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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
BOMBUR has lines in AUJ!!!! And other discoveries
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Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 5:27am

Post #1 of 27 (1439 views)
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BOMBUR has lines in AUJ!!!! And other discoveries Can't Post

Well, it's official. I watched AUJ with subtitles (in hopes that my 4 year old will get additional reading practice by seeing the words as she hears the dialogue) and during the troll scene, Bombur is credited with two or three lines!

Warning-possible DOS spoilers!

I remember there was a thread quite a while back talking about how not everyone in AUJ had lines and how it seemed to tick a lot of people off that not every dwarf had their moment to shine, but I did a double take and rewatched it three times with subtitles and yes he does!

I watched it on my computer using Windows Media Player (don't know if different "delivery systems" have different subtitles).

So I guess every single dwarf had their "intro" in AUJ after all Smile

So, now that everyone has had a chance to watch AUJ to their heart's content (or for some of us, no amount of watching in the WORLD will fulfill our heart's content Wink), are there any things you missed before that you now notice that improves your enjoyment or lends further depth of understanding to the characters and helps you appreciate the phenomenal attention to detail these actors have shown to getting it right?

For me, watching it with subtitles a few times (I generally HATE subtitles because I have a tendency to spend the entire movie reading and thus miss some of the visual details-I am very much a visual learner) has helped to develop the characters further.

I noticed that when they are "debating" Bilbo's addition to the company (aka arguing), Kili says, "He's just fine." thanks to the subtitles. Kili really seems to have taken Bilbo under his wing- This starts by him being the only dwarf to refer to Bilbo by name (even if he did get it wrong), then he is the only one besides the Deaf Dwarf who thought he was an expert burglar and Gandalf to bet on him joining the company-also thanks to the subtitles, then he sticks up for him when the dwarves don't think he measures up, then he comes to his rescue albeit foolishly by himself with the trolls, then I saw in screencaps from the trailer that Bilbo in the Barrels out of Bond seems to be clinging for dear life (undoubtedly it was for dear life!) to Kili's barrel.

So hearing those subtitles for Kili fleshed out his character more-he is very open to differences, is willing to give Bilbo a chance, and it may even point out his own insecurities-this is his first adventure, he is the youngest of the group (I know the film suggested Ori, and whether or not PJ&co made him the youngest or not, I prefer to go with Kili is like canon and the Great Goblin is just stupid and picked the wrong dwarf), and he is eager to prove himself on the journey and make his uncle proud. So it would be very logical for him to stick up for Bilbo, because he sees them regarding Bilbo with the same or similar things that he may be insecure about in himself.

Subtitles (mostly for background conversation) have also pointed out to me that:

1. Dori is apparently a bad cook
2. Nori teases his brother like crazy.
3. Fili is a great galumphing git when he walks on tables according to Dwalin.
4. I see where familial ties are mentioned- Kili refers to Fili as "brother" during dinner (right after great galumphing git comment), Gloin tells his brother to watch out on stone giants, Balin refers to Dwalin as brother (though I don't need subtitles to recognize that). I cannot think off the top of my head whether Bombur or Bofur mention their brotherhood or Bifur his cousinhood or Balin and Dwalin and Oin and Gloin their cousinship to Thorin, and I know that Fili and Kili's nephew relationship to Thorin isn't supposed to be mentioned til Laketown. But with Thorin directing them personally in battle and the comments he adds onto orders, such as "make sure you stay with them" regarding ponies and the way he directs them specifically in battle but you don't see that much with the other dwarves definitely suggests a parenting figure, and also suggests that he trained them personally. Since he is the King, I cannot imagine him personally training his troops unless they were family. Besides, if you look at them both you see family resemblances-Fili's hair, while golden, is similarly styled to Thorin's- curly, loose but with side braids, and a slight volume atop the middle of his forehead, and similar nose and similar eye color. Kili's coloring and his death glare at the Great Goblin most definitely speaks volumes about how he is related to Thorin, since you see Thorin behind him glaring and they practically look identical! Plus, they are among the tallest dwarves, as are Thorin and Dwalin.

So, though I dislike them, subtitles have given quite a lot of insight into characters.

It's also nice to know that you see new things every time you watch it! Or you see something you have before, but you see it in a new light. That's why, even if they don't match the books, that I love BOTH the movies and books! The movies give you a visual way to experience the books, and the characters become more than just thirteen colored hoods but rather names and personalities you can get to know, and the book inserts details that the movies do not give you, thus completing the world in one's mind and IMO the books and movies complement each other. They don't match, they complement.

You come away from each with something new and insightful each and every time, and it really points to the depth and detail, the sheer and mythical and awe inspiring world that is Middle-earth, and the reason why we all love Tolkien's world so much Cool

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 4 2013, 12:51pm

Post #2 of 27 (658 views)
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Ok? so What... did Bombur Say? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bomby is hard of Hearing,
Nice post BUT,
... Did you forget?


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jul 4 2013, 2:10pm

Post #3 of 27 (658 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

the OP would probably mention the ones that were brought up in this thread. http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=599380#599380

I'll believe that Bombur has dialogue when I see his mouth move and we hear words come out or when he addresses another character in conversation.

Also I'd like to point out that it's rather sad that only through the subtitles can we see characters being "fleshed out." Shouldn't this be the main purpose of the story? To get to know these characters? Why only through background chatter? Instead, the emphasis is on getting to the next action set piece, not the people.


(This post was edited by bungobaggins on Jul 4 2013, 2:15pm)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 4:58pm

Post #4 of 27 (533 views)
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Yes, but this appears to be a deliberate decision... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Also I'd like to point out that it's rather sad that only through the subtitles can we see characters being "fleshed out." Shouldn't this be the main purpose of the story? To get to know these characters? Why only through background chatter? Instead, the emphasis is on getting to the next action set piece, not the people.

:

As I posted before, Boyens says in the Sibley Official Movie Guide to AUJ:



Quote
Clearly writing for so many characters, as individuals and as a Company, was a challenge. "What we didn't want to do", says Philippa, "was overload the film with too much information upfront. When you read Tolkien's books you see that he reveals his characters gradually in the telling of the story so we tried to follow his lead. Rather than panic about having thirteen Dwarves and the audience needing to know all about them, we allowed them to become known to us as they become known to Bilbo."



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jul 4 2013, 6:35pm

Post #5 of 27 (458 views)
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Be that was it may... [In reply to] Can't Post

personally I found it hard to care about the dwarves other than Thorin and Balin when they had so little exposure/development in the first film - any fleshing out which may occur in the next two films not withstanding (as opposed to the nine of members of the Fellowship, on each of whom we had a solid understanding by the time Film 1 was over).

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Noria
Rohan

Jul 4 2013, 8:52pm

Post #6 of 27 (425 views)
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I too have watched AUJ with subtitles [In reply to] Can't Post

 and seen the background dialogue, which I enjoy. I dont remember what Bombur said.

About the lack of development of most of the Dwarves: I think were lucky that we got thirteen Dwarves at all. PJ has said that one of the things that put him off directing The Hobbit was trying to deal with thirteen Dwarves, thirteen Gimlis, until at last they figured out what to do with them.

Before The Hobbit was filmed, on other boards I had read the suggestion, made by genuine Tolkien fans, that the number of Dwarves should be reduced because there were too many to deal with and they couldn't all be developed. Rather than have two or three featured Dwarves and ten or so interchangeable Disney dwarfs, cut the number. Those people were not wrong but can you imagine the outrage?

I prefer PJs solution: thirteen Dwarves each with a very distinctive look, each with a back story and a personality which we may never hear about overtly but that informs their performances from dialogue (when they have any Wink) to action. All that Dwarf stuff going on in the background greatly enriches each scene just as the attention to physical detail of the costumes, sets, sound etc. does. Also, en masse they have a group personality which ranges from buffoon to badass and back again depending on the scene and which I find endearing.

There are fifteen characters on the Hobbit quest instead of the nine of FotR, which is more than half as many again. Whilst I dont disagree that more could have been done to flesh some of them out, I felt that I got a sense of what each was about, especially Balin, Dwalin, Bifur, Fili and Kili. Thorin goes without saying.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 4 2013, 9:46pm

Post #7 of 27 (394 views)
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With SubTitles on... [In reply to] Can't Post

Bifur says "Bombur is on his Second Leg of Lamb?"
In BagEnd, at the Start of their Banquet.

Bomby Believes
(How many "B"s are there
in MiddleEarth?)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jul 4 2013, 10:40pm

Post #8 of 27 (393 views)
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And yet we were repeatedly told [In reply to] Can't Post

that each Dwarf was going to be fully realized as opposed to the interchangeable mob in the book.

It wouldn't have taken much effort or time at all to better distinguish the personality of each of the Dwarves. For example, why not have Gloin the merchant/financier notice the treasure in the troll cave first, rather than Bofur; 20 seconds of Dori reprimanding Nori for lifting silverware at Bilbo's house or a goblet at Elrond's table; give Bifur another line or two and a few more "demented" reactions; show 20 seconds of Oin examining the Dwarves after the troll incident, or attempting to revive Thorin at the carrock; hint, if not spell out, that Thorin has known Fili and Kili for years and raised them; actually mention Dwalin and Thorin grew up together, ETC. Give the Dwarves more dialogue that better defines their characters rather than "more orcs coming"! or whatever the side dwarves were relegated with in the film. How much would that have added to AUJ - 90 seconds of screentime?

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jul 4 2013, 10:48pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 4 2013, 11:11pm

Post #9 of 27 (374 views)
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Quote! [In reply to] Can't Post

"You will LOVE each Dwarve
by the End of the Films.".

"...Each has his HERO Moment.."
PLEASE
Trust PJ


iduna
Rivendell


Jul 5 2013, 12:07am

Post #10 of 27 (353 views)
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Yes, subtitles offer additional insight... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I don't think Bombur had any lines in AUJ. He might have some in one of the later movies.

Also, just because a character doesn't talk doesn't mean his character isn't "fleshed out" or made unique. The nice thing about movies is that you can see the characters and learn a lot about who they are, just from the way they look and move.


marillaraina
Rohan


Jul 5 2013, 12:12am

Post #11 of 27 (354 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

While the subtitles didn't change my mind about anything I found they did help with some of the dialogue and at the very least supported the impressions I'd already gotten from the film.

Like the stuff with Kili, one of my favorite things in the film was the way I felt he took so quickly to Bilbo, I found it really endearing and the subtitles just sort of helped clarify it.

And I agree about the Thorin and his nephews, they both kind of resemble him in different ways. Fili with his eye coloring and nose, Kili with his hair and..um...ocular intensity?(The Goblin Town bit cracked me up when I got to watch it more closely as it went by so quickly the first time, their "death glares" were like two peas in a pod. Kili may not have made it to Majestic yet but he sure has Fierce down pat).

I enjoyed reading Nori's teasing quite a bit, wish we could have heard a bit more of it. I do agree, I don't want the dwarves to get lost, esp now that they seem to all up the elves backsides in the trailers and whatnot. :) I think a lot of fans really became fond of the dwarves and would like to see more about them.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jul 5 2013, 12:24am

Post #12 of 27 (351 views)
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Were they really going to be 13 Gimli's? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the novel, I recall each dwarf was described differently, from the hair color to the clothing. I thought the appearance of the dwarves was fine, and I expected them to look different because they look different in the book. Did some people really think there would be Gimli clones?


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 5 2013, 5:13am

Post #13 of 27 (309 views)
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Were we told that would happen at the end of film one? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was my understanding that we would know the dwarves as individuals at the end of the films (plural) not film (singular).


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 5 2013, 5:47am

Post #14 of 27 (296 views)
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lol [In reply to] Can't Post



I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jul 5 2013, 6:37am

Post #15 of 27 (281 views)
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Exactly...if you read the quote I posted above... [In reply to] Can't Post

Boyens says explicitly that we will learn more about each Dwarf as Bilbo comes to know them. They felt it would be too much to try and flesh out each Dwarf in AUJ, so opted to spread out the character development along Bilbo's journey through all 3 films.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 5 2013, 6:55am

Post #16 of 27 (276 views)
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I'm having a hard time trying to think of which of the Dwarves Bilbo came to know in AUJ, apart from Thorin! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's one of my negatives about the film - that Bilbo had very little interaction with any of the Dwarves, and didn't ask any basic questions which would certainly have improved the film.

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 5 2013, 6:56am

Post #17 of 27 (289 views)
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So far [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin Fili Kili Bofur and Balin mainly

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 5 2013, 7:03am

Post #18 of 27 (286 views)
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He interacted with them, sure. [In reply to] Can't Post

But there were no character moments - does Biblo really know anything about them? Still, there are 9 hours worth of film yet to go.

Smile

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 5 2013, 7:16am

Post #19 of 27 (275 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post

But its a matter of mediums as well. I don't think the arc of character development in a movie is as involved as it is in a book. Especially in an action movie as this one has panned out so far. there was no time for it between the stuff you had to show and all the running, chasing, and falling. I thjink what we've gooten so far in development and relationships between Bilbo and the Dwarves is about all we're going to see. It's a shame really, but PJ is putting too much other stuff into the films even with 6 more hours to really have time for anything else.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



(This post was edited by Yngwulff on Jul 5 2013, 7:20am)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jul 5 2013, 10:19am

Post #20 of 27 (270 views)
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I think the convo between Bilbo and Bofur in theGoblin cave counts... [In reply to] Can't Post

but there may (hopefully) be more in the EE - fingers-crossed!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Noria
Rohan

Jul 5 2013, 12:28pm

Post #21 of 27 (256 views)
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13 Gimlis [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are referring to my thirteen Gimlis remark, I meant that they could have gone for thirteen Gimli-like Dwarves, like Gimli's companions at the Council of Elrond in FotR and Oin and Gloin in AUJ. Naturally the latter two have been made to resemble Gimli and each other and that's fine with just two of them. But thirteen of the same type would both be hard to distinguish visually and boring, IMO.

The photos of the movie Dwarves were released long before AUJ so those of us who were paying attention knew what they would look like. I dont know what other people expected; probably most of the audience had never read the book so the first trailer was the first time they realized that the movie would contain a large group of Dwarves.

The Dwarves in the book all have different hair colour and clothing but there is very little to distinguish any of them otherwise except perhaps Balin.

I love the variety of Dwarf looks in AUJ and think it a stroke of genius to portray them visually and through action. I not sure its necessary to develop each and every dwarf as more than a background character but Im all for it if it happens.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 5 2013, 12:33pm

Post #22 of 27 (251 views)
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Not Gimli clones... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Did some people really think there would be Gimli clones?


But at least dwarven-looking. Thorin and Kili, and to a lesser extent Bofur, just look like really short men instead of dwarves (although Thorin has moments where he looks more like a typical dwarf, probably due to the lighting). Take Dwalin and Balin for instance - to me they both look absolutely like what I pictured dwarves to look like, but neither looks anything like Gimli to me. The look of the dwarves is not my biggest gripe with AUJ by a long shot, but I think they still could have at least tried to make Thorin and Kili look more like dwarves instead of going for the "sexy" factor. The fact that some of them have short-to-no beards sticks out like a sore thumb IMO.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jul 5 2013, 4:01pm

Post #23 of 27 (210 views)
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The implication to me was that there certainly [In reply to] Can't Post

wasn't going to be one film out of three where most of the Dwarves remained underdeveloped, at least IMO.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jul 5 2013, 4:07pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jul 5 2013, 4:02pm

Post #24 of 27 (205 views)
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Agreed, and IMO we might have had more moments of the Dwarves interacting [In reply to] Can't Post

between themselves as well (getting a sense of the relationships between brothers and as a company). Hopefully yes, we'll get more in the EE and next two films.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 6:36pm

Post #25 of 27 (139 views)
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Durin family resemblance [In reply to] Can't Post

I really, really like the fact that Kili has dark hair in the movie - it just made sense to me that at least one of the boys would look like their uncle. Haha, his death glare cracks me up too. He may be only wannabe majestic, but he tries. Smile I like to think of Fili as "majesty-in-training", and his little, "We may be few in number..." speech in Bag End solidified that for me. He knows how to get the dwarves' attention, encourage them, and focus them on their goal, and plainly the dwarves respect him enough to listen to him, even if he is supporting Thorin's point. (If you watch closely, while Kili is doing his whole, "But you forget we have a wizard in our company!" line, Fili looks to Thorin and nods. I prefer to believe that Thorin gave him a nod of appreciation for his little speech and that Fili is acknowledging him - majesty in training indeed!)

Another little thing that ties Thorin to his nephews that I really like is his hair in the prologue, or at least in part of it. Right after it shows Thror spinning happily in his treasure room, it cuts to Thorin, and as he turns away you can see he has a metal clip in his hair like Fili and Kili wear later on. Some part of me wants to believe so badly that that clip had the Durin crest or something on it and that Fili (or Kili, I suppose) inherited it.

Also, if you watch Goblintown closely, you can see Thorin catching Fili as they jump off a swinging section of bridge. (I have a gif of it, but it's too big to attach... Unsure)

I really love having 13 Dwarves in AUJ, though, because they're always doing something funny in the background. Almost every time I rewatch it, I notice something new. Even just the little things the Dwarves do tell you so much about their character - Bifur standing sentry duty while Gandalf talks to Radagast, Bifur taking a bite out of the hanging sausage while Bombur walks off with the cheese, Bifur washing dishes before Fili and Kili start bringing him the plates via acobatics... Okay, I like watching for Bifur. He's always up to something.

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."

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