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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
As promised a SPOLIER heavy look at the Empire DOS Issue, needless to say those 'appendices' are more detailed then I remeber...
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Grey Havens

Jun 26 2013, 7:07pm

Post #76 of 253 (937 views)
Explanation [In reply to] Can't Post

The movie does explain it. The Orcs fled, the Dwarves had such heavy casualties ('beyond the count of grief', if memory serves) the few survivors can easily be understood not to have had the wherewithal to carry the fight to the Orcs further.


Jun 26 2013, 7:12pm

Post #77 of 253 (935 views)
Can I just apolgise for writing 'SPOLIER' not Spoiler in the title thread...apollogies if you thought SPOLIER was a new character [In reply to] Can't Post

I swear my spelling is getting worse...

This is not a very interesting signature is it?


Jun 26 2013, 7:14pm

Post #78 of 253 (924 views)
But Thrain is at the battle [In reply to] Can't Post

Apparently he went missing during it. It would perhaps make sense if he spotted Azog being dragged back in and tried to follow him inside. Possibly he could glimpse the Balrog inside, which exacerbates his grief and madness.


Jun 26 2013, 7:19pm

Post #79 of 253 (1019 views)
I thought this was a joke at first [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow. So my hopes of seeing J.R.R. Tolkiens The Hobbit on the big screen have been crushed under the expanding ego.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jun 26 2013, 8:11pm)

Tol Eressea

Jun 26 2013, 7:24pm

Post #80 of 253 (961 views)
Ill make you a bet [In reply to] Can't Post

within the first 15-20 minutes we will be blessed with Azogs presence and his minions.

They will chase the company through the valley well into beorns territory...

Beorn will confronte them and kill some of them , but Azog escapes...

Enraged Beorn will chase the company into his own home.

The travel to mirkwood and through mirkwood will be interwooven with Azogs angry speeches about how he wants them dead and seeing them attacking mirkwood's borders , with legolas and tauriel...

They will chase them all the way to Laketown...ending in a climatic battle scene between tauriel and the elves ending up saving the men of laketown under attack...

Dont forget the popcorn!

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Jun 26 2013, 7:37pm

Post #81 of 253 (886 views)
My bad [In reply to] Can't Post

I should've realized that.

"I have found it is in the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keep the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir. You are not alone. If ever you should need my help, I will come." -Lady Galadriel.


Jun 26 2013, 7:41pm

Post #82 of 253 (898 views)
it's hard [In reply to] Can't Post

to see something you really like changed into something else, but but and I say this with the lightest touch, you are comparing someone making a movie for entertainment, a product, to someone claiming the One Ring, a device used for evil to enslave and twist all that is green and good and would consume all life.

I'm not trying to say you can't feel that way, believe me I'm still haunted by the Jurassic Park sequels, butttttttttt your analogy seems a little strong no? Angelic

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Jun 26 2013, 7:50pm

Post #83 of 253 (933 views)
Wow! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's obvious you don't like these adaptations but that is no reason to insult Peter's physique!

Very not cool!


Jun 26 2013, 7:59pm

Post #84 of 253 (902 views)
I',m no big fan of AUJ but I agree that was uncalled for [In reply to] Can't Post

If anything its a good sign, PJ's films (imo) mysteriously got worse as he lost weight (Compare King Kong and The Lovely Bones to Fellowship) so perhaps he's back to his old self

This is not a very interesting signature is it?


Jun 26 2013, 7:59pm

Post #85 of 253 (855 views)
Was it a victory then? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just re-watched that scene. Basically Balin said after Azog got his arm sliced off, that the dwarves rallied and drove the orcs back, and the enemy was defeated. However, no feast because their dead was beyond the count (of grief). Afterwards, he was only concerned about finding a new leader.

Now, how can the orcs be defeated, if they still controlled Moria?! PJ never explained where the Dwarves went after the Battle... I assume they continued being nomads? Hopefully this will be explained in either the EE or in DOS.


Jun 26 2013, 8:07pm

Post #86 of 253 (876 views)
Does that matter, though? [In reply to] Can't Post

It wouldn't be out of character for Thranduil, and I'd relish seeing him outclass Legolas at swordplay. I'm less miffed about that superlative than I am about the elves wielding katanas and being described as ninjas. I have nothing against Feudal Japan, but frankly I'm sick of it leeching its way into European high fantasy designs. There are plenty of forms that sit better with the cultures which directly inspired Tolkien's legendarium.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951

Forum Admin / Moderator

Jun 26 2013, 8:13pm

Post #87 of 253 (866 views)
Personal insult edited out. [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's keep the criticisms focused on what is or is not in the movies.


Jun 26 2013, 8:36pm

Post #88 of 253 (832 views)
Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

Hahahaha that made me laugh!! Laugh

In Reply To
The travel to mirkwood and through mirkwood will be interwooven with Azogs angry speeches about how he wants them dead

I'll definitely be needing popcorn for that!

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel


Jun 26 2013, 8:40pm

Post #89 of 253 (848 views)
Just read it all [In reply to] Can't Post

Downloaded my copy to my iPad. It's a really well done article and has me even more excited. We're going to get The Hobbit as we did with AUJ but more as well. From how I took the article what's going to be added will feel like Middle-earth and that excites me. I think based on what was said about Legolas, Tauriel, and Thranduil these three are going to be awesome characters.


Jun 26 2013, 8:45pm

Post #90 of 253 (835 views)
Don't know what the personal insult was [In reply to] Can't Post

But I thought that the OP was a joke too when I first read it. I've come to understand some of the comments better since, but the first read of this was very surprising.


Jun 26 2013, 8:49pm

Post #91 of 253 (853 views)
Tauriel and Lake-town [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
'Yesterday Evangeline Lilly's Tauriel-a young Silvan Elf-resuscitated a dying human girl with a liquid burst of Elvish'-It notes that Lilly bought he fluency in French to the pronoucniation of Sindarin-were the two languages ever linked?

This sounds like Tauriel arrives in Lake-town in time to witness the aftermath of Smaug's attack. Probably not a bad idea.

Laketown-'Contary to the town on stilts of Tolkien's famous illustration the cramped streets are level with the waterline, giving it the dishevelled aspect of a Dickensian Venice, a labyryth of gimcracks walkways, bridges and buildings that stoop beneath the burden of the heavy roofs. Its a foogy cladestine sort of place where things skulk amongst the shadows'.

Either Peter Jackson is not accounting for the fact that lake levels tend to rise and fall or this is an acknowledgement that Long Lake has risen since the town's founding. Bad in the first instance. Acceptable in the second. Either way, Esgaroth sounds more like Fritz Lieber's Lankhmar than the place that Tolkien described.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Jun 26 2013, 9:04pm

Post #92 of 253 (783 views)
Loved reading this Entmaiden [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
And he has his own opinions of what should and should not be in the movies. Just like us.

I was at the One Party in 2004 when Peter and the film crew joined us, and I could see the joy on his face to be with all of us to celebrate the success of the movies. His comment in the Empire article was a shout-out to his fellow fans, acknowledging that we all have differing perspectives, and some of his ideas might not be as well-received.

I remember seeing the wonderful pics and reports from The One Party that year. I had really tried to make it out that year - could not get time off from work! Unsure

Good for you to have been there for it! Thanks for sharing your thoughts too.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Jun 26 2013, 9:10pm

Post #93 of 253 (815 views)
I'm slightly encouraged by these spoilers and snippets. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, it's never going to be a faithful adaption, and that's fine (as much as it can be) with me.

However, I can see where the fears arise. If someone had told me similar spoilers for ROTK 6 months before the film was released; such as:

- Frodo sends Sam away,
- Saruman dies from falling from Orthanc,
- No Dernhelm, Ghan, Grey Company, Prince Imrahil etc.,

then I'd also be worried/concerned.

I may or may not have liked the changes from the text, but overall, ROTK turned out ok. So while these spoilers and snippets might be a cause for concern, in the end, DOS (and TABA) might also turn out to be ok. It's all about perspective - a spoiler (from any type of source) may always dampen ones excitement. Using previous experience with AUJ and the LOTR films, I'm encouraged and excited.


(That's all assuming one likes ROTK, and one is ok with DOS being "ok"). Wink

(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jun 26 2013, 9:13pm)


Jun 26 2013, 9:12pm

Post #94 of 253 (790 views)
I'm okay with ok, if ok means [In reply to] Can't Post

... that there is some stuff that I hate, and other stuff that I really love, and it balances out to okay. Which pretty much has been the case for all four films so far for me.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Jun 26 2013, 9:13pm

Post #95 of 253 (757 views)
I suppose you're right in a way [In reply to] Can't Post

But it is an "analogy". I was comparing an extreme to something small. I wasn't suggesting that what he did was as bad as claiming the ring or that he was evil or anything like that. I was just trying to say that his sudden change from trying his best to follow the books back in LOTR to this whole "enjoying deviating" thing here at the end of filming TH is somewhat similar to Frodo's struggle through the whole journey to keep the ring off until finally at the end he completely gives in and takes the ring for his own. (one could say he uses all the power available to him even though he shouldn't)

But I see what you're saying, perhaps it was a bit strong. Oh well, sorry PJ! Tongue

"I have found it is in the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keep the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir. You are not alone. If ever you should need my help, I will come." -Lady Galadriel.

Tol Eressea

Jun 26 2013, 9:32pm

Post #96 of 253 (762 views)
Why, why, why??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
This quote in particular was interesting to me -

'Jackson has always felt the book lacked a definte confrontation between the dwarves and Smaug. He's rectified that. There will be bombs, inferanl artillery, and one mightily pissed off dragon. 'It gets pretty crazy'.

I've thought for quite a while that the confrontation between the dwarves and Smaug would be bigger than it is in the book. I'm even more confident, now, that Smaug's death will be saved until film 3 and that the dwarves vs. Smaug will be the climax of DOS (possibly with some sort of Dol Guldor climax as well). I am not sure how I feel about bombs and artillery, though.

There are a few things in here that I like, but lots of it looks like drivel.

If the Dwarves were ever planning to confront Smaug themselves, they wouldn't have bothered taking a Burglar with them!!!!! Crazy

"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Jun 26 2013, 9:54pm

Post #97 of 253 (688 views)
reusing earlier action sequences [In reply to] Can't Post

"I have this feeling that PJ is using these films to use some of his previously rejected action sequences from LOTR. For example, the orcs entering Mirkwood was orginally a scene where the Orcs chase the fellowship into Lotheirien. This whole Orcs chasing the company to Laketown may be reusing a scene PJ wanted with a night Warg ambush in Edoras."

This assessment seems very probable to me. Although I probably ought to reserve judgement until the film is released, I cannot help feeling that this shows that PJ & co. make weaker judgements this time around in terms of what to leave in and what to cut. Several of these planned action scenes were cut from LoTR for good reasons, and there were other planned scenes as well, for instance the idea of having orcs chase and battle with Frodo and Sam in the Great River (FoTR), which they fortunately had the sense to leave out. Now it seems like similar scenes will be left in DoS, just for the sake of the action itself. They are probably fun to make for Jackson & co, but to me just seem like lack of discipline in terms of editing the film and shaping the story.

From the brief description of Lake Town in the article it also seems like Jackson has recycled many of the concepts used for the Hobbits' stay in Bree in FoTR, introducing an atmosphere of fear and imminent threat, perhaps also of (moral) decay. I'm not too sure I think this is a good idea to be honest, it just seems such an overly obvious way of conveying the story, but I'll wait and see how it turns out.

Other of the changes that have been signalled, I don't worry about. The elves are an important regional power in the original story, so it's only reasonable that their motives and position gets a fair share of attention in DoS.


Jun 26 2013, 9:59pm

Post #98 of 253 (702 views)
Very true [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point, Eleniel. I'll be ok with it, though, if it's just a beefed up scene of Smaug coming to attack the dwarves. If the dwarves initiate the fight, then that's a problem.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel


Jun 26 2013, 10:03pm

Post #99 of 253 (757 views)
It was probably the first adventure book I'd read that didn't follow the stereotypical plot [In reply to] Can't Post

where the heroes get to fight the bad guy. The originality of it made an impression on me as a sprog - and of course, it grounds the fantastical tale in reality, - because that's exactly what does happen in real life; the heroes fail to confront the baddie and someone totally new steps out of the crowd and finishes him off instead.

It's interesting to read that Mr Jackson has 'rectified' the story's originality and will be giving us the same old cliches we've seen a million times before. This is becoming a theme in these films.


Jun 26 2013, 10:07pm

Post #100 of 253 (706 views)
' It will conclude with one of the 'biggest things' Jackson has ever created' [In reply to] Can't Post

What could this mean? big as in scale? what could be bigger than the battle of Pellenor fields or the destruction of baradur? Will it be the battle at Dol Guldor which will potentially have some mindblowing visuals if we see some real Power and magic from the Necromancer/Gandalf/Galadriel. Or is it simply referring to a large Monster which would obviously be Smaug. hhhhmmm.

'Everywhere I lie theres a dirty great root sticking into my back!'

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