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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
slow beginning to DoS?

trqn13
Bree


Jun 27 2013, 5:15pm

Post #1 of 12 (1122 views)
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slow beginning to DoS? Can't Post

after the relatively slow beginnings to AUJ & FOTR, yes they had to set the scene and establish things, however nearly 45 minutes to get out of the shire both films. Will it take us over 30 mins until we see the Legolas "don't think I won't kill you dwarf" scene?

"Give me your name, Horse Master, and I shall give you mine"


Shagrat
Gondor

Jun 27 2013, 5:23pm

Post #2 of 12 (597 views)
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I'd say so [In reply to] Can't Post

We'll have a prologue (probably involving Thrain), possibly the carrock, presumably an Orc encounter before they arrive at Beorn's house, meeting Beorn, entrance to Mirkwood, spiders, possible Gandalf/White Council material. I fail to see how this could be under 40 minutes really.


Lindele
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 5:53pm

Post #3 of 12 (530 views)
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I sure hope so [In reply to] Can't Post

...and how is Prologue, Beorn, Mirkwood and Spiders in 30 minutes slow? Seems too rushed to me.


(This post was edited by Lindele on Jun 27 2013, 5:54pm)


Angharad73
Rohan


Jun 27 2013, 6:09pm

Post #4 of 12 (518 views)
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A lot happens... [In reply to] Can't Post

...before we get to that scene, I think. And I'm not counting any prologue.

The Dwarves have to get off the Carrock and to Beorn's house. Then they have to get well into Mirkwood, Bombur has to fall into the enchanted river, they have to get caught up with the spiders... And that's just what is in the book - PJ might add some stuff. I wouldn't call that a slow start really. It's going to be quite action-packed, I think.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jun 27 2013, 9:25pm

Post #5 of 12 (351 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot to put in the film
Off the carrock
into Beorn's and all that that happens there
Off to Mirkwood
Departure of Gandalf
Enchanted River scene
White Stag
Spiders
Captured by Thranduil
Escape from Mirkwood
Laketown
Journey to Erebor and into the Lonely Mountain
in the meantime: Dol Guldor and those scenes.

That is 12 distinct things that are going to happen. at 10 minutes a piece that would put the film at 120 minutes (2 hours) and that's not with any fluff. So yeah. I'd say it's going to be packed.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Ffnir
Rohan


Jun 28 2013, 12:26am

Post #6 of 12 (246 views)
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I suspect the white stag thing to be in the EE // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Jun 28 2013, 1:13am

Post #7 of 12 (236 views)
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but then what could that elven guard be pointing to in the trailer??!? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jun 28 2013, 2:50am

Post #8 of 12 (267 views)
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An estimation of timing. (Pointless, long and annoying post with plot spoilers). [In reply to] Can't Post

If we don't get a prologue, then we'd start on the Carrock, with Gandalf explaining that they were lucky that the eagles just happened to be disturbed by all the noise and flames, and came to have a look, and that they don't normally interfere, but because they hate the orcs and they owed him a favour, they didn't mind helping out - although they wouldn't take them any farther east.

After that, we have the complex way that Gandalf introduces the company to the slightly dangerous Beorn - even truncated, that means possibly 10 minutes, although they could use him telling the tale of their travels to include the explanation of the eagles, to save the clunky exposition at the beginning.

Then there's all the stuff in Beorn's house, and Beorn's trip to check their story - another 10 minutes.

Then we have them setting off and entering Mirkwood, and Gandalf leaving - wouldn't need much time, but quite a lot happens before they get to the river - they'd need time to build the creepy, sinister nature of Mirkwood, and to establish the dwarves unsuitability to it - shooting at the black squirrels, the eyes at night, the declining morale and increasing tension within the group. That's going to take 10 minutes minimum, surely. Then, crossing the river - the deer, the royal hunt, the disaster with Bombur etc., and their attempt to find out where they are. Another 10 minutes.

After which, trying to get help from the elves three times. That's another 5 minutes, bringing us to the point where Thorin steps into the the feast and it goes dark and everyone gets lost in the forest. That must be the point where Legolas confronts Thorin, so it would occur about 45 minutes in, with the absence of a prologue, or the Dol Guldur stuff.

We need at least 10 minutes for Bilbo to rescue them all from the spiders and then get captured by the elves, and realise that Thorin's missing. I'd say 15 minutes to cover their incarceration, Thorin defying Thranduil and Bilbo sneaking about, following the elves, stealing food and getting to know the halls. The escape needs 5 minutes - to see Bilbo persuading the reluctant Dwarves, Tauriel and Galion (?) getting drunk and passing out, and the whole barrel escape. Getting from this to Laketown, however, will be fairly quick - say three minutes, as all the dwarves are in barrels, so no-one except Bilbo is going to be doing anything much - say 2 minutes for this.

Laketown: - freeing the bedraggled dwarves and their entrance into the town, acceptance, feasting etc, and their provisioning, and some context about the town's characters and introduction to Bard - I would imagine this needs quite a bit of time - 20 minutes? before they are on their way to the mountain. A 3 minute montage should get them to the door. That's one hour and 40 minutes so far.

Then comes the crucial scene - A bit of stuff before they get the door open, and then Bilbo going down the tunnel, and his conversation with Smaug and close escape - 15 minutes, perhaps, followed by the chaos as Bilbo persuades them to get in the tunnel and shut the door and Smaug attempts to blast them and flies off to Laketown - 5 minutes, then the attack on Laketown and Smaug's death - a big scene, so will need at least 20 minutes to establish what's happening, and show the scale of it. That comes to 2 hours and 20 minutes. Add a 5 minute intro/prologue and and some kind of closing piece - another 5 minutes, and you have a 2 and a half hour film.

Although we need to add Gandalf in, and we need to put in something that explains why he goes off at that point. So, some kind of message or clue or information reaches him while they're at Beorn's - or from the eagles? and then he's got to meet up with the others and decide to attack Dol Guldur. That's going to be another 10 minutes at least, and if they include the battle, then I think they'll leave the death of Smaug out of the film, but show him poised over Laketown, which means we can take 15 minutes back, so we're up to 2 hours, 25 minutes, plus the battle and aftermath - 20 minutes? - about two and three quarter hours total film time, with the third film covering the attack on Lake Town and death of Smaug - a good start to the film, Gandalf setting off for Erebor and meeting up with Thranduil on the way, the elves' and Lake Towners setting off for the mountain, the conflict with Thorin, Bilbo's sabotage. We also have, possibly, Gollum deciding to leave the mountains and search for Baggins, and the Necromancer secretly retreating to Mordor and out-manoeuvring the White Council, with the Battle of the 5 Armies as the climax, and Bilbo's battle with Lobelia as the epilogue.

That sounds OK for two films, and to answer the question, I'd say at least 40 minutes before Thorin meets Legolas.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 28 2013, 12:36pm

Post #9 of 12 (138 views)
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Suggestions, with same spoilers and some Movie Spoilers. [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see some time savings in your outline.

1) A long explanation from Gandalf to about Eagles? I very much doubt this is happening! More like "Ok team, The Eagles put us down near the home of a Person of Importance who can help resupply us." Others, "Let's go!"
2) We will not have the introduction scene of the book. Not in full, and I would guess not in truncated form. It will be adapted, meaning the writers will have some other way to manage the introduction.
3) But we will get bears, the sense of "somewhat dangerous", and some time spent at Beorn's.
4) Then yes, we will have Gandalf's leave-taking and the Dwarves in Mirkwood.
5) Bombur is in, as is Bilbo climbing the trees.
6) But I would be less sure about much time spent on squirrels or the hunt.
7) I would guess the three visits to elf circles will not make it in, especially as it appears Thorin is present for the spiders. Which saves all kinds of time as there is no need to make a big deal of him missing, when he is not.
8) Spiders next.
9) And then Legolas/capture by the Elves. leading to a confrontation between Thorin and Thranduil.
10) I can see some time spent on the captivity (but mostly, this would be Bilbo figuring out the escape route, IMO).
11) I will not hold my breath waiting for Tauriel to pass out from drink. Wink Aside from it not fitting the character as she has been presented thus far in released materials, I believe she discovers the escape in some mini-scene that has been released. For which, she would need to be sober enough to walk, run, and speak clearly.
12) The escape will not take 3 minutes. This is one place you are undercounting. All indications are that the barrels will be chased by Elves and Orcs, which sequence will take more time. And the Dwarves will be visible and doing things in them, as they will not have the lids on so it will be (depending on the tastes of the viewer) a wild ride or an OTT actionfest.
13) I think your Laketown time could be roughly on target, but it will play out differently in the beginning owing to the chase. But we will certainly meet Bard and the Master.
14) I agree with the Mountain stuff, except...
15) The scene with shutting the door and then Smaug blasting the Mountain will be expanded into a bigger deal. Dwarves will be outside the passage, will need to run for it.ward off the Dragon, we'll have suspence over whether they make it,and the scene will end with the Dwarves alive but trapped inside, and the Dragon, in a snit, flying off towards Laketown,
15) I do not agree Smaug will be killed in Movie 2. This will save a lot of time (for Movie 2, this would move the destruction of Laketown and Bard's feat to Movie 3 where I expect it will get an expansive treatment).

So, with the time saved in this manner, what will we get? My guesses - definitely some Gandalf/Radagast scenes continuing the WC plotline. These would include a visit to the High Fells and to Dol Guldur. Introduction of Bolg and Thrain (no idea how, but given what we know of the casting and comments of the filmmakers, this seems to be the case. Perhaps this will tie in to the WC story somehow, as it is Gandalf who announces the arrival of Bolg and his army in the book).

I think something establishing the Elves of Mirkwood is likely, also - scenes of the Elves that explain to us who the characters are, and how the darkening of Greenwood has impacted the kingdom.


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jun 28 2013, 4:46pm

Post #10 of 12 (110 views)
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How many words do I have to write before they let me out of Rivendell? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was assuming admittedly more in the spirit of optimism and eternal hope, than from observed reality - that Mr Jackson and co were still going to film the Hobbit story - you know, the one from that book. That's what my estimated timings were based on - I know that's foolish.

Anyway, there still needs to be some explanation of the eagles' unwillingness to fly them all the way there - as I said, they can fit this into the Beorn scene, as the dwarves are being gradually introduced in pairs, so we don't need extra time for this. (Incidentally, by putting this explanation in, Mr Jackson will have cleverly put right not only objections to The Hobbit eagle appearance, but will also fix the ongoing objection to their use in LOTR, thus making LOTR even better than they already are - in which case the Oscar people should just post out another one, as it really should have had twelve.)

1-3) Anyway, so that's, say 4 minutes for a prologue, then 10 to get them sitting comfortably in Beorn's house. Then exposition and time to set up the next stage of the story during their stay there - another 10.

4-7) I do think you need to set up Mirkwood as a dangerous place - also because it's new. In the Two Towers, I noticed they spent a lot of time setting the scene for Rohan, so we understood the later scenes. Mirkwood's less complicated, but it needs at least 10 minutes to get to the river from Beorn's house, and they need to establish the dangers - the eyes at night, the lack of food - attempt to hunt squirrels and them - alongside everything else - being inedible. They need to be hungry, fed up and quarrelsome when they get to the river. Bombur falling - and their failure to interpret Bilbo's report from the tree - provides the final straw that makes them ignore Gandalf's advice and stray from the path.

I also can't believe they'll leave the magical English folk references out - the Royal Hunt, the river, the white deer and the mysterious feasts - because they are opportunities to add atmosphere and get to the soul of the book.

8) Spiders - a key part of the story - the first time that Bilbo saves the day and proves to be braver than he thought. Also very creepy and horrific, so worth spending 10 minutes on. Having Thorin go missing before this point means that he's less grateful to Bilbo for the rescue, and doesn't take part in the bond that Bilbo begins to form with the dwarves. Keeping him aloof from the others makes him more of a dangerous loose canon - as he proves to be later on. Of course Mr Jackson's already blown that one, by making Thorin beholden to Bilbo for his life - something that makes his later behaviour very unlikely - dwarves being very loyal to those that have helped them, generally.

9-10) The capture by the elves can be very quick, but you still need time to develop Thranduil's enmity towards Thorin, and vica versa, and to explore this new culture.

11) The only point of the captain of the guard in the book, is to fall asleep and lose the keys. Tauriel's only job is to do this. OK, as they've chosen a female character who, because of Hollywood sexism, will not be allowed to get bladdered, and being a typical soldier, that leaves her only one likely vice - so perhaps instead of getting drunk, she could be busy snogging her 'friend' Galion, having snuck off with him to a shady tree, leaving the coast clear for the escape. Then she can still be sober when she discovers the escape. I'm sure they won't do this, because it is against the 'insert pointless female warrior into story' screen writing rules, but it is extremely condescending and sexist to have female characters in fiction who aren't allowed to be a bit rubbish at their jobs sometimes. True equality is when both men and women are equally incompetent - just like in real life.

12) I'm aware that Mr Jackson has chosen to ignore the whole point of the barrel escape - it is uncomfortable and undignified, and very nearly kills some of them - allowing the resentment - and ingratitude towards Bilbo to continue all the way to the mountain. Instead we're getting the kind of fun ride that an adventurous dwarf would pay good money for at Alton Towers. A key theme of the book is that Bilbo, despite saving the day on several occasions, is still not appreciated - his eventual acceptance within the group is hard-won, which makes his willingness to sacrifice it (by giving the Arkenstone to Thranduil) easily the bravest thing he does in the entire story. So, anyway, I've seen the production videos, so I know that all that subtlety is to be sacrificed for yet another OTT action sequence and yet another key plot point discarded.

15) Yes, I expect that, yet again, they're going to chuck out the subtlety and yet another key plot development, for the sake of making the dwarves look better than they are, and tying in with the needs of Transformers viewers who have stumbled in to see 'cool stuff'. Also, potentially detracting from the fact that it's Bilbo who saves the day - by being the burglar who no-one but Gandalf knew he was, and spotting Smaug's weakness. So, yes, more time needed for explosions etc.

15?) I did not say that Smaug would be killed - if they are putting the battle with the Necromancer into this film, I think they will leave his death and the battle at Lake Town to form a spectacular beginning to film 3. At least that's how I'd like to see it. I don't think they'll have the battle at Dol Guldur, Smaug's death and the Battle of 5 Armies all in the last film, though - that would be too much (although the 'battle' at Dol Guldur is really just a feint by Sauron, of course, by which he outwits the White Council and buys himself time to come to power). It wouldn't surprise me if that key point is also sacrificed for the sake of spectacle, though.



In Reply To
I can see some time savings in your outline.

1) A long explanation from Gandalf to about Eagles? I very much doubt this is happening! More like "Ok team, The Eagles put us down near the home of a Person of Importance who can help resupply us." Others, "Let's go!"
2) We will not have the introduction scene of the book. Not in full, and I would guess not in truncated form. It will be adapted, meaning the writers will have some other way to manage the introduction.
3) But we will get bears, the sense of "somewhat dangerous", and some time spent at Beorn's.
4) Then yes, we will have Gandalf's leave-taking and the Dwarves in Mirkwood.
5) Bombur is in, as is Bilbo climbing the trees.
6) But I would be less sure about much time spent on squirrels or the hunt.
7) I would guess the three visits to elf circles will not make it in, especially as it appears Thorin is present for the spiders. Which saves all kinds of time as there is no need to make a big deal of him missing, when he is not.
8) Spiders next.
9) And then Legolas/capture by the Elves. leading to a confrontation between Thorin and Thranduil.
10) I can see some time spent on the captivity (but mostly, this would be Bilbo figuring out the escape route, IMO).
11) I will not hold my breath waiting for Tauriel to pass out from drink. Wink Aside from it not fitting the character as she has been presented thus far in released materials, I believe she discovers the escape in some mini-scene that has been released. For which, she would need to be sober enough to walk, run, and speak clearly.
12) The escape will not take 3 minutes. This is one place you are undercounting. All indications are that the barrels will be chased by Elves and Orcs, which sequence will take more time. And the Dwarves will be visible and doing things in them, as they will not have the lids on so it will be (depending on the tastes of the viewer) a wild ride or an OTT actionfest.
13) I think your Laketown time could be roughly on target, but it will play out differently in the beginning owing to the chase. But we will certainly meet Bard and the Master.
14) I agree with the Mountain stuff, except...
15) The scene with shutting the door and then Smaug blasting the Mountain will be expanded into a bigger deal. Dwarves will be outside the passage, will need to run for it.ward off the Dragon, we'll have suspence over whether they make it,and the scene will end with the Dwarves alive but trapped inside, and the Dragon, in a snit, flying off towards Laketown,
15) I do not agree Smaug will be killed in Movie 2. This will save a lot of time (for Movie 2, this would move the destruction of Laketown and Bard's feat to Movie 3 where I expect it will get an expansive treatment).

So, with the time saved in this manner, what will we get? My guesses - definitely some Gandalf/Radagast scenes continuing the WC plotline. These would include a visit to the High Fells and to Dol Guldur. Introduction of Bolg and Thrain (no idea how, but given what we know of the casting and comments of the filmmakers, this seems to be the case. Perhaps this will tie in to the WC story somehow, as it is Gandalf who announces the arrival of Bolg and his army in the book).

I think something establishing the Elves of Mirkwood is likely, also - scenes of the Elves that explain to us who the characters are, and how the darkening of Greenwood has impacted the kingdom.



arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 29 2013, 2:00pm

Post #11 of 12 (52 views)
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Not sexism, common sense [In reply to] Can't Post

If Jackson's vision included an army of Wood-Elves that included substantial numbers of female Elves, and then depicted the males as bumbling incompetents and the females as amazing fighters, sure, that would be unfair.

But it appears that Tauriel as a female member of the Guard, is an exception in the Jackson ME movieverse. Common sense dictates that she is therefore exceptionally competent. Otherwise she would not have been permitted to join the Guard, and certainly would not have risen to hold high rank in it. Further, we will have Thranduil (according to publicity materials, renowned for his fighting prowess) and Legolas of the amazing warrior stunts, holding up the side of the males.


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jun 29 2013, 2:58pm

Post #12 of 12 (56 views)
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Nothing to do with fighting. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's to do with lapses - Thranduil in the book has major character flaws - a bit too keen on jewels. No reason why the captain of the guard shouldn't be a competent soldier, but capable of underestimating the strength of a batch of special wine. It's part of the nature of the human frailties that Tolkien gave to his creations.

It shows great respect to a character to show their failures and their attempts to rectify them. Hopefully the film makers will take this approach - but I have my doubts.

 
 

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