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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion Discussion, Chapter 19: Of Beren and Luthien: Love, etc.
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Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 9:09pm

Post #101 of 344 (442 views)
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impressive... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

i think that first one is especially thoughtful. but that is you, to a c --


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Grey Havens


Jun 25 2013, 9:17pm

Post #102 of 344 (448 views)
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Thingol says "bring to me..." [In reply to] Can't Post

Thingol says "bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then, if she will, Lúthien may set her hand in yours. "

It's not at all clear that he actually wants the jewel. It's Beren who starts the comparison between Lúthien and a jewel rolling, and mentions that not even Morgoth will keep him from his "treasure". So Thingol may just think he's being very clever taking the jewel thing a step further.

He later says that "if there were hope or fear that Berenshould ever come back alive to Menegroth, he should not have looked again upon the light of heaven, though I had sworn it. "

So he's just naming an impossible task, is not invested in getting a Silmaril, & so logically might be willing to lob it into the middle of House Fëanor and watch them scrap over it. That's not his political style though: as we know he's preferred to ignore & be ignored rather than to try & undermine the other houses.

But then Finrod says:"it is plain that Thingol desires your death; but it seems that this doom goes beyond his purpose , and that the Oath of Fëanor is at work again. For the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred, and he that even names them in desire moves a great power from slumber…"

It's almost as if the Oath is a character, listening out for anyone entering the Game of Jewels...
Pirate

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 25 2013, 9:17pm

Post #103 of 344 (454 views)
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And doctors' problem too! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been known to write heroine instead of heroin on medical notes before nowBlush Mind you, the word heroin seems to be used a bit less here in the UK, than it used to be- medically it is diamorphine and the drug users and therapy centres use slang such as "smack" or "gear"

So what does this say about the fashion term "heroin chic"? (Not something I like, but still)

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 25 2013, 9:22pm

Post #104 of 344 (455 views)
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That's really nice Ardamire [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish we had more of those moments in the Sil, more of an insight into the characters on a day to day, rather than an epic basis

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 25 2013, 9:29pm

Post #105 of 344 (440 views)
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LOL- Love no. 3 CG! [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps Varda and Manwe give him a space suit, for life in the void?!Crazy

PS- wouldn't a chocolate Balrog melt? " Twas a creature of both cocoa and flame" Gives a whole new meaning to the Slime Balrog!Wink

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 9:30pm

Post #106 of 344 (429 views)
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so, thingol's dare [In reply to] Can't Post

 
was not to be given the silmaril, just to have beren have it, in hand, in front of thingol.

so..... i assert that luthien and beren had the opportunity and responsibility to then give the silmaril to the sons of feanor. the quest was fulfilled.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 9:31pm

Post #107 of 344 (432 views)
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How right you are my friend! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
is that it always makes me think of the drug. Crazy Nurses' problem I guess (eh, Brethil?). Wink






Probably why I don't like writing it! CrazyWink

As Elaen says as well, an easy transcription error!

BTW: thanks for finding that HoME dialogue! You always find the most meaningful bits and share with us - its appreciated! Angelic

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 25 2013, 9:32pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 9:33pm

Post #108 of 344 (445 views)
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brethil! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
you just landed on the shores of tol eressea! say hello to curiousg, who has a welcome basket for you.

cheers and congratulations : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 9:33pm

Post #109 of 344 (436 views)
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Alas! I have moved on! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

looks like you're in the grey havens... but only for three more posts!




You're stuck with me now CG...Tongue

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 9:34pm

Post #110 of 344 (413 views)
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Thank you Telpemairo! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
you just landed on the shores of tol eressea! say hello to curiousg, who has a welcome basket for you.




Hope its muffins. Not cockatrice eggs. Crazy

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 9:36pm

Post #111 of 344 (424 views)
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Thingol's scheme [In reply to] Can't Post

True, he'd never even seen a Silmaril and would only know what he'd heard of them. He merely knew that getting one was "impossible" and a clever (or to me, cruel and twisted) way to get rid of his daughter's boyfriend. Both Melian and Finrod knew he was stirring up trouble beyond his comprehension.

What a terrific observation that the Oath is a character listening for the Silmarils to be mentioned--my whole-hearted agreement. It's like some sort of monster from traditional stories that guards the great treasure, and is usually asleep, but is activated when you get near. In its case "getting near" means mentioning the Feanorian gem in any context other than "I hope I never see one!" It has a life of its own way beyond Feanor, of course, and once it's awakened, it always does harm. It seems to have a mind of its own and is not a mindless on/off switch.

Or so it seems. Do others think it has "agency," as they say? (I learned that one from Telain's posts.)


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 25 2013, 9:38pm

Post #112 of 344 (409 views)
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+ determined to fill page 5 with my posts!+ [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree No Wiz- the Oath is almost an entity in and of itself- quite a scaary concept really. I've been trying to think of an analogy to it- and actually the one I come up with is another TOlkien entity- the Ring. Both the Oath and the Ring seem to be sensitive to the desires and weaknesses of various players, even if they are not, at first, directly connected with the Oath or Ring- eg the Ring is awoken by Bilbo's presence in Gollum's cave and makes a bid for freedom from Gollum. In a similar fashion, the Oath is awoken by Thingol's schemes. The only difference is that one is a physical entity and the other is... what? A spiritual entity? An entity of doom? I'm not expressing this terribly well, but hoepfully you understand what I mean

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


(This post was edited by elaen32 on Jun 25 2013, 9:41pm)


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 9:38pm

Post #113 of 344 (442 views)
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Tsk tsk, stop being coy [In reply to] Can't Post

You're just trying to figure out how to get the Silmarils for yourself, you know. Even the Valar can figure that one out. But don't expect a thrice-talking pony to help you out in this.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 9:45pm

Post #114 of 344 (421 views)
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i don't think the silmarils have agency [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i don't think the silmarils have agency, but mentioning them, invoking them in any way is rather like singing the ride of the valkyries in an avalanche zone.

honestly, i know beren is a good guy and all, but i think he started this snowball rolling when +he+ compared the silmarils to luthien.

(and how horribly murderous is thingol? yerccch.)


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 9:50pm

Post #115 of 344 (420 views)
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Justice versus healing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
if only beren and luthien had just +given+ the silmaril to a son of feanor.

what did they need with it? they had each other, and the only point of obtaining a silmaril was to secure their lives together.

also, even though they wrested it from morgoth, is it "finder's keepers?" everyone knows morgoth stole the silmarils from feanor's family, and murdered finwe. what right did they have to keep it?

it would have been a whole lot better (and righteous) if they had just given it to one of the feanorian sons. and -- imagine if that happened..... if she gave it to celegrom, would caranthir gotten mad and attacked him? celegorm is not the oldest son. i suspect that the silmarils in the hands of any one son of feanor would still not have made for peace.




I think too that JRRT's ultimate fate for the Silmarils in the first world is their distribution through sea, sky and land. Part of the 'Release from Bondage' concept I think...certainly that the Star become an actual star, a light above - so that requires the Silmaril to move through the line of Beren and Luthien. But you are correct in your theory I think, that if any one SoF had it, does that support the Oath, or would there be even interfamily rivalry for its possession: my feeling is a civil war of sorts.
;
Of course as Doug pointed out beautifully in 'Law and Arda', there is the philosophical concept of Justice versus Healing as two distinct paths (though I point out specifically it was related to Muriel and Finwe; I'm stretching the concept a bit here). Justice perhaps might return the Silmaril to the SoF, but I think healing requires that it not be part of that toxic bond anymore, and they all be free of the 'bondage' of the crown and of the Oath. Or maybe I'm really out there. Its been a really long day. Wouldn't be the first time! Crazy

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 9:56pm

Post #116 of 344 (419 views)
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(***hahaha!!***) [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Darkstone! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 9:58pm

Post #117 of 344 (406 views)
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Interesting idea Elaen... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I agree No Wiz- the Oath is almost an entity in and of itself- quite a scaary concept really. I've been trying to think of an analogy to it- and actually the one I come up with is another TOlkien entity- the Ring. Both the Oath and the Ring seem to be sensitive to the desires and weaknesses of various players, even if they are not, at first, directly connected with the Oath or Ring- eg the Ring is awoken by Bilbo's presence in Gollum's cave and makes a bid for freedom from Gollum. In a similar fashion, the Oath is awoken by Thingol's schemes. The only difference is that one is a physical entity and the other is... what? A spiritual entity? An entity of doom? I'm not expressing this terribly well, but hoepfully you understand what I mean




Both technically lifeless but Avarice Incarnate?

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 10:01pm

Post #118 of 344 (402 views)
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interesting, but [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...in my perspective, luthien and beren giving the silmaril to the sons of feanor +would+ be an act of healing (as well as one of justice).

the covetousness surrounding the silmarils reminds me of the covetousness that encircles the one ring. by freely giving it away, to those who were robbed of it, would be a generous, healing act -- and -- it would shield them and those in their orbit from the toxicity of the oath.

why could the silmarils not find their ultimate places in sky, sea, and earth any number of ways?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 10:07pm

Post #119 of 344 (390 views)
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Perhaps healing for Luthien [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...in my perspective, luthien and beren giving the silmaril to the sons of feanor +would+ be an act of healing (as well as one of justice).

the covetousness surrounding the silmarils reminds me of the covetousness that encircles the one ring. by freely giving it away, to those who were robbed of it, would be a generous, healing act -- and -- it would shield them and those in their orbit from the toxicity of the oath.

why could the silmarils not find their ultimate places in sky, sea, and earth any number of ways?






but not for Middle Earth I fear, or the Sons of Feanor, as I don't think it would bring peace...plus I wonder if JRRT saw the Kinslaying and the Curse as rather a forfeit of the goods.
And of course then in relation to busting it out of the Crown - "you break it, you buy it..." SlyCrazy

(looking around) I still don't see any muffins.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 25 2013, 10:08pm)


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 10:14pm

Post #120 of 344 (390 views)
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Long day? [In reply to] Can't Post

But you had to swim all the way to Tol Eressea since the last ship had already left the Grey Havens. Certainly that's a long day (though a feat to be remembered in song in Valinor). Kick back on the couch, brush the seaweed out of your hair, and enjoy an evening of Elves singing under the stars in June, if you care for such things. Otherwise, everything is free on Tol Eressea (Elves have no economy, you know), so start shopping, and Welcome to the Isle!!


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 10:17pm

Post #121 of 344 (390 views)
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Yes, I think the Oath and Kinslaying already dispossessed them [In reply to] Can't Post

After the War of Wrath, the Silmarils burned the two remaining SOF, and Eonwe told them they no longer had a claim to them because of their actions. I don't think that nullification only happened because of two extra Kinslayings.

I think they're chance for healing was to follow Maglor's thinking and give them up and seek forgiveness for their actions.


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 10:18pm

Post #122 of 344 (376 views)
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Great connection of Oath to Ring. I understood you quite well. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 10:19pm

Post #123 of 344 (380 views)
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"Creature of cocoa and flame" --love it! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 10:22pm

Post #124 of 344 (397 views)
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Fate [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you that Fate ought to be smart enough to find various avenues for the Silmarils to reach their destinations in the 3 elements. Maybe Tolkien thought the path was straight and narrow?


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 10:37pm

Post #125 of 344 (384 views)
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(brushing seaweed) Thanks for the sweet welcome CG! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

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