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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 25 2013, 10:38pm
Post #126 of 344
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Now trust me, I'm on the right side--oh, I already used that before.
Beren shares some guilt in this. Tolkien (awkwardly) makes him speak similarly to the Oath, after calling Luthien "above all gold and silver, and beyond all jewels."
Neither rock, nor steel, nor the fires of Morgoth, nor all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms, shall keep from me the treasure that I desire. He's practically begging someone to say, "Are you comparing Luthien to a Silmaril?"
Compare the Feanorian Oath:
Be he for or friend, be he foul or clean, brood of Morgoth or bright Vala, Elda or Maia or Aftercomer; Man yet unborn up Middle-earth, neither law, nor love, nor league of swords, dread nor danger, not Doom itself... (Technically the SOF said "he," which meant Luthien was exempt. Lucky girl!)
I think it's especially troubling that Beren defies "all the powers of the Elf-Kingdoms." And of course, the first thing he did on his quest was seek the help of Nargothrond, an Elf-kingdom. Yet Tolkien never holds Beren accountable for calling up trouble through excess pride, unless it was the loss of his hand holding that Silmaril. I wonder if that was his payback.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 25 2013, 10:42pm
Post #127 of 344
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... is still waiting on those muffins, cg...
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 12:13am
Post #128 of 344
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In the oath do you think is literal? Because the sons of Fëanor purposefully don't try to wrest the Silmaril from Lúthien precisely because she's a woman. I wonder if they would have been this considerate to any other woman, for instance, Haleth, who was a woman but less feminine?
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 12:16am
Post #129 of 344
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There's a lovely passage from that text that I plan to use in the Eärendil discussion. It's a great text that I wish Christopher had used more. Unfortunately, his father found some sort of linguistic mistake in the text that he felt destroyed the integrity of the whole text. I disagree, though.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 12:21am
Post #130 of 344
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That I totally forgot heroin didn't have an 'e' at the end! That's how confused ie become  
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 12:25am
Post #131 of 344
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And to think that we could have. There's a lot less 'epic' in HoME that I wish had made it in. While I will always be thankful for what Christopher did give us, I'll also regret the things he left out. It's too bad that after he finished HoME he didn't embark on a reconstructed Silmarillion in light of all that he had discovered and learned.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 12:28am
Post #132 of 344
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I love to share the parts of HoME that have moved me. I'm glad they do the same for others 
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 26 2013, 2:14am
Post #133 of 344
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After the War of Wrath, the Silmarils burned the two remaining SOF, and Eonwe told them they no longer had a claim to them because of their actions. I don't think that nullification only happened because of two extra Kinslayings.
I think they're chance for healing was to follow Maglor's thinking and give them up and seek forgiveness for their actions.
Very true CG!
I agree, I wish particularly that Maehdros, could have gotten past it all.
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 26 2013, 2:18am
Post #134 of 344
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I'm sure it applied to both genders. But they avoid Luthien. From "The Ruin of Doriath:"
For while Luthien wore the Necklade of the Dareves no Elf would dare to assail her; but now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and of Dior's pride the seven gathered again from wandering, and they sent to him to claim their own. Maybe they felt she was super-blessed by the Valar? I can't say. But the SOF had no qualms against insisting that Thingol turn it over and threatening him when he didn't, and no qualms about attacking Doriath and killing wantonly there to get it, including women such as Dior's wife. But they wouldn't dare to attack Luthien. I don't think it's just because she was popular in Beleriand. I have trouble believing that was enough to hold the SOF back. They were afraid of her. Did they think that after she had confronted Morgoth, without knowing the details, that she had overpowered him, and they concluded she was more powerful than a Vala? They either feared her virtue, or feared her strength. I just think it's so cool they feared her.
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 2:25am
Post #135 of 344
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I knew you were joking about the "he", but it did make me think about it. I completely forgot about the death of Dior's wife, so that defeats that theory.
I really like your point about them being afraid of her. I had never thought about it like that, but I do think that may have played into it. She defeats (however temporarily) the mightiest of the Valar and persuades the others to let her and Beren return from death. There's definitely a part of her that's to be feared, though this is the first time I've recognized that.
Thanks for making me think! lol
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 2:32am
Post #136 of 344
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[curiousg]
After the War of Wrath, the Silmarils burned the two remaining SOF, and Eonwe told them they no longer had a claim to them because of their actions. I don't think that nullification only happened because of two extra Kinslayings.
I think they're chance for healing was to follow Maglor's thinking and give them up and seek forgiveness for their actions.
[/curiousg]
yes, i am also in agreement that the first kinslaying -- without repentance -- might have been enough to cause a silmaril to cause irritation, if it came in contact with their skin. but perhaps not all (maedhros?)
however -- even if we can be assured that it would cause supreme skin irritation -- i +still+ hold that the silmarils were theirs. did they deserve them? no.
but giving the feanorians the jewels would have been an act of compassion -- perhaps someone like maedhros would have been able to repent in such a way to make some better choices ('tho, still bound by the oath, his road would be grim).
i think a lot of bloodshed would have been avoided if luthien had just handed over the silmaril. perhaps someone could have made an early crossing to valinor with it.
something strikes me very wrong with this "finder's keepers" philosophy. the thing -- while holy -- had so much bloodshed associated with it. who would want to claim it? it either belongs to the feanorians, or it belongs to all. it's folly for any individual (or couple) to lay claim to it.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 2:35am
Post #137 of 344
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got the vibe that the sons of feanor were reluctant to attack for a few reasons
1. anyone who comes back from the dead is unnerving; their fate must seem extremely powerful
2. she kicked sauron's sorry hide and she bested morgoth; something to think about (maybe for a few hundred years)
if any of the feanorian sons wished to give them a little peace for all they had been through it would have been maedhros (and perhaps maglor), but i doubt any of the others stayed their actions out of compassion.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 26 2013, 2:54am
Post #138 of 344
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In any case, I find the idea of "why" Beren and Luthien need a Silmaril in Earandil's tale interesting. A tip-off is reading Letter #297, where JRRT says "For the linking of this legend with the other major legends: the making of the Silmarils by Feanor, their seizure by Morgoth, and the recapture of one only from his crown by Beren and Luthien, and the coming of this into Earandil's possession so that his voyages west were at last successful..."
I looked into the war of Wrath chapter in Sil, (because this has been rattling in my memory, like a tin can in a dryer) and found this: "He stood most often now at the prow of Vingilot, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow; and ever its light grew greater as they drew into the West. And the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles and escaped their enchantment; and they came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows...."
So it seems that the bearing of the Silmaril is what allowed Earandil, compass-like, to find his way to the West when so many others had failed. So here is the Hope theme, and also the explanation of why only one Silmaril is taken by Beren and Luthien - ultimately only one is needed, as it is not for possession but for the hope and salvation of Middle Earth.
Interesting that it is Feanor's passion and foresight, so disastrous in the short-sight, that in the long run does allow for the emissary of Middle Earth to beseech the Valar. So they sort of go in tandem: an Arda in which there is a loss of faith and a Summoning needs to follow the long and tortuous path to be cleansed. (Sador had brought up this idea in his Chapter Discussion, retroactive justification of Feanor's rebellion.) I rather like it - of course they are inexorably intertwined, Summoning and Rebellion. No Summoning/No Jewels/No Rebellion ... the question arises there would Arda *need* the Voyage and the level of divine aid without the Summoning and without the resultant distraction of the Valar? Thoughts?
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 26 2013, 2:54am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 26 2013, 3:11am
Post #139 of 344
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All great points Telpemairo //
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got the vibe that the sons of feanor were reluctant to attack for a few reasons
1. anyone who comes back from the dead is unnerving; their fate must seem extremely powerful
2. she kicked sauron's sorry hide and she bested morgoth; something to think about (maybe for a few hundred years)
if any of the feanorian sons wished to give them a little peace for all they had been through it would have been maedhros (and perhaps maglor), but i doubt any of the others stayed their actions out of compassion.
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 26 2013, 3:57am
Post #140 of 344
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No Silmarils needed, but thanks for the offer
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No Summoning/No Jewels/No Rebellion ... the question arises there would Arda *need* the Voyage and the level of divine aid without the Summoning and without the resultant distraction of the Valar? Thoughts? To think through the Ulmo Scenario: All Elves stay in MEarth. Maybe Aule comes and teaches some, but it's really hard to see the Elves reaching the same heights they did in Valinor. It seems like they'd become more like the Sindar. The Valinor Elves were "white," the Avari were "dark," and the Sindar were the gray in between. So if the Noldor, including Feanor, remained at the Sindar-level, maybe more advanced from collusion with the Dwarves, they wouldn't accomplish all they did. And with no Two Trees to model after, there would no Silmarils, as a detail on the big canvas.
If for some reason there was a Kinslaying, it wouldn't have been on Aman, and where would anyone be exiled to in the stern way the Noldor were? It's hard to imagine any of the pivotal events happening. Melkor would still trick the Valar and come back to MEarth, I'm sure of that, but I can't picture all the turmoil the Elves went through. They would have a lot more unity in opposing him too, though it would be just as futile.
Now I think this: "resistance is futile." The Elves would have needed help against Melkor. What if he killed the Trees (he wanted to, and they had nothing to do with the Elves), and the Valar reinforced Aman the way they did so that no sailor could reach them? Then there would be no Silmaril-bearing mariner that could get to them to plead their case, and the Valar could say they gave the Summoning, it was refused, you're on your own. On the other hand, the Valar are so mad at the Noldor in the Rebellion version that they seemed to let Morgoth overrun Beleriand out of spite, so maybe without the Rebellion (i.e., the Elves were all Avari), the Valar would have had softer hearts and would have been more willing to intervene.
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jun 26 2013, 5:00am
Post #141 of 344
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They're not really obliged at all
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It's all in their head... the Oath only binds them through their (warped) conscience and their pride, so it only becomes relevant when they feel it being relevant.
And yes yes yes, in ancient cultures holding to your words was the most important things and so forth. But the thing is, the Sons are kind of deconstructing that. The sky wouldn't have fallen and their heads wouldn't have caved in if they would have just realized it was a very silly thing to say and let go of the whole thing. Probably Eru would have sent them ten points and a parrot stamp from his halls.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jun 26 2013, 9:16am
Post #142 of 344
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Whilst much is made of Daeron's singing, little is said of Beren's. Perhaps he wasn't a good singer. Might not have gotten past the first round of x-factor! Which just goes to show that it takes more than a bit of smouching to win the heart of an Elven/Maian princess! Possibly for the best, there was more to the world at that time than just singing away. I suppose he might have sung a love song to Luthien on occasions.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jun 26 2013, 9:32am
Post #143 of 344
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Seen as Tolkien was a bit of a royalist is this a hint from Legolas that the seed of Luthien carries on from beyond the third age? That after Gondor comes to an end, the line continues, through the Empires of Rome, Saxon chieftains, The Russian Tsars and all the way down the ages in various formats to the modern royal families of today?
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 10:13am
Post #144 of 344
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... of course...
but, as a reader, i'm not convinced.
keeping the silmaril, an object so highly charged with blood, history, a poisonous oath, seems folly. if fate is guiding its path surely it could have come to earendil anyway, had it been released to the sons of feanor. great arda, it had come from morgoth himself -- if that was accomplishable, surely a path from any of the sons to earendil was even easier. and if it's fate at work, deux ex machina can do whatever it wills.
yes, the summoning, the rebellion, the plea for intercession are all intertwined. but its conceivable that the elves might have transgressed in some other way, even if the summons had not occurred.
and i'm still left without a convincing explanation as to why -- other than the sons of feanor and their followers -- the rest of noldor are thought to rebel in the first place. they were under no ban to leave (none of the elves were) and they took no part in the kinslaying. so where was the transgression?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 10:16am
Post #145 of 344
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[hamfast gamgee]
Seen as Tolkien was a bit of a royalist is this a hint from Legolas that the seed of Luthien carries on from beyond the third age? That after Gondor comes to an end, the line continues, through the Empires of Rome, Saxon chieftains, The Russian Tsars and all the way down the ages in various formats to the modern royal families of today?
[/hamfast gamgee]
hi hamfast : )
are you asserting that this is tolkien's thinking? or is this your own extrapolation?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 26 2013, 10:23am
Post #146 of 344
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No-one to call a Council of Elrond. And so it turns to tragedy.
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Woah, there was a lot of interesting stuff to read when I checked this thread this morning.
We are discussing (among other things)
- Why don't B&L hand their recovered Silmaril over to the Sons of Feanor?
- To what extent are the Sons of Feanor really bound by the Oath (and, related) is it more than what it would be in modern real life? (By which I mean, in modern real life it would be a solemn promise and someone breaking it would risk a lot of reputational damage. But no more). By contrast, we were discussing the idea that there was something almost occult about the Oath: is it an entity which you can think of as a character - like the Ring? To what extent is it an option for the SoF to abandon the Oath?
Thought-provoking stuff, and my thoughts could go on several of the subthreads (this one seems the most appropriate, though).
Let's compare Silmaril and oath to Ring for the moment. You could imagine that we're at a point something like the Council of Elrond chapter in LOTR: a dangerous, highly corrupting artifact has been recovered with great difficulty and a good dose of "luck". The good guys have an opportunity to decide what to do about it.
The First Age lacks a Ganfdalf (mostly Gandalf, I think, though of course he's in coalition with Elrond, and presumably Galadriel) to persuade people that it is too dangerous for any of them, and that therefore the only sane course if for everyone to refute it, and to commit to a course that will remove it forever beyond temptation.
Which is the point macliliel was making
Quote
i think a lot of bloodshed would have been avoided if luthien had just handed over the silmaril. perhaps someone could have made an early crossing to valinor with it.
maciliel
If we're at the Council of CuriousG here, I second maciliel's proposal and further, I move that we send Luthien and Beren, since Luthien has proved herself such an able negotiator.
(I guess that scheme, if it works out, skips us several chapters, (at the cost of having no Elrond come the Third Age).
But, back inside the story, there is nobody with the vision to broker any such agreement:
"Council of Thingol" -  too insular, no vision
"Council of Melian" -  She seems to be limited to Cassandra-like behaviour "Are you sure dear? You know that's a jolly stupid idea, and with my superpowers I can foresee that we're all doomed as a consequence. Well, whatever you say dear, I'm not going to argue any further. Silly me, I'll just make the tea, I feel I've completely made my contribution by ineffectively warning you." 
"Council of [any SoF - insert as applicable]"  - don't see that working either; they cannot or will not abandon the Oath.
And Fingolfin and Finrod are dead. 
Council of Luthien might be our best hope, but you can imagine the "Bring forth the Silmaril, Beren" equivalent to "Bring forth the Ring Frodo" promptly starting an undiplomatic fist-fight. Perhaps it would be like having a whole troop of Gollums at the Council of Elrond. And maybe anyway Luthien is an action hero, but not a States-elf.
I guess there's nothing to stop B&L sneaking off, running the gauntlet of silmaril-snatching SoF's (all thinking "SoB's", or is that just me? ) and trying to get the silmaril to Valinor Frodo & Sam style. But I think that whole concept is tooo much for even this pair of heroes (we need a wizard to think on that scale and launch that kind of adventure, and we're 2 ages away from having them)
At this point I'm reminded of an interesting thread Bombadil21 started about Tolkien and the Tragic I'm thinking that the Silmarillion is the kind of tragedy where the characters cannot (or will not) pull back from their doom precisely because of their defining character flaws.
Macbeth is flawed by his ambition... it’s that flaw which forces him to take the inevitable steps towards his own doom. You see? ...Tragedy in dramatic terms is inevitable, pre-ordained. Look, now, even without ever having heard the story of Macbeth you wanted to shout out, to warn him and prevent him going on, didn’t you? But you wouldn’t have been able to stop him would you?... what I mean is that your warning would have been ignored. He’s warned in the play. But he can’t go back. He still treads the path to doom. ...You see he goes blindly on and on and with every step he’s spinning one more piece of thread which will eventually make up the network of his own tragedy. (excerpts from a scene of the play Educating Rita - for brevity I've quoted only enough to make my point here: which unfortunately guts the scene of a lot of good stuff, including a counter-example and a lot of humour. Luckily, you can read it all here )
(Conversely, perhaps LOTR is less of a tragedy because most of the characters are willing to forego the Ring)
So. If This section of the Silmarillion is a tragedy, I see The Oath as a major engine of it. We began to discuss how the oath works. In one subtherad I commented that it seemed the SoF were only bound by it when it suited them, & Feanoriel answered:
It's all in their head... the Oath only binds them through their (warped) conscience and their pride, so it only becomes relevant when they feel it being relevant.
And yes yes yes, in ancient cultures holding to your words was the most important things and so forth. But the thing is, the Sons are kind of deconstructing that. The sky wouldn't have fallen and their heads wouldn't have caved in if they would have just realized it was a very silly thing to say and let go of the whole thing. Probably Eru would have sent them ten points and a parrot stamp from his halls.
I think that's a thoroughly plausible reading. One can see the Oath as very solemn promise, without any supernatural power. Such a thing in real life can be very hard to give up: it takes:
- humility (I was wrong to say I would do that)
- courage (to accept the risk of damage to your reputation, and possibly to your political office or even life. To believe others will see that a change of plan is wiser and nobler that the fulfillment of an oath),
- imagination (to see a better solution), and lastly
- ability to start over again (unlike Macbeth with his “I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er.”)
I think I could quickly come up with a long list of real-world leaders who have wooden-headedly stuck to a policy long after it ceased to be sensible.
Going further, one could see the oath as being an obsession or compulsion the SoF are under. One could imagine this as purely psychological: but the oath has gone beyond something that they could give up by overcoming their stubbornness, pride and fear. It's not at all feasible for them to give it up without outside help.
Going further - I've heard of people who are unfortunate enough to suffer from a compulsion or obsession report that it is experienced by them as an outside force: it tells or forces them to do something
Going further - this is fantasy. "But Tolkien, who knows what he can do". Maybe the Oath being experienced as an outside force can, in this fantasy universe turn it truly into an outside force, and swearing the oath has summoned or created a sort of demonic force which now won't let them go.
All are possible readings, I think.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 26 2013, 10:25am)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 26 2013, 10:26am
Post #147 of 344
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well... it's certainly arguable that, for all the greatness that the elves achieved in valinor with the help of the valar, it would have been better if they had stayed on the mainland and fully achieved their purpose there, even if it were not to be in the same, divine-kissed way.
i rather think the elves would be in for just as hard a time, if melkor came back to the mainland after being released from mandos. he's still a vala, after all. i suspect their misery would have been greater, in fact. without the light of aman shining in their eyes, without the fine weapons, etc., they would be easier pickings.
yes, in this scenario it's less likely that there would be a silmaril to guide the way to valinor. but in tolkien's world, eru would have found another way.
i still think the way the valar treated the moriquendi was horrible. maybe the valar should have boarded a ship, sailed to the mainland, and asked forgiveness of the avari.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 26 2013, 10:28am
Post #148 of 344
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I think that's a plausible reading, and there are also others
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...and as it seemed to go with thoughts I had on other subthreads, I took the liberty of replying as part of a post on another subthread. I hope you don't mind.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 26 2013, 10:40am
Post #149 of 344
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This chapter for a Standalone film, perhaps?
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CuriousG: When friends have asked if they should read The Sil, I refer them to this one, and say don't get bogged down in the funny names and all the places they go, just focus on the feel of it, because it's a great overview of Tolkien's writing and can be read as a mini-novel. nWm: Or a Standalone film, perhaps?
[Help, I am trapped inside this quote box. Send a hero to get me out. Rescuing noWizardme is an equal opportunity quest objective. Applications from amazingly attractive female heroes are especially welcomed, but solely to re-balance previous under-representation in the genre  ]
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 26 2013, 11:04am
Post #150 of 344
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why the rest of Noldor are thought to rebel in the first place?
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It's a bit of a class detention isn't it (class detention - when the whole class has to stay behind because the teacher can't or doesn't pick out the actual culprit).
I think the kinslaying became a full-scale battle; I recall that much of the body of the Noldor host gets sucked into violence without stopping to find out what the trouble is. So, when confronted with the Doom, many of those who don't elect to turn back do so because of guilt about their personal role in those events.
But presumably there are those against whom there is no warrant - or maybe not much beyond joyriding in stolen boats. Fingolfin, for example, tagged along reluctantly, to save his people from the rash counsels of Feanor.
Adding to my tragedy theme (if you would like to), and recalling some of the discussion about the Flight of the Noldor chapter: we saw the Valar as getting stuck in the aggrieved parent role of a parent/teenager confrontation. Perhaps, they're still too sore about that to allow any of the sons and daughters home, until there has been a lot more grief, and they might get a proper apology?
Or maybe, like the gods of Discworld they are busy on other matters (such as an ongoing dispute with the ice giants involving return of a lawnmower, and the acceptable volume for music)
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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