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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
As promised a SPOLIER heavy look at the Empire DOS Issue, needless to say those 'appendices' are more detailed then I remeber...
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Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 27 2013, 4:14pm

Post #176 of 253 (629 views)
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I've always imagined [In reply to] Can't Post

you as a ruthless ninja assassin. Tongue

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 4:26pm

Post #177 of 253 (633 views)
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Eleniel [In reply to] Can't Post

well, i am not so sure about "killing machines" being any appropriate role models for young females,...Angelic

Agreed on the hot dwarves, again, Boyens' department Tongue

Elenor : I would wager she will be more attractive for the boys, as well.

Galadriel might have served as a female bait, with her imposing, magnetic presence, but Tuariel is more of a kick a** eyecandy for the males.

But the "need" for "female energy" from boyens to me sounds patronizing and almost dismissive of TH's charms and characteristics, one of them being an all male centered story...

If the tables were turned, it would be a case of male chauvinism..Tongue

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 4:26pm

Post #178 of 253 (639 views)
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if you would like to explain where the [In reply to] Can't Post

''gross'' part is, because my comments seemed pretty accurate to me.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 4:31pm

Post #179 of 253 (615 views)
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herm! [In reply to] Can't Post

you can take the girl out of Manchester, but you can never take the killer ninja Mancunian out of the girl. *flyingkickaaaaaaaaarrrrgggh!* Sly


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 27 2013, 4:33pm

Post #180 of 253 (629 views)
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You took a fairly extended and well thought out post [In reply to] Can't Post

and narrowed it down to a simplistic sound bite that does not at all capture what the poster was saying. I have no problem with debate and disagreement, but disagree with what someone actually writes, not with a soundbite of your own devising.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Jun 27 2013, 4:34pm

Post #181 of 253 (653 views)
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Thoughts - [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Fathers and sons is a big theme in the film



So we have:

- Thrain and Thorin of the Dwarves

- Thranduil and Legolas of the Elves

- Azog and Bolg of the Orcs

- and probably Bard and Bain of the race of Men.



Quote
Is he sure he has enough left for the final film 'Oh yes, there is much to come. We have a battle with five armies' he says. 'You never know, it might be seven, eight or nine armies by the time we finish'


I'm wondering if this 'Battle of Five Or More Armies' will involve Elrond and the White Council as well as other minions of the Necromancer who joined Bolg. If Sauron plays a bigger part in the movies than he did in the book, then that's quite possible. I have a feeling this 'new' BO5A may be the culmination of both the 'Bilbo/Smaug' and the 'White Council/Dol Guldur' storylines

As well as causing a huge loss of life amongst the Dwarves, the Men of Lake-Town and the Elves of Mirkwood, similar losses amongst the Elves of Rivendell and Lorien could explain to a mainstream audience, why, by the time of LOTR, many of the Elves had left Middle-Earth.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



Dwarvenfury
Lorien

Jun 27 2013, 4:44pm

Post #182 of 253 (623 views)
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Who said this? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did a writer or director say this about Tauriel's creation?
Are they really sure it needs a different 'energy'?

I hope whoever said that will eventually go into specific detail on what that comprises
this 'energy.'

This facade will be interesting and could very well please many people. I am not sure
that films can lie as effectively when watched at a later time than in the hype of the present (not
talking of book fidelity). I am not sure on this though. We shall see.!


(This post was edited by Dwarvenfury on Jun 27 2013, 4:45pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 4:51pm

Post #183 of 253 (615 views)
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The Master of Screenwriting [In reply to] Can't Post

herself , P.Boyens in the empire magazine article.


I take it as feminine energy infused in the story to balance the over excessiveness of male energy.

Im afraid i didnt quite understand your last paragraph, could you repeat your meaning, please?

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Jun 27 2013, 4:54pm)


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 4:58pm

Post #184 of 253 (583 views)
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Oh I quite agree it's not... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
well, i am not so sure about "killing machines" being any appropriate role models for young females,...Angelic

Agreed on the hot dwarves, again, Boyens' department Tongue


But that's what the party line would have us believe, otherwise why would us girls need this feminine energy? Wink

Unfortunately, the argument rather cancels itself out: if there needs to be a female role model for the female audience then why the 'hot' Dwarves? Are they for a different audience demographic, then? Angelic


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 27 2013, 4:59pm

Post #185 of 253 (669 views)
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"Male Centered"? Hardly. [In reply to] Can't Post

That "The Hobbit" is exclusively about males is hardly one of "The Hobbit"'s charms. On the contrary, it is for me one of the (few) weaknesses of the book. One it shares (alas) with many, many of the adventure books I enjoyed as a girl. It never stopped me from imagining myself joining in such adventures when I was young, I am happy to say. But because it did not, I fear it will not make me recoil in disgust and anger to watch a fellow female having such adventures on screen when I watch an adaptation of the novel. I anticipate I shall like it, provided Evangeline Lilly (whose previous work I have zero experience of) proves to be an actress I enjoy.

Unlike the novel, "The Hobbit" film series can be fairly described as male-centered. Ms. Boyens (and let us not forget the others moe centrally involved in the decision making) have added two named, secondary characters who are female (Galadriel, Tauriel), which is hardly stopping the film series from being "male-centric". The three central characters (Bilbo, Thorin, Gandalf) and vast swaths of the supporting cast (Elrond, Saruman, Thranduil, Radagast, Bard, Beorn, Legolas, the Master of Laketown, Thror, Thrain, Azog, Bolg, Smaug, the Necromancer, Gollum, and 12 other Dwarves) are male.

To me, taking an existing very minor character (Captain of the Guard), giving that character a name (Tauriel) and giving her things to do, seems an eminently reasonable for a film adaptation of a 1937 novel for a 2013 audience, which does address (to a limited degree) this weakness of the source material.

And if the guys at the theater with me enjoy seeing her, I have no objection. What we have already seen of her costume, makeup, and demeanor makes clear she isn't remotely being presented as a sex object, though the actress is undeniably striking.


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

Jun 27 2013, 5:02pm

Post #186 of 253 (693 views)
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That's interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

that the writer would say this. As much was suspected, but a credit to
the writer for honesty anyhow.

I would just like to hear from the writer what this energy entails. Truly, it's a feminine
energy. But what is this? If there is a distinction here, why not specifically name it?
Because naming it would back you into a terrible corner perhaps? Or maybe because
the ultimate addition of a character is not a specific energy per se but the fact that
it is a female character. And how might merely a female character enhance a story?
Well, I guess most seeing this film won't wonder but will enjoy, which i think will be
great and fun. It's would just be interesting to hear a conversation on this Evil
(my questions are rhetorical, btw Cool)

The last paragraph in my previous post, I was implying that ultimately, story must
drive a film, not merely ornaments. I don't know if this is true, just be general supposition
at the time being. Cheers!


(This post was edited by Dwarvenfury on Jun 27 2013, 5:05pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 27 2013, 5:11pm

Post #187 of 253 (598 views)
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Article also says Thranduil is just 3000 years old [In reply to] Can't Post

They've almost halved is estimated age. Wouldn't that make him the same age as Arwen by the time of The Hobbit? Unimpressed ...


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 5:14pm

Post #188 of 253 (571 views)
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What you consider a weakness [In reply to] Can't Post

i dont. I certainly like a boys own story, free form all that estrogen :P

I like TH as Tolkien wrote it. All of this "updating" to modern audiences just sounds like a vulgarisation and cheapening of the material.

Should every old story form the past have a female character shoehorned in it, just cause its 2013?

There are no female characters in TH novel. Thats it.
Why do people have to make such a fuss about it.. Some people seem to be almost offended by this aspect...

If i read a story centered on women exclusively, i doubt i will be sighing for the precious "male energy"...


"Unlike the novel, "The Hobbit" film series can be fairly described as male-centered."

I dont follow...is ithe novel male centered or not? If you have read the same book as i have, then it is.

Ultimately, it all comes down to your not minding and not having objetcions to changes and inventions to which i strongly do.

"Giving her things to do "is a dangerous road to travel, when it comes to an invented character on Tolkiens The Hobbit, imo. Tongue

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 5:19pm

Post #189 of 253 (573 views)
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Agreed!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Theres too much pandering to females!!MadTongue


Supposedly, the dwarves are eyecandy, while tauriel serves as a balsam and a role model for females...

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Glorfindela
Valinor


Jun 27 2013, 5:24pm

Post #190 of 253 (604 views)
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I'm very far from being a prude [In reply to] Can't Post

But why is it that some actors use the 'f' word and other swear words during interviews? I can understand that a juvenile might think it's 'cool' to do so, but surely Orlando Bloom, at 37 years of age, is old enough to know better? To me this just smacks of someone who doesn't have much to say for himself.

I've just read the Empire magazine article, and I'm sorry, but the face of 'Legolas' does not look very attractive in that full-page picture. His eyes, in particular, look strangely dead, as though they are made of glass.

The interesting stuff in the article (for me) is on page 71, from Lee Pace onwards, where he talks about using Oberon and The Fisher King as inspirations for Thranduil. It's also great to hear that we'll be seeing the Elk again!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 5:27pm

Post #191 of 253 (552 views)
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Boyens could have said [In reply to] Can't Post

we created a female character because in 2013 , few women would be interested in keeping up with TH films, unless theres a strong female character.

Or : We needed a female presence...Its too much masculinity, thats just not suited for a movie blockbuster in 2013, we require female presence.

Hows that? :P

I agree with your last paragraph then.

PS : strong meaning kicking some serious orc buttsWink

Glorfindela : But what about The Hobbit himself?

Hes the king of cursing!

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Jun 27 2013, 5:32pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


Jun 27 2013, 5:35pm

Post #192 of 253 (543 views)
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I know – was trying to ignore that [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure whether I have heard Martin Freeman using swear words (or perhaps I just haven't noticed), though I have heard he does.

In this article the 'f' word just doesn't serve any purpose, stuck as it is in a supposedly informative article…


In Reply To
Glorfindela : But what about The Hobbit himself?

Hes the king of cursing!



arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 27 2013, 6:11pm

Post #193 of 253 (514 views)
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Story about females only? [In reply to] Can't Post

When I wrote the post you responded to I really tried. I am fairly widely read for a person of my age, and being female, I have read a good deal of stuff aimed at women and girls, by women authors, etc. Can you think of a story that is exclusively about females? I can't. "Little Women" had Laurie. (In case you have not read this classic novel, Laurie is the boy who lives next door). The "Little House" books had Pa (the father of the sisters the story is about). Nancy Drew and her friends had boyfriends (Nancy also had a father, and there were male villains). Vast swaths of "chick lit" include an element of romance, meaning, yes, a male character. Even a hypothetical novel set in a convent would presumably mention the priest that comes to say Mass daily...or beneficiaries of the sisters' charitable works.

In my opinion, this is because men (like women) are everywhere. You can't completely avoid them. And while ME is not our real world, in this regard, in that among the (sic) Men and Elves who inhabit it, about half are female.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 27 2013, 6:12pm

Post #194 of 253 (494 views)
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We are half the potential audience.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 6:13pm

Post #195 of 253 (527 views)
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It was just [In reply to] Can't Post

probably because orlando is used to speak like that, or maybe he wanted to reinforce a point...


Check this conference video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=338IwBMpwxs

He does it oftenWink

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


tolktolk
Lorien

Jun 27 2013, 6:43pm

Post #196 of 253 (509 views)
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I hate to tell you this ... [In reply to] Can't Post

But the entire British acting fraternity swear like troopers (though Martin is in a class of his own!)

There was a funny report by someone in the audience at Ian McKellen's sitcom Vicious who said the sight of Gandalf swearing when he fluffed his lines caused general hilarity.

I know a lot of Americans are more sensitive about this - I always laugh when I see people talking about "f bombs" but it's not really an issue for most British people.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 27 2013, 6:47pm

Post #197 of 253 (478 views)
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That's what I always assumed! // [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 6:48pm

Post #198 of 253 (509 views)
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Edited post - nothing to see here [In reply to] Can't Post

Told ya - nothing to see here. - Altaira


(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 27 2013, 7:21pm)


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 27 2013, 6:56pm

Post #199 of 253 (490 views)
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Let's move on to other topics [In reply to] Can't Post

We're here to talk about Tolkien, not each other. None of us know what each other is thinking, or intending, so whatever "subtext" might be obvious to you might be 100% wrong.


Noria
Gondor

Jun 27 2013, 6:58pm

Post #200 of 253 (486 views)
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Well said arithmancer [In reply to] Can't Post

My experience was the same. Back in the Pleistocene when I was a kid and adolescent, fantasy and science fiction books were written for and primarily read by boys and men, with male protagonists and females as more passive or even secondary characters. That is just how it was. So it was thrilling for me to come across a rare active heroine.

I am not unhappy to see some “feminine energy” interjected into the Hobbit movies and so far don’t see anything objectionable about Tauriel. As always, my final reaction will depend on how it works in the movie.

Nor do I see anything objectionable about Philippa Boyens choice of words.

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