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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jan 25 2008, 6:42am
Post #101 of 108
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Great minds thinking alike, on the few equals at least 3
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THough I get your seven peice, of course it may have been a small oversight. There may have been seven not inculding their Lord Gothmog. . . lots of possibilities. At the end we don't know, but the probability exists. . . as for the Mountain ranges. . . You would likely have said that Khazad-Dum, greatest and most heavily populated of the dwarf halls, visited by Elves, Galadriel herself having passed through it in earlier times, would have been an unlikely place for one of the Demon Lords to hide. . . and yet we know one was there. So in mountains Blue or Gray the possibility remains very real, as The Balrogs alluded to hid at the roots of mountains, not in plain sight for any to stumble over.
As to the Ash and heat near Orodruin. . . Shadow and FLAME lol. I don't think fumes and hot air were problems for the scourges of fire. They were closely related to the Bearer of the Sun after all, whom few could come near.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Jan 25 2008, 6:43pm
Post #102 of 108
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Agreed, but...
LOL. 
"You would likely have said that Khazad-Dum, greatest and most heavily populated of the dwarf halls, visited by Elves, Galadriel herself having passed through it in earlier times, would have been an unlikely place for one of the Demon Lords to hide."
The point you are making is valid, it sounds highly unlikely & seems to point out how scared Durin's Bane must've been to just hide in the first place in the mountains that was already mined outside the Beleriand, but the point I was making was not that any of Morgoth's servants wouldn't hide in those other places, but that they'd be discovered, which, of course, Durin's Bane was......
The places I mentioned as being inhabited were all likely to uncover a servant of Morgoth in the 6419 of the 2nd & 3rd Ages, except the Grey Mountains, Ephel Duath & Ered Lithui. . .
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jan 26 2008, 6:50am
Post #103 of 108
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except the Grey Mountains, Ephel Duath & Ered Lithui. . .
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Well, that leaves quite a bit of walking around space, even for a 14 to 20 foot demon captain, doesn't it. LOL And yes, Durin's Bane was discovered. . . after near onto six hundred centuries! LOL. Maybe another Balrog WAS unleashed in the Gray Mountains. . . in the 5th age.   And What of Rhun and Far Harad. . . There is no telling how far the swift Balrogs and other horrors might have fled, and what, save the other Ainur, could have hampered their flight?
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Jan 28 2008, 3:11pm
Post #104 of 108
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I think at this point it's a matter of opinions, that's all. The fact's do back up my opions though.....
BTW, it was only 38 centuries ubtil Durin's Bane was found & Tolkien gives several indications that evil things were 'awoken' by Sauron's reappearing in both the 2nd & 3rd Ages, especially in the 3rd, so why wouldn't any hidden servants of Morgoth have reappered as well, as did Orcs, Trolls & dragons?
Besides there's no mention of them.......
Also, what other Maiar are mentioned as serving Morgoth besides Sauron & Balrogs?
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jan 28 2008, 4:59pm
Post #105 of 108
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The indication is that there were other evil Maia, who hearkened to Melkor's discord at the worlds creation, but did not follow him into service. Sauron and The Balrogs were the greatest of his servants, but there are allusions that other fell things may have dwelt in the far flung reaches of the world, things of spirit origin, corrupted by the influence of Melkor, but not under his dominion.
The primary reason that The Balrog of Moria is listed is because The Fellowship encounters him. Also, it may be that the awakening of a Balrog in some remote region of the world may not have had the same immediate impact that the awakening of Morias dread occupant had (i.e. the slaying of dwarf kings, the flight of an entire dwarf kingdom, and of a third of a neighboring Elf kingdom).
I think it more accurate to say that, in this matter, there really aren't very many facts to support any opinion, and there is tons of room for speculation in a dozen different directions. I have never even seen a map of Rhun or Far Harad! lol
Why aren't the colour devices working today?
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Jan 28 2008, 6:41pm
Post #106 of 108
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Well, Tolkien made an early map that shows all of Harad & Rhun, the one that Karen Fonstad uses to take liberties with in her Atlas of M-E.
Still, all that map really does is confirm the shape of Middle-Earth matches the 'Eurasian-African Land Mass', which of course Tolkien based Middle-Earth on. Putting the Mountain ranges in as Fonstad does is a bit of a reach, but we do know that somewhere in the East in the Mountain range where the Elves arose, plus the SEa of Helchar. How she came up with the range in Harad & why it disappeared, you got me - guess I shoulda read more?
Now, back to that Maiar thing.
We're going in circles here.....
The point isn't that there were others besides Sauron & the Balrogs who served Morgoth because Ungoliant was clearly one example.
The point of this discussion is whether any were at The Last Battle between The Host of The West when Thangorodrim was broken & fled & Tolkien states clearly what did flee. The absense of information is not the presence of proof.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jan 29 2008, 6:04am
Post #107 of 108
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Escaped, and after destroying the Mountain range in Far Harad as a show of force, mastered the distant south of the world. lol
Who knows. I will have to look at that Atlas map again. But we are getting into the far reaches of speculation here. Lets stick with the Balrog we know for now. 
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 29 2008, 6:04am)
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Jan 30 2008, 7:56pm
Post #108 of 108
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My "impression" that a LOT of things were hidden in the earth admittedly come from two things - the Balrog and Shelob (and the spiders in Mirkwood). They are remnants of Ungoliant and Morgoth. The impression I have of Middle Earth is that the things of Morgoth basically have riddled middle earth. Many of them are below-ground things. Orcs. Trolls. It's an impression, like one gets from looking at a painting. I can look at a painting of a sunny farmhouse and get an impression of the world it belongs to. It may not be my world. It may be a world full of sunny grassy fields and happy farmers and children playing in peace. The war between the Valar and Morgoth was a huge war that destroyed and sunk a part of the continent, and it involved thousands of exotic creatures and spirits. The "impression" that Tolkien makes for me when it is possible for Dwarves to dig up an ancient Balrog from that war, is that the Dwarves not only made one mistake, but that they should be careful of making the same mistake again. Even old artifacts from the upheaval of that war are found, such as the swords from Gondolin. Now of course I'm not saying every 3rd yard of soil contains a Balrog or some other unknown horror. But the impression I have that remnants of Morgoth's forces, and other dark creatures, inhabit below and above the ground I believe is a reasonable impression.
I'll respond more later when I have the time, but I was able to type this out hurriedly. Enjoying the conversation thus far. 
Great, where are we going?
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