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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
As promised a SPOLIER heavy look at the Empire DOS Issue, needless to say those 'appendices' are more detailed then I remeber...
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DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 27 2013, 9:34am

Post #151 of 253 (759 views)
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Thanks for the scans! Now, are the Mirkwood spiders Shelob's or Ungoliant's spawn? [In reply to] Can't Post

The article says that the spiders of Mirkwood are the spawn of Shelob, as in the book:


Quote
"Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world."


Yet. Radagast said that they were the spawn of Ungoliant in AUJ. While Shelob and the spiders of Mirkwood have a common ancestor (Ungoliant), whose spawn are they actually of?

And we know that these Spiders will talk in a telepathic manner - did they get that from Shelob or Ungoliant.

(Trivial questions that need answers!)

WinkLaugh


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 9:41am

Post #152 of 253 (744 views)
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Its a direct line [In reply to] Can't Post

So I'd say both.


“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 12:04pm

Post #153 of 253 (736 views)
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this is absolutely appalling news [In reply to] Can't Post

''twee'' somebody called the story of Bilbo twee!! ! *totally speechless* this is far far worse than I dared imagine. and he has the effrontery to joke about it.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 27 2013, 12:30pm

Post #154 of 253 (679 views)
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Tolkien's aborted 1960 revision... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tolkien did write a more adult version of The Hobbit to bring it into line with LOTR. However, he showed this to a friend (possibly C. S. Lewis), who dissuaded him from publishing it. (I do know there was a small rewrite of The Hobbit before this, for example making Gollum a less 'noble' character than he was in the first edition of the book.)

We'll probably never know what Tolkien intended to put in the 'adult' version, but – again as far as I am aware – Legolas was never mentioned in this context.



Tolkien only completed two chapters of the revision that you are thinking of. He outlined a bit more, taking the story just past Rivendell, but that is where he stopped. We don't know if or how Legolas would have been accounted for. It is possible that he might have been made an envoy to the White Council, but we will probably never know.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 12:32pm

Post #155 of 253 (699 views)
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well its finally happened [In reply to] Can't Post

not ONE word about Bilbo and his journey. He is totally superfluous to his own story. Hes just plonked in the film for martin Freeman to justify his wage packet. Not ONE word about whats going to happen to Bilbo. call me old fashioned but is this film about Bilbo at all??? no doubt somebody will say, well this film is called DOS its not supposed to be about Bilbo and his ''twee tale'', its about Smaug/Tauriel/Thorin/Legolas/Azog/Bolg/Bard/Bards family/Bards cat Tiddles. and I say *********** to that.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 27 2013, 1:16pm

Post #156 of 253 (637 views)
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Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand that the Balrog was given as an explanation in the books, I am not debating that.

The movie shows a rampage, yes. This demoralizes the leaderless Orcs and they flee deep inside Moria. (Just as Azog's defeat of Thror before threatened to turn the battle into a rout of the Dwarves, before Thorin removed him from the combat and rallied his army.) It is indeed hopeless for the orcs at this point to consider a sortie to re-engage and defeat the Dwarf army, and even if it is not, there is not a leader with the nerve to make that risky call.

The Dwarves for their part, count their losses, dispose of their dead, and tend to their wounded. Having done so, they have the choice to enter the mines and engage the Orcs there again the following day (a different proposition than fighting them in the open, with or without a Balrog thrown into the mix) or to leave. They choose the latter, and given their heavy losses, it is a reasonable choice. From what is said in the film, it seems it is at this point that they decide to settle elsewhere, as Balin credits Thorin with having "done honorably" by his people by building for them a new life in this new place. (I realize this is also a departure from the book timeline, like I indicated, I am discussing the events as they are sketched out by AUJ, where in my opinion they do hang together).


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 27 2013, 1:26pm

Post #157 of 253 (660 views)
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Yes, it's about Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post

...and the dwarves and the dragon. And Gandalf. And Mirkwood, spiders, barrels... Butterflies above the trees. Beorn.

These things we already know about. The central character is Bilbo and to get the actor they wanted they re-arranged their whole timetable - remember?

Deep breath... This is not the film. Someone, somewhere has decided to devote the first wave of publicity to the new characters and a journalist - who may not even have read the book and doesn't appear to care about it - has written some fluff for a magazine. And that's all this is. It's not so long ago that everyone was worried about a certain axe which, as it turned out, played no part in AUJ at all.

This is not the film. Nothing has happened. For my part, I'm going to wait and judge the film by the film.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 1:53pm

Post #158 of 253 (624 views)
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Given [In reply to] Can't Post

jacksons latest exploits with big creatures like the oliphaunt and legolas circus moment, i wouldnt be surprised if we found out the dwarves will jump on smaug from the rocky hills and attempt some vendetta....

Besides, there seem sto be a trend here...many iconic moments from the book are being turned into half haour long atcion sequences by jackson...so smaug vs dwarves will be the big prize, apart from the destruction of laketown and the battle.


Malickfan . i hope you got some sleep and dreamt of 3D mucus, Fluffy and evangeline lilly wearing a xena bikini , jumping all around you delivering death to everyone. Tongue


Elenor : I share your apprehension. I am about to read the text form the magazine, maybe theres some bilbo in there...

But like malickfan said, these movie should be called The Thorin and Everyone Else Wink

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jun 27 2013, 1:58pm

Post #159 of 253 (655 views)
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I actually think its key. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not think you are being pedantic at all. For a pedant like JRRT to offer such an observation is key to understanding his view of his relationship with middle earth and its various elements. Tolkien as we all know was not a professional novelist the matter of ME was this rather crusty don expressing his innermost thoughts and feelings. He laboured over ever word in the LOTR, he spent a lifetime evolving the book of lost tales and all its variants.

The Hobbit was quite different a book written for his three boys whilst he was working on the Quenta Noldorwina. M E was such a powerful driver the Hobbit got caught in the branch acquistiveness he displayed in his writing. That is why the inherit contradiction "I wrote this but I thought it was poor" makes sense. It wasn't invested in his mind with the labour of love of his other writings but he could not resist placing Bilbo in middle earth. As Christopher has said it is more important for where it took his father than as a story in itself. Its a wonderful story, which whilst some here adore, the author thought was poorly executed.

I am pleased Sir Peter Jackson has shifted one element of the argument. Some people here have expressed the view that he has been disingenuous in offering his affection and dedication to Tolkien and then gone about making changes. I have heard from those who work with him and extras from the movies. He is known to be down to earth entirely straightforward and passionate about getting these films right from his point of view.

It sits well with him to own up that whilst some on one ring.net may not like it, he is enjoying making changes. He can make the films he believes and we can chose not like them or his vision of middle earth its more straight forward when everyone is being candid. Despite the oceans of remarks about these films it is rather straightforward.

I am delighted about the allusions to Thrain this could go Bree (hands over key and map its not my destiny)/Battle of A/lost/Incarceration Prologue and then on to a real time meeting with Gandalf in the first act. It can also add depth to Thorins emotional landscape beyond the trite remarks "Whatever were you doing there" when Gandalf explains where he got the ring and the key in the book . Much more in line with Gimli's anguish expressed in the LOTR over Balin's death .

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 27 2013, 2:02pm

Post #160 of 253 (694 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that is very well said, and I agree with all of it (particularly now that I have read the article myself).

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 27 2013, 2:07pm

Post #161 of 253 (621 views)
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Now that I have read the article myself, I have a very different point of view [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me (with all due respect) that malick pulled out all of the very worst stuff and gave a pretty distorted view of the picture painted by this article. The fact that the very first thing you see is one of my favorite scenes in all of Tolkien's writings -- Bilbo and butterflies -- immediately puts me in a better state of mind. But just overall, having read the whole thing myself, I feel much better about what we are likely to get. Yes some of it is likely to be distressing, and I'm still worried about the Dwarf/Smaug confrontation, but I'm actually quite excited to see where they go with this, and a lot of it could be quite good, and even somewhat Tolkienesque.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 2:42pm

Post #162 of 253 (631 views)
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so basically you are saying [In reply to] Can't Post

the Hobbit isnt all that good and Tolkien thought so too, therefore its perfectly justifiable for a thoroughly nice guy (according to some random extras from the movie) to be perfectly at liberty to discard the story wholesale, due to its shoddy construction and trite Language.




my compliments to the chef


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 2:59pm

Post #163 of 253 (604 views)
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I take it you are a female [In reply to] Can't Post

member of the audience, Elanor.

What does this comment concerning Tauriel , tell you :

"Tauriel was a complete addition for filmic reasons...You need another energy in there...there are young woman watchng these films, presumably."

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Jun 27 2013, 2:59pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Jun 27 2013, 3:14pm

Post #164 of 253 (570 views)
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That it is. [In reply to] Can't Post

It still is very much about Bilbo. The thing is this story (which I've read now on my iPad a couple of times) is about introducing people to the other characters they will meet. Trying to form a bond between them and the audience now and I'm sure comic-con will be the same. The article was pretty well done and I'm excited to see the movie. I'm sure there will be things I don't like and things I like. I didn't read anything that I felt was an insult to Tolkien.



Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jun 27 2013, 3:18pm

Post #165 of 253 (576 views)
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It tells me... [In reply to] Can't Post

that the films are being aimed at young females in the audience who are obviously going to these movies to a) drawl over the "hot" Dwarves and b) want to be like Tauriel when they grow up... Tongue


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jun 27 2013, 3:19pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 27 2013, 3:20pm

Post #166 of 253 (579 views)
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The magazine is now available from all good stockists. / [In reply to] Can't Post

If anyone still wants it, that is. Wink


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jun 27 2013, 3:20pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 27 2013, 3:23pm

Post #167 of 253 (568 views)
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Thanks for that [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't read the article itself yet, just the outpouring of angst...

Perhaps, having refused to judge the film by the article, the next task is not judging the article by the thread!


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 27 2013, 3:27pm

Post #168 of 253 (562 views)
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Read it [In reply to] Can't Post

My reaction to the article was very different than my reaction to other people's reaction to the article.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 27 2013, 3:41pm

Post #169 of 253 (538 views)
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Both [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant, you could say that her spawn are the spawn of Ungoliant.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Elessar
Valinor


Jun 27 2013, 3:44pm

Post #170 of 253 (534 views)
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No problem [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a good read when you get the chance. Cool

That does seem the next logical step. lol



Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 27 2013, 3:48pm

Post #171 of 253 (554 views)
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With all do respect [In reply to] Can't Post

It probably is more helpful to respond to what someone actually says than to a gross and inaccurate simplification of what someone says.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 27 2013, 3:49pm

Post #172 of 253 (529 views)
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How often do you say you're... [In reply to] Can't Post

The spawn of your grandparents? Wink

I expect that's the case though, and the forest is probably full of spawns from both Spiders. I was just trying to distract everyone really. Angelic


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 27 2013, 3:59pm

Post #173 of 253 (515 views)
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Will do! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 27 2013, 4:00pm

Post #174 of 253 (509 views)
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I tend not to say that I'm the spawn of anyone.... ;-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 4:08pm

Post #175 of 253 (518 views)
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yes I am a female [In reply to] Can't Post

and I never imagine myself as a ruthless ninja assasin. Wink
what it tells me is that either PC world has run mad or its a clever marketing ploy to shoehorn in some eye candy, not for the girls, but for the boys. Cool

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