Since we've already jumped into fate in the Love, etc thread, (kicked off by Wiz's brilliant foray), I'll just launch into geopolitics today. It was a lovely bit by Furincurunir. We wandered a bit wide in that opening thread there. But we didn't mention rabbits. Or mail-order items. No Dragons showed up either. Too bad.

Geography: there's a taste of most of Beleriand in this story: Dorthonion, Brethil, Doriath, Nargothrond, the Feanorian realms (by reference), Angband, Anfauglith, Ossiriand (tail end of the tale), even a special guest appearance by Gondolin. The only notables left out are Hithlum and Falas. Would the story seem as epic without taking place over so much territory? Well it makes it a 'Beleriand Epic' doesn't it? Gives it that patina of truly lost tales, as all of those lands disappear as a result of this tale.

Questions:
1. Does it seem shocking, even implausibly contradictory, that Thingol hates the Noldor for being Kinslayers and outlaws their language over it, but he has no compunction about becoming a Kinslayer to get his daughter back? Amazing what a personal stake will do isn't it?

2. How would history have been different if the SOF had succeeded in uniting all the Elven realms? Would they have been able to stand up to Morgoth as an empire rather than an alliance? It seems a very non-Elf way to live though, more of a Morgoth empire-building way of life. Plus of course with one leader needed - might have been issues between the brothers. The High King of the Noldor title seems like it was a bit of a polite nicety, and that their natural style was a loose alliance and not a rigid hierarchy. I think JRTT's own views on politics saw the looser order of control as less corrupt and more human (Elf) responsive and moral than a conglomerate would ever be.

3. Or was it unrealistic for the SOF to think they could get other countries under their rule through offensive means? It's hard to imagine Thingol giving in and submitting Doriath to their rule, or Cirdan, or Fingon. They can dream if they want, but were they being delusional? Yup I think so. I think especially immortal beings are simply not cut out for a life of such (static, if one IS immortal) political control. Surely in Thingol's case it would have led to resistance and war - Thingol would probably have lost, but probably would have been destroyed in the process.

4. Where's chessmaster Galadriel in all this? I can't imagine her letting Finrod be dethroned if she were present. If she was in Doriath instead, did she have no role there in dissuading Thingol from pondering war on her people? I assumed she was still in Doriath. If Thingol does not listen that much to Melian here (at least he doesn't kill Beren), not sure if he would have listened to Galadriel. I do wonder though, if she made anything of Beren's words, when he showed the Ring of Barahir held high in Thingol's hall; I would think she was there, maybe sitting with Melian. I checked A.R. but I don't see any edited reference to Galadriel or her presence there, nor her reaction to this man bearing her brother's ring. (IF she was in Nargothrond, I wonder if Finrod shared the reason for his feeling of disquiet, reminding her of his premonition...but especially with that bit with the crown getting tossed on the ground, I feel like she wasn't there.)

5. As a result of the story of Beren & Luthien, Nargothrond loses its king and becomes highly xenophobic, both Nargothrond and Doriath become enemies of the SOF, and Celegorm and Curufin are expelled by their people. All of these changes come about through personal actions and vendettas, not conflicting state interests or ideologies. Beren & Luthien, notably, don't get involved in vendettas--they don't call for revenge against the C-brothers. Their theft of the Silmaril ignites an alliance and huge battle in the next chapter, but they take no part in it. How do individuals act as catalysts for sweeping political change while remaining outside the mix? Excellent observation here CG...I would say that because of the fateful nature of Beren and Luthien themselves things happen around them, even if they don't intend it. Their union changes Middle Earth in the short term and the long term! Not that it was their intention at all...they wanted to be together, that's all. Real life couples who marry for love have politically changed the world - Henry and Eleanor...Nicholas and Alexandra, to name two prominent examples that spring readily to mind.

To me, he seems so very human. He's all over the place - he's hypocritical; he's angry; he's overprotective; he's loving; he's cautious; he's proud. He's pretty much a mixture of everything at one time or another, just like pretty much any real person I know.

I really like him because it's easy to root for him, but also easy to root against him when heeded. I understand his desire to marry his daughter off to someone of greater standing. I adore the way he takes in Turin and does everything within his power to help him and his family. I detest his treatment of the dwarves and his sending Beren on a suicide mission.

Overall, I think he's a great character, and one of the most realistic.

On another tangent, I always thought Thingol's hate of the Noldor's kinslaying could have been an excuse to openly shun them; his real reason was the Noldor were becoming too powerful, and he was beginning to feel threatened by them.