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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will Saruman will be a deciding factor in the assault on Dol Guldur?
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Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 1:12am

Post #1 of 35 (909 views)
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Will Saruman will be a deciding factor in the assault on Dol Guldur? Can't Post

Going by Gandalf's comments in the Council of Elrond chapter, it was "the devices of Saruman" that ultimately allowed the White Council to prevail in driving the Necromancer from his fortress. (Although there is also information that states that Sauron had long made plans to flee before the Council even attacked, so possible inconsistencies aside...)

Being that the Dol Guldur side-plot seems to be building up to a sort of "coming-of-age" moment for Gandalf, and rumors abound of Galadriel supposedly being primed for an awesome display of power, do you think they will give Saruman and his "devices" a central role in the assault, or will they allow the more sympathetic members of the Council to show their stuff?

It's my opinion that Saruman's role will likely be greatly diminished, due to the fact that he is so well-known as a traitorous villain and is a pretty unsympathetic character to audiences. I think Jackson is going to use the opportunity to make Gandalf the major hero (since it IS his character arc, and he's a beloved character), and possibly Galadriel (if the rumors are anything to go by). I've got a feeling that Saruman's role will be to stall the Council until the last minute, and then have Gandalf, Radagast, Galadriel, and Elrond basically veto him and attack the fortress, and Saruman either grudgingly agrees to it, or sits out the battle entirely.

Thoughts?


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jul 4 2013, 1:15am)


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jul 4 2013, 1:46am

Post #2 of 35 (539 views)
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I remember reading [In reply to] Can't Post

here on the forums (I think) that in an interview McCoy stated that he didn't film anything with Lee, but that Saruman would be involved in the attack but not in the thick of it (if I'm remembering correctly). I can't seem to find where that was mentioned. This, of course, would be because, well Christopher Lee is very old and we know all his stuff needed to be filmed in London. Frown


Quote
It's my opinion that Saruman's role will likely be greatly diminished, due to the fact that he is so well-known as a traitorous villain and is a pretty unsympathetic character to audiences.


This doesn't seem too farfetched at all.

So I don't think they'll leave him out of the battle, but I can see Jackson and Boyens having him stall the council as long as he can. Then everyone on the council will be convinced that Sauron has returned except Saruman. And of course we'll get Saruman's moment of realization (much similar to Cornelius Fudge's reaction to seeing Voldemort return in HP 5, "He's back!", or something cheesy along those lines).



bungobaggins
Lorien


Jul 4 2013, 2:06am

Post #3 of 35 (514 views)
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Found the post I was talking about. [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...orum.cgi?post=609585


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jul 4 2013, 2:43am

Post #4 of 35 (494 views)
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Has there been any word of Christopher Lee filming more scenes? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure his role is done, especially if it involves moving around. He's 91 years old, it was great that he was in the first film but that's all I expect from him.


MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jul 4 2013, 2:57am

Post #5 of 35 (463 views)
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Hmm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


The video is private, can you quote what it says?


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jul 4 2013, 3:18am

Post #6 of 35 (449 views)
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Well I can't quote it... [In reply to] Can't Post

but I can provide a working link...that's also available in that thread only a few posts down, from yours truly.

http://youtu.be/T5w7IO4Elsw?t=34m54s


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jul 4 2013, 4:47am

Post #7 of 35 (446 views)
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"Moving around" is surely done by doubles. [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't think Lee actually participated in the smack-downs in FotR, do you?

They probably filmed a lot of line-readings with green screen in England, and can paste him in to practically anything.








Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 4 2013, 5:04am

Post #8 of 35 (440 views)
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FOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

Even in FOTR Gandalf is subserviant to Saruman. Howevew, I do think Gandalf will hold the pivotal role with backing by Galadriel and/or Radhaghast which either makes it possible or forces Sarumans into action at Dol Guldur.

On a side note, I do think PJ will show either the beginning of Saruman being turned to evil or that he has already been flipped at some point in the film.


I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 5:27am

Post #9 of 35 (448 views)
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Saruman, Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...It's my opinion that Saruman's role will likely be greatly diminished, due to the fact that he is so well-known as a traitorous villain and is a pretty unsympathetic character to audiences. I think Jackson is going to use the opportunity to make Gandalf the major hero (since it IS his character arc, and he's a beloved character), and possibly Galadriel (if the rumors are anything to go by). ... Thoughts?


I think you are dead wrong about Saruman because he has not yet turned fully to the "dark side," (a Star Wars joke referring to Lee's involvement in that franchise) in Christopher Lee's own (paraphrased) words about the character. He should know - he reads the books once a year. Not just that, but Lee's own popularity, charm and charisma very much outshine any (scum and) villainy he portrays. And who doesn't love a good villain? Do you really think Darth Tyrannus (Count Dooku) was an unsympathetic character?

But we do have to deal with an elderly Christopher Lee's limited four days of filming . That reality can't be ignored.

As for the hero, if Boyens' "feminine energy" is to be considered, it is the Elf Galadriel who will shine in comparison to the Maiar victims of sexist revisionism.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jul 4 2013, 5:31am)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jul 4 2013, 8:26am

Post #10 of 35 (378 views)
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I hope not. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
On a side note, I do think PJ will show either the beginning of Saruman being turned to evil or that he has already been flipped at some point in the film.


Saruman is being portrayed as something of an arrogant jerk in AUJ, but I fervently hope we won't see him "turn", because that will totally spoil the reveal in FotR for future fans who see these films in order.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jul 4 2013, 8:27am)


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 4 2013, 8:51am

Post #11 of 35 (363 views)
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It would also make Gandalf look pretty stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

in FOTR, when he says to Frodo "I will go to the head of my Order. He is both wise and powerful. He will know what to do" If Saruman is shown to be too much of an obstacle in DoS/TABA, ( even if the rest of the White Council just perceive him as a bit of a jerk rather than as evil) why would Gandalf go to him to ask about the ring? Wouldn't he just go and have a chat with Elrond and Galadriel if Saruman had proved himself not very useful (at best) at Dol Guldur? I'm hoping that Saruman will play a part that lulls us and the WC into a false sense of security


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 4 2013, 8:58am

Post #12 of 35 (358 views)
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good chance it's in there [In reply to] Can't Post


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Saruman is being portrayed as something of an arrogant jerk in AUJ,



He was an arrogant jerk in FOTR as well as in the books aloof and very condescending to Gandalf from LOTR - "Radagast the Brown! ... Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet he had just the wit to play the part that I set him."

In the Silmarillion it says that Saruman used Radaghast to help him search for the Ring in the Gladden Fields, and in the appendices of th LOTR it clearly says at the time of the Attack on Dol Guldur Saruman was already obsessing on the One Ring which is why he tried to block the attack initially.

When irrefutable evidence of the Necromancer being Sauron was presented, he could no longer stand in the way of the White Council and relented or risk having his true motivations revealed. He was already using the Palantir for many years by this point, so it was more than likely his betrayal via the Palantir which allowed Sauron to escape. That was OK, because now he could search inimpeded by Sauron even though it was found centuries earlier. All that is canon and mostly found in the LOTR appendices, thus fair game for PJ to use.



I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jul 4 2013, 9:14am

Post #13 of 35 (344 views)
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Let's hope so... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the Silmarillion it says that Saruman used Radaghast to help him search for the Ring in the Gladden Fields, and in the appendices of th LOTR it clearly says at the time of the Attack on Dol Guldur Saruman was already obsessing on the One Ring which is why he tried to block the attack initially.

When irrefutable evidence of the Necromancer being Sauron was presented, he could no longer stand in the way of the White Council and relented or risk having his true motivations revealed. He was already using the Palantir for many years by this point, so it was more than likely his betrayal via the Palantir which allowed Sauron to escape. That was OK, because now he could search inimpeded by Sauron even though it was found centuries earlier. All that is canon and mostly found in the LOTR appendices, thus fair game for PJ to use.

...all that is vastly more interesting than anything J/W/B have made up for The Hobbit so far...


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 4 2013, 9:32am

Post #14 of 35 (341 views)
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It already showed Sarumans reluctance to act in AUJ [In reply to] Can't Post

The next canon step is Gandalf getting more irrefutable proof and Saruman relenting ... which by the trailer appears to be on track. PJ doesn't have to club us over the head by implicating Saruman either, he can just tickle our chin with with a gentle subtle touch.


I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Jul 4 2013, 9:40am

Post #15 of 35 (375 views)
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Saruman will be in TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

As I mentioned in another thread Sir Christopher Lee told us that he will be "in both films". That was before it turns into a trilogy. BUT it tells us that we will see him at least one more time. Again as I mentioned in the other thread about a second or third meeting of the Council this will be at the end of TABA when Bilbo and Gandalf return to Rivendell. This meeting is also mentioned in the book (chapter 19 The Last Stage).

Although it is possible that they use a stunt double for Lee at the Dol Guldur battle which would be also correct in McCoys words that he never worked with Lee (because Lee was in London and not in Wellington) I don't think that Saruman will be acting during that battle. It would be cool to see him shooting fireballs (as in ROTK) at the Nazgl but something tells me that it won't happen.

We'll see him again in Rivendell at the end of TABA but not in Dol Guldur. But I hope that we gonna see more of him. Please!! ;)


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 12:50pm

Post #16 of 35 (297 views)
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I'll have to disagree [In reply to] Can't Post


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I think you are dead wrong about Saruman because he has not yet turned fully to the "dark side,"


I think Jackson is going to use the debate about what to do about Dol Guldur to foreshadow Saruman's fall from grace, instead of propping him up as the hero. Sure, Lee is popular, but do you really believe that Jackson would have Saruman outshine Gandalf in the assault? I highly doubt it. Not only that, but Saruman's portrayal in AUJ did nothing to make him look like a good guy.

Also, in what way am I "dead wrong" about Saruman? Even though he had not yet looked into the Palantir, his fall had already begun well before that. He had been stalling action on Dol Guldur for almost 100 years before Bilbo's quest, all so he could secretly search the nearby areas for the Ring. He was already a villain by the time of The Hobbit, although not yet openly.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 1:17pm

Post #17 of 35 (284 views)
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Err...not exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien notes in the Tale of Years (Appendix B) that Saruman only dared to look into the Palantir c3000 of the Third Age... although as Salmacis says, his fall from grace began long before that, as can be seen by his stalling of Gandalf's call for an attack on DG back in TA 2850 when Gandalf discovered Thrain and evidence of Sauron there.



Quote

When irrefutable evidence of the Necromancer being Sauron was presented, he could no longer stand in the way of the White Council and relented or risk having his true motivations revealed. He was already using the Palantir for many years by this point, so it was more than likely his betrayal via the Palantir which allowed Sauron to escape. That was OK, because now he could search inimpeded by Sauron even though it was found centuries earlier. All that is canon and mostly found in the LOTR appendices, thus fair game for PJ to use.





"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jul 4 2013, 1:21pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 4 2013, 1:41pm

Post #18 of 35 (299 views)
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There is no WC meeting in the book following the BoFA [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As I mentioned in another thread Sir Christopher Lee told us that he will be "in both films". That was before it turns into a trilogy. BUT it tells us that we will see him at least one more time. Again as I mentioned in the other thread about a second or third meeting of the Council this will be at the end of TABA when Bilbo and Gandalf return to Rivendell. This meeting is also mentioned in the book (chapter 19 The Last Stage). We'll see him again in Rivendell at the end of TABA but not in Dol Guldur. But I hope that we gonna see more of him. Please!! ;)



We probably won't see Saruman in Rivendell during the return journey. In the book, Gandalf spoke to Elrond about the "council of white wizards" that drove the Necromancer from Mirkwood, but that was all. The actual WC meeting would have taken place while Thorin and Company were still wandering in Mirkwood or soon after their capture by the Wood-elves. The attack was done by the time that the company reached Lake-town.

I grant you that Jackson is likely to present this much differently. Gandalf won't be able to present his findings to the Council until well into DoS or possibly not until early in TaBA.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jul 4 2013, 2:42pm

Post #19 of 35 (272 views)
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Ugh, Count Dooku. Ugh. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Do you really think Darth Tyrannus (Count Dooku) was an unsympathetic character?


It's not his fault those films were awful, but yes, I hated Count Dooku. Not how he was portrayed, or that he was a villain, but the character itself being in such awful movies.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 4:11pm

Post #20 of 35 (255 views)
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But as far as Saruman's role in the battle is concerned... [In reply to] Can't Post

Will he be the major factor in the victory? Or will he play a smaller role so Gandalf and Galadriel can be the heroes? I have a feeling it'll be the latter, because whether you like Saruman or not (I do), I just don't see Jackson making him the big hero of the battle, since the sub-plot is Gandalf's big "do-or-die" moment. That doesn't mean I want it that way, it just means I think it will turn out that way. Jackson is not following canon very closely with the appendix material thus far, and I don't expect him to start now.


Quote
he can just tickle our chin with with a gentle subtle touch


I tend not to equate PJ with subtlety Tongue


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 5:34pm

Post #21 of 35 (237 views)
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The Reality [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Will he be the major factor in the victory? Or will he play a smaller role so Gandalf and Galadriel can be the heroes?Tongue


This is pointless wondering. There's only so much you can do in four days if filming with Christopher Lee. That's the reality - not the plot or whether Jackson is following canon. Not that Jackson/Boyens/Walsh collectively and entirely respect the given history of Middle-earth enough to think it's better than their revisionist version.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jul 4 2013, 5:36pm)


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 5:43pm

Post #22 of 35 (215 views)
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Remember! [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of Lee's battle-scenes (if any) will be done by a stunt double with Lee's face pasted on top if needed for close-ups and dialogue Smile
4 days is long enough for this Wink

Vocalist in the progressive metal band Renamed.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 6:32pm

Post #23 of 35 (206 views)
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Remember [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I remember. You mean like Lee's lightsaber duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan was done with a stunt double. They put Lee's face on the performer. That's an entirely reasonable thought. I just doubt they'll go that far with it, in part because it still requires a moderate amount of action from Lee as a basis for the CGI work and it still take time.

If I am remembering correctly, Lee's part in Dark Shadows took about the same amount of time. It translated to a couple of minutes on film where he sat at a table. Sound familiar? So far on IMDB, Lee is credited to all three films. That stretches him a little thin across them all.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 6:40pm

Post #24 of 35 (198 views)
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There's plenty of point to my wondering... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because Lee only filmed for 4 days does not mean Saruman couldn't take part in the battle with the aid of CGI, or that his "devices" can't play a major role in the battle even if he does not. It is not as utterly impossible as you're making it out to be.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2013, 6:44pm

Post #25 of 35 (194 views)
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Why might that be? [In reply to] Can't Post


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I just doubt they'll go that far with it


Maybe it's because the whole idea of it means that your argument is not the certainty you're presenting it as.

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