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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Necromancer with 4 fingers on one hand?
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boldog
Rohan


Jun 28 2013, 10:48pm

Post #1 of 29 (1245 views)
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Necromancer with 4 fingers on one hand? Can't Post

Hey all! (again)
Wouldn't it be just plain awesome and in good reference to the war of the ring, if they show the Necromancer with four fingers?
He is obviously going to be in a somewhat human form, so obviously he has hands! I can just see a scene, where the three Istari, are looking with horror, as this terror walks down the steps towards them. They will show his body from behind, and then we will see a greatly detailed shot of his hand with four fingers on it. Gandalf will have a horrified look on his face and the Necromancer will be then revealed as Sauron!
I can see this being of epicness almost greater then the revelation of Smaug!
what do you all think? This MUST be done!

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Kimtc
Rohan


Jun 28 2013, 11:30pm

Post #2 of 29 (571 views)
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Interesting for continuity's sake. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure about Gandalf realizing it. Might be cooler as something the audience knows but the characters don't (and we can all start screaming at the screen "It's Sauron! It's Sauron!").


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jun 28 2013, 11:33pm

Post #3 of 29 (552 views)
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Definitely [In reply to] Can't Post

He needs to have four fingers on one hand. It's even mentioned in The Two Towers by Gollum, who actually saw Sauron, and said that he had nine fingers.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 28 2013, 11:43pm

Post #4 of 29 (598 views)
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How are you going to explain the flaming eye on top of the tower though? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 28 2013, 11:45pm

Post #5 of 29 (580 views)
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The Sauronmeter [In reply to] Can't Post

Power rising......rising.....

Tongue

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


boldog
Rohan


Jun 28 2013, 11:52pm

Post #6 of 29 (565 views)
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flaming eye .. [In reply to] Can't Post

...is definitely a mind boggle!!
I have no idea how it will show the transition, but I'm sure jackson has cone up with something quite interesting!
!

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jun 29 2013, 12:00am

Post #7 of 29 (553 views)
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I must admit I am confused. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the FOTR director's commentary Jackson says that the tower of Barad-dur is under construction and only 1/3 it's total height. So how could we see the appearance of the eye at the top of a tower that isn't even built yet?


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jun 29 2013, 12:09am

Post #8 of 29 (548 views)
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It hasn't been built yet [In reply to] Can't Post

- not the tower nor the eye manifestation - so doesn't need explaining in the Hobbit films.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 29 2013, 2:34am

Post #9 of 29 (495 views)
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Movie-wise [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't Isildur cut off more than one finger? So showing four wouldn't make any sense at all.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Retro315
Rivendell

Jun 29 2013, 4:03am

Post #10 of 29 (456 views)
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RE [In reply to] Can't Post

True, but I suppose by movie logic they could imply that the part of an unholy avatar like Sauron is specifically where the Ring was removed from him was the only part unable to regenerate. Either way "Nine! Nine fingers has the black hand," is a pretty legendary line and was a huge parallel link between Frodo and Sauron himself - no other character was ever physically contrasted with him like that - and that extends to Frodo's other scars as well. (Obviously in other ways other characters do compare; Saruman is explicitly held up as a 'similar mind' - a disciple of Aule who tinkers and 'breaks things'. And there's an unexplored but subtextually extant comparison to be made between Middle-earth's other notorious shape-shifter; Beorn.)

Depicting Sauron has long been one of my most active fields of Middle-earth lore; personally, I think I'll be mildly irked as an originalist if we see him 'in-the-flesh' without a huge, terrible scar all over his throat. This is a guy who's appeared as beautiful Maiar, towering Dark Lord, werewolf, vampire, serpent - the only thing alerting the Wise to his new guise that no matter what form he takes, he can't heal his Legendary scars, and he can't change his freaky-deaky glowing orange cat eyes.


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 29 2013, 9:54am

Post #11 of 29 (336 views)
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It would be nice! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he had more than one cut off in FOTR though.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 29 2013, 1:57pm

Post #12 of 29 (300 views)
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The whole purpose... [In reply to] Can't Post

of the "flaming eye" in film-universe, as explained by Saruman in FOTR, was that Sauron was as yet unable to take physical form. Why is he able to take physical form in TH then, but not LOTR? Maybe it's unimportant to some, but I would like an explanation for it, at least for continuity's sake. It's a pretty big transition, going from a humanoid figure to a stationary flaming eye...


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jun 29 2013, 2:00pm)


Skaan
Lorien


Jun 29 2013, 2:09pm

Post #13 of 29 (297 views)
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Because he will most likely not have a physical form in The Hobbit either [In reply to] Can't Post

If he will get a physical form, they might aswell just put Benedict Cumberbatch into some armor and make-up to do the role, rather than using motion-capture.

I'm guessing he'll just be some kind of ghost/spirit, but a bit more advanced than what we saw in AUJ.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 29 2013, 6:39pm

Post #14 of 29 (234 views)
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That seems too complicated [In reply to] Can't Post

and doesn't really make any sense, IMO. If he's shown with a body (which as others have said, he shouldn't be) then I prefer just to give him 10 appendages. No sense in making it all confusing, I don't think.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 29 2013, 7:40pm

Post #15 of 29 (236 views)
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But if he couldn't take physical form... [In reply to] Can't Post

Why does Gollum say he has a finger missing? It isn't really straightforward - Tolkien did leave some room for interpretation.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 29 2013, 7:45pm

Post #16 of 29 (226 views)
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Is that in the film? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't recall Gollum saying that in the film, and the book never says that Sauron isn't able to take physical form as far as I remember.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 29 2013, 7:56pm

Post #17 of 29 (208 views)
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I'm only talking about the film-universe... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure that Sauron in the books was able to take a physical form, at least it was never mentioned that he couldn't.

Edit: Ardamire beat me to it.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jun 29 2013, 7:57pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 29 2013, 7:57pm

Post #18 of 29 (226 views)
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Now you come to mention it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure. I can hear Gollum's voice saying it, but that might just be my imagination.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 29 2013, 7:59pm

Post #19 of 29 (208 views)
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It could work... [In reply to] Can't Post

if , like you mentioned, he's just portrayed as some kind of incorporeal ghost. But if they do give Sauron a body, him turning up as a giant flaming eye later on just wouldn't make sense.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 29 2013, 8:00pm

Post #20 of 29 (207 views)
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Gollum never says anything about Sauron's "four fingers on the back hand" in the films... [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 29 2013, 9:54pm

Post #21 of 29 (178 views)
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Fair enough. Just my imagination then! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jun 29 2013, 10:03pm

Post #22 of 29 (185 views)
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That he can't yet take physical form [In reply to] Can't Post

doesn't mean that he's the flaming eyeball. I've always thought that was a construct through which he operated - it wasn't him hanging about between the horns atop Barad-dur.

Remember in the ROTK appendices, PJ mentioned that initially Aragorn was going to fight Sauron in his Annatar guise in front of the black gate, but they later switched to him fighting a mountain troll? In PJ's head, Sauron was embodied enough to wield a sword against an opponent - and the flaming eye was still on top of the tower.

(I'm glad they moved away from Aragorn going mano-a-mano with Sauron - way too cliché for my taste.)

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jun 29 2013, 10:04pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 29 2013, 10:18pm

Post #23 of 29 (171 views)
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But was he... [In reply to] Can't Post

Originally going to be strong enough by then to take physical form and fight Aragorn? That's how I imagine it was suppose to develop.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 29 2013, 10:20pm

Post #24 of 29 (179 views)
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Interesting theory about the eye being a construct... [In reply to] Can't Post

but this is the first time I've ever heard that theory. I and just about everyone else I know who watched the movies were under the impression that the Eye IS Sauron, and I've never heard Jackson or anyone else say otherwise. Interesting about the Annatar thing though, I'll have to watch those appendices again and see if I can glean any new info from them.


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Jun 29 2013, 11:32pm

Post #25 of 29 (162 views)
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It's not exactly a theory... [In reply to] Can't Post

...more of a differing interpretation of Tolkien's words.

In the books, Sauron is said to be in the tower of Barad-dur. The Eye of Sauron was used to represent the extension of his will and gaze stretching across the land (whether there was physically a huge flaming eyeball atop the tower or a metaphorical one is open to debate).

My impression is that people who read the books first tend to think of the Eye of Sauron as a construct for the actual Sauron. While people who saw the movies first assume the Eye IS Sauron because it's all they see of him for two movies. I don't think Tolkien intended the Eye to be Sauron's new form. Not sure of Jackson's intention.

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