cousin came up with. He assumed the giants came to life when lightning struck the mountains. Lightning can do everything, you know? Wink Seeing as how Gandalf uses lightning to kill the Balrog and, who knows. this might have been a storm incited by the Necromancer (they discuss Sauron's ability to spark a snowstorm on Caradhras in the book, don't they?) to prevent any Elf spies or somebody from coming over the pass to investigate him in Mirkwood. Dunno, just a possibility. You'd think there'd be more discussion as to how the stone giants come to life, but I haven't seen any discussion on that. So feel free to accept or condemn the lightning explanation for that.

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 5:46pm

Post #74 of 198 (432 views)
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again.. [In reply to] Can't Post

nothing in AUJ or DOS is anymore outlandish than some scenes in FOTR, TTT or ROTK. Bombur didn't fly 50 feet, Thrain could have "undead powers" and why couldn't you swing a sword at someone if your in a barrel?


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 5:59pm

Post #75 of 198 (468 views)
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BUTTTT! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hulk, Iron Man, Thor and Captain America can all easily shrug off some glass. We expect them to! The Hulk busts through buildings and Thor flies! At least we know going in that they are superheroes. In AUJ we learn that the dwarves are also a little super as well but we didn't and shouldn't expect them to be. Big difference between a block buster comic book movie and a novel adaptation featuring average dwarves!

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