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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Number one ridiculous problem with AUJ to me
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The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 12:31am

Post #1 of 198 (3725 views)
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The Number one ridiculous problem with AUJ to me Can't Post

I'm here at home watching the Hobbit again on this fantastic 4th of July weekend and one scene still is just so ridiculous to me! What is the deal with the stone giants scene part where it appears Bilbo and co are smashed to bits?? The camera angles they show in the scene show clearly to me that it is impossible anyone would survive. I realize "it's a fantasy" and other like statements on this board but how on earth could they survive? The other over the top scenes have been given interesting and somewhat scientific defenses but this one really can't be explained away. How can Bombur's fat self not be utterly smushed? Why did they even put that rock on rock smashing scene in there? The weight of one stone giant falling would have turned any character into nothing. What is the cinematic purpose of something like this? I have defended other OTT scenes and big canon changes but this one part is just dumb/unnecessary to me!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 1:19am

Post #2 of 198 (1694 views)
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why all the recent hate here for AUJ? [In reply to] Can't Post

i'm not trying to be offensive to the posters or personally attacking them but to me its getting kinda silly, they are entitled to their opinions but it seems a lot more users in this forum hate AUJ than like it or maybe the ones that liked the film are afraid to reply. The stone giants scene was one of my favorite parts in the film, the sequence was better done in the film than it was in the book, much more epic.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Jul 6 2013, 1:20am)


Elutherian
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 1:22am

Post #3 of 198 (1389 views)
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There's definitely a ledge... [In reply to] Can't Post

... on the leg, and the mountain.

They were able to land on the mountain ledge, while the ledge on the Stone Giants leg didn't allow the rock to smash them.

The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 2:07am

Post #4 of 198 (1585 views)
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It's the opposite to me...funny world we live in [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel most people here adore PJ and AUJ. So it's probably an illusion of sorts. If you like the film, you notice the people who don't like it and vice versa...

I agree with the OP. Although I feel most of the action scenes in AUJ cross the line of suspension of disbelief.

I don't think AUJ is a bad film. But I don't think it's an exceptional one either.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Nira
Lorien


Jul 6 2013, 2:38am

Post #5 of 198 (1323 views)
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ledges... [In reply to] Can't Post

They were on a ledge that hit the other mountain ledge perfectly. They then ran or jumped onto this second ledge. Thorin and the others were viewing this at an angle that made it appear as if the others were crushed.

"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?" -Samwise


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 2:54am

Post #6 of 198 (1310 views)
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That's the problem though... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Fellowship had trouble crossing a 10 foot gap in a broken stair case.

Any character in AUJ can leap from hundreds of feet, be crushed by monstrous giants, and pull off choreographed fight scenes in the midst of intense danger...

Of course it all happens "perfectly"...

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 3:05am

Post #7 of 198 (1318 views)
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Hmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i'm not trying to be offensive to the posters or personally attacking them but to me its getting kinda silly, they are entitled to their opinions but it seems a lot more users in this forum hate AUJ than like it or maybe the ones that liked the film are afraid to reply. The stone giants scene was one of my favorite parts in the film, the sequence was better done in the film than it was in the book, much more epic.


My position towards things such as Azog, Radagast etc etc. prove that I am a big fan of the film and PJ. This isn't a nagging whiny post from me. I love the stone giants portrayal and it is this one little part that throws me off. When you watch the movie it seems so unbelievable from a physics standpoint whereas the Goblin bridge and others can be defended. The knee of the stone giant (which weighs God knows how much!) impacts and then grinds downwards toward the side of the mountain. I don't care if there was a ledge their or not. In the rest of the scene the giants wipe out rock like it is water. So why are our characters so lucky as to not get one scratch? It is a legitimate question I have and is not to be labeled as anti-AUJ or anti-Peter Jackson propaganda.


(This post was edited by The Mitch King on Jul 6 2013, 3:08am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 3:22am

Post #8 of 198 (1445 views)
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that might be true about the users on this forum but.. [In reply to] Can't Post

there was just a post yesterday on this same forum that was complaining about the film. That's two threads in two days, i sure haven't seen two positive posts about AUJ. So you say the action scenes cross the line in suspension of disbelief? Ok...So how are any of the action scenes in AUJ more over-the-top than FOTR or TTT or ROTK? in FOTR you have a huge fire demon battling a wizard who somehow manages to defend himself from a gigantic sword and fire whip both of which come crashing down on him with a old wooden staff? In TTT you have talking trees which manage to destroy a citadel. In ROTK you have a invincible ghost army...Come on now.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 3:23am

Post #9 of 198 (1338 views)
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There was no "Stone Giants sequence" in the book... [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a few pieces of dialogue and that's it.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 3:26am

Post #10 of 198 (1403 views)
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Come on now... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf is a WIZARD, the ghost army are GHOSTS.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 3:30am

Post #11 of 198 (1337 views)
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and.... [In reply to] Can't Post

what are your gripes in AUJ action scenes being over-the-top?


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Jul 6 2013, 3:31am)


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 3:33am

Post #12 of 198 (1491 views)
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Physics, and the description of scenes growing in the telling [In reply to] Can't Post

I've just finished writing the first of several articles on "the Physics of The Hobbit", wherein I've done a full analysis (at the request of a number of TORn members and moderators) of scenes such as "Goblin Town". The first article should be posted soon. I should also reiterate that I've no interest in trying to "defend" Peter Jackson or anyone else, but rather find the physical analysis interesting, and thus have done my best to be unbiased.

In regard to "Stone Giants": this is the second or third post that assumes that the half of the party that get stranded on one of the giants should have been smashed when that giant fell against the mountain. Running the scene again, however, I just don't see anything like that happening. The film definitely makes you think that might have happened; because of the "around the corner" angle, we (and Thorin, Fili, Bilbo and the other Dwarves who were not on the giant) also think that the others might have been smashed. When they round the corner, however, they see that there was a ledge the others were able to hop onto or were just dumped onto when the giant impacted the mountain.

Personally I was not a big fan of the Stone Giants scene; I recognized that the sequence was mainly inserted to have Bilbo need to be rescued by Thorin, and Thorin telling the others that Bilbo did not belong in the company, thus setting up Bilbo's decision to leave the Company and the ending where Thorin changes his mind about Bilbo. They could have done that without a "Perils of Pauline" action scene. But I think that the description of this scene should not be allowed to grow in the telling, as has happened with "Goblin Town".

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Escapist
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 3:37am

Post #13 of 198 (1347 views)
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Went to find my book ... *BOOK SPOILER* [In reply to] Can't Post

p68:
"This won't do at all! said Thorin, "If we don't get blown off, or drowned, or struck by lightning we shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football."


Before that line from Thorin, there was a detailed bit about a thunderstorm and stone giants "hurling rocks at each other for a game" and rocks "splintering into bits with a bang" and "smashed among the trees far below" and "overhanging rock offered no protection at all (against wind and rain and such)".

I'm not saying this didn't get stretched a bit, but its not like there wasn't a sequence in the book - there totally was! And it is a lot like what they showed in the movie - but the movie did kick it up a notch.


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 3:57am

Post #14 of 198 (1232 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've just finished writing the first of several articles on "the Physics of The Hobbit", wherein I've done a full analysis (at the request of a number of TORn members and moderators) of scenes such as "Goblin Town". The first article should be posted soon. I should also reiterate that I've no interest in trying to "defend" Peter Jackson or anyone else, but rather find the physical analysis interesting, and thus have done my best to be unbiased.

In regard to "Stone Giants": this is the second or third post that assumes that the half of the party that get stranded on one of the giants should have been smashed when that giant fell against the mountain. Running the scene again, however, I just don't see anything like that happening. The film definitely makes you think that might have happened; because of the "around the corner" angle, we (and Thorin, Fili, Bilbo and the other Dwarves who were not on the giant) also think that the others might have been smashed. When they round the corner, however, they see that there was a ledge the others were able to hop onto or were just dumped onto when the giant impacted the mountain.

Personally I was not a big fan of the Stone Giants scene; I recognized that the sequence was mainly inserted to have Bilbo need to be rescued by Thorin, and Thorin telling the others that Bilbo did not belong in the company, thus setting up Bilbo's decision to leave the Company and the ending where Thorin changes his mind about Bilbo. They could have done that without a "Perils of Pauline" action scene. But I think that the description of this scene should not be allowed to grow in the telling, as has happened with "Goblin Town".


It makes us THINK that because it shows the knee of an incredibly huge/heavy stone giant crushing the whole side of the mountain. The reason everyone thinks it was incredible is probably because it was! One large stone broke the path they were on in the scene but that colossal stone giant collision, which was probably thousands of times more powerful, just happened to not touch the small path? How fortunate! I know the characters can't die at this point but why the heck do you insert an unnecessary scene like that?? The Bilbo/Thorin scene happens before the giants right? So why the ridiculous scene?(I realize no one can possibly know intentions here)


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 4:01am

Post #15 of 198 (1312 views)
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Hmmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

Stone Giants, Troll Fight, Goblin Town escape, Out of the frying pan sequence....

I can't really say more, except for this...

Compare the Goblin Town escape to the battle of Amon Hen. That says it all for me.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 4:03am

Post #16 of 198 (1372 views)
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It's not the action scenes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
there was just a post yesterday on this same forum that was complaining about the film. That's two threads in two days, i sure haven't seen two positive posts about AUJ. So you say the action scenes cross the line in suspension of disbelief? Ok...So how are any of the action scenes in AUJ more over-the-top than FOTR or TTT or ROTK? in FOTR you have a huge fire demon battling a wizard who somehow manages to defend himself from a gigantic sword and fire whip both of which come crashing down on him with a old wooden staff? In TTT you have talking trees which manage to destroy a citadel. In ROTK you have a invincible ghost army...Come on now.


It is the physical limitations of a non magical body that is the issue. I have a problem with Aragorn falling in TTT and with the Dwarves getting crushed by a giant. It's funny how both are not in the books though isn't it? Tolkien never threw his characters hundreds of feet right? I just finished reading LOTR again and nothing of the sort happens!


jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 4:09am

Post #17 of 198 (1297 views)
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Exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post

LOTR isn't sacred. Aragorns fall was certainly a little over the top.

But at least you didn't witness him bouncing off rocks like a pinball.

And any OTT sequence in LOTR was mostly given to Legolas...because he's an awesome elf and it makes sense.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 4:18am

Post #18 of 198 (1224 views)
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No, Thorin and Bilbo happened directly afterward [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It makes us THINK that because it shows the knee of an incredibly huge/heavy stone giant crushing the whole side of the mountain. The reason everyone thinks it was incredible is probably because it was! One large stone broke the path they were on in the scene but that colossal stone giant collision, which was probably thousands of times more powerful, just happened to not touch the small path? How fortunate! I know the characters can't die at this point but why the heck do you insert an unnecessary scene like that?? The Bilbo/Thorin scene happens before the giants right? So why the ridiculous scene?(I realize no one can possibly know intentions here)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Bilbo and Thorin's interaction happens right afterward. Bofur notices Bilbo is missing; we then see Bilbo hanging from the ledge, and eventually Thorin has to save him. All this happens just after the Stone Giants (the collision causes Bilbo to lose his balance and nearly fall off the ledge.)

I think you may be misunderstanding the physics a bit here- the mass of the mountain / stone giants would not matter very much; the important point was the shapes of the mountain and the ledges on the giant and the mountain. If two things with irregular shapes fall against each other, only the surfaces that contact would be crushed together. The stone giant had a ledge on him where the half of the party stood; when he fell against the mountain they were also at a level where there was a ledge. This wouldn't be as much of a contrived coincidence as it sounds, because the ledge on the giant was part of the mountain path to begin with, so it makes sense they would be at about the same level.

So yeah, it wasn't really a necessary scene, and things were set up in a fortunate way for our heroes, but I don't see it breaking the laws of physics.


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 4:58am

Post #19 of 198 (1207 views)
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My bad on Thorin and Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
It makes us THINK that because it shows the knee of an incredibly huge/heavy stone giant crushing the whole side of the mountain. The reason everyone thinks it was incredible is probably because it was! One large stone broke the path they were on in the scene but that colossal stone giant collision, which was probably thousands of times more powerful, just happened to not touch the small path? How fortunate! I know the characters can't die at this point but why the heck do you insert an unnecessary scene like that?? The Bilbo/Thorin scene happens before the giants right? So why the ridiculous scene?(I realize no one can possibly know intentions here)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Bilbo and Thorin's interaction happens right afterward. Bofur notices Bilbo is missing; we then see Bilbo hanging from the ledge, and eventually Thorin has to save him. All this happens just after the Stone Giants (the collision causes Bilbo to lose his balance and nearly fall off the ledge.)

I think you may be misunderstanding the physics a bit here- the mass of the mountain / stone giants would not matter very much; the important point was the shapes of the mountain and the ledges on the giant and the mountain. If two things with irregular shapes fall against each other, only the surfaces that contact would be crushed together. The stone giant had a ledge on him where the half of the party stood; when he fell against the mountain they were also at a level where there was a ledge. This wouldn't be as much of a contrived coincidence as it sounds, because the ledge on the giant was part of the mountain path to begin with, so it makes sense they would be at about the same level.

So yeah, it wasn't really a necessary scene, and things were set up in a fortunate way for our heroes, but I don't see it breaking the laws of physics.


I am a major in biology and I have a sound understanding of the physics of biological/chemical interactions. I think you are completely off on trying to turn attention to these paths and acting like the mass of the stone giant doesn't affect the impact. The company was facing the mountainside they impacted. The mass alone is enough to say they would have been driven right into the rock and then pulverized. The ledge doesn't suspend the physics of mass in motion! Weta's Hobbit Chronicles part 2 has the height of the giants listed and we can probably make a great lower limit estimation of how much one would weigh since it is made of rock. I'll bet the physics don't support them not being crushed.

Also, if the path is at the same level as you mentioned(which is correct most likely) then they would have been lower than the original ledge as the giant was falling when they crashed. The movie shows them as actually coming to the side of the mountain from a higher angle! How is that possible? I couldn't say but it is not really physics supported at all.


Elessar
Valinor


Jul 6 2013, 5:01am

Post #20 of 198 (1218 views)
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Never thought [In reply to] Can't Post

That scene was a problem. I thought it looked like a area that could smash together and make it out.



DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 5:27am

Post #21 of 198 (1183 views)
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Impact factor [In reply to] Can't Post

From the reply, I should perhaps clarify the way I and others saw the scene, and maybe give an example illustrating the physical principles. The whole idea is that there was no direct impact on the Dwarves, due to the shapes of the giant and the mountain (see the recent comment by Elessar below). Example: if you are standing on the balcony of a massive building and it falls against another much more massive building, you may be crushed to death. However, if you are standing just inside a room, and the building falls such that your room falls against another open room in the second building, then you may be thrown into that second room, and injured if your forward momentum is large enough, but you won't be crushed. That is the significance of the ledges and the corresponding shapes of the giant and the mountain.

The one physical principle I think you may be having some trouble with is the mass of the giant and its relevance. If there was no direct impact on the Dwarves, then the only thing affecting them was their inertia when the giant hit the mountain. Their forward momentum (= mv) would have thrown them against the rocks of the path, but as the stone giant toppled fairly slowly, and the Dwarves don't weigh a lot, we can assume that this wasn't great enough to injure them.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 5:36am

Post #22 of 198 (1155 views)
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Stone giant sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

For me it wasn't so much the physics or unrealistic nature of it, as it is a fantasy movie after all, but more of a "meh" moment. I saw this before in FOTR in Moria and it was like PJ copy catted himself so it was kinda stale for me is all.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 5:47am

Post #23 of 198 (1170 views)
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hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

I am questioning if they could have gotten out of there uninjured. Of course, as you know, the giants weren't really moving slow. It is an illusion of low velocity because of the large scales. The earth seems to not be moving at all but really we are traveling about 67,000 mph through space! To the dwarves it would have been massive amounts of force on them. You raised another point I didn't think of in inertia. I want to get the weights of those dwarves and find out the speed of the giant and really see how fast they are moving! I can't imagine they would come out unharmed or all land on the tiny edge. It is an incredible amount of luck and I realize it's a movie but looking at it from a realistic/fun viewpoint I don't think it works. I would need to see the actual numbers to be convinced and I'm sure if I did see them then my biology would kick in and tell me the injuries would have been huge!

I'm not missing your point about the buildings colliding by the way. It seemed to me though that they were located in a bad spot pushed by immense forces with no hope of survival. That's not a touchy situation it is a mountain hitting a mountain with small sacs of fragile Carbon on them! What is flesh to a rock right?

We might just have to agree to disagree my friend but it is great fun to think about it! Smile


(This post was edited by The Mitch King on Jul 6 2013, 5:49am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 6:07am

Post #24 of 198 (1241 views)
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wait what? lol [In reply to] Can't Post

when did the dwarves fall hundreds of feet as a result of the stone giants?? they fell with one of the stone giants but they were holding on to it while it fell. Please watch the scene again, no dwarf fell a hundred feet and survived.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Jul 6 2013, 6:15am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 6 2013, 6:11am

Post #25 of 198 (1157 views)
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yes, your confusing colliding with falling i'm afraid [In reply to] Can't Post

a stone giant collided with a side of the misty mountains. the dwarves were not crushed because it clearly showed that they survived the collision by falling into a hollowed out side of rock and were spared being crushed to death.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

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