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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion Discussion, Chapter 19: Of Beren and Luthien: Love, etc.
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Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 8:07am

Post #51 of 344 (494 views)
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Returning to Release from Bondage theme [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I also feel like to answer this puzzler may relate back to one of the earliest of the tales, of Earandil the Mariner. I see the symbolism of the Silmaril that Beren and Luthien take from the Crown as the tie to the future, to Earandil and his voyage (I see it lots of places. My needle is stuck in the groove...) The Silmaril is the Light of the Trees, and on Earandil's brow becomes a light in the heavens: and that supplication to the Valar of the blood of Men, of Elves and even the Maiar is what "releases" Middle Earth from Morgoth (though not from evil). So is the 'bondage' the hope, that is freed by the act of obtaining the Silmaril and allowing for the union of Beren and Luthien? We know how important the role of hope is in the canon - all the way through Estel as the later hope of Men.

Granted throughout the tale there are many examples of freedom from bondage, so thematically I feel like the obvious and physical freeings are a compliment to the underlying freeing of light and hope as the salvation of Middle Earth, in two different ages.

Of course as our resident Wizard points out without the discarded wrapper containing the illegible note there is no definitive answer...!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 8:14am

Post #52 of 344 (479 views)
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There may be no official answer, but I do like Brethil's // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 8:38am

Post #53 of 344 (480 views)
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Have a magical day (wait, did I just call Disney?) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Great listing of events BTW CG! Thanks!! Angelic There's a whole lot of magic in this chapter, more than any other, and that's not just because of its length.
Given this abundance of magic, would you have liked to see it more in other chapters, or is this enough? Is this chapter the most magical because it's "the love chapter" and love is magical, or did it just make the plot work? Plot: I raise that point because every time our lovers are in over their heads, it's magic (or a magic dog) that saves them. Was Tolkien the writer creatively backing his characters into a corner each time to highlight their helplessness and hopeless plight, then cheating by bailing them out with magic? (I don't think so, but wanted to ask.) Its enough for me, and I like that it stands alone in this respect. It works here because of the importance of the chapter both personally to JRRT and because this is the chapter from which Hope springs.

Now trust me, I'm on the right side here, but Galadriel tells Sam she doesn't understand the word "magic" in Westron, because it applies to both Elven enchantment and "the deceits of the Enemy." Isn't Luthien repeatedly using her magic for deceit? If good and bad magic are so different, why do Finrod, Luthien, and Sauron all perform similar transformation spells? OK, good to know where you allegiance is there CG before you go all Morgoth's Advocate on us...Wink In any case as Furincurunir stated with Letter #155 the magia and goetia are very much defined by purpose and intent in JRRT's view. So Luthien using the same skills but defensively and not to dominate I think is the difference.

The extent of Magic: How much of Luthien's magic comes from her mother's side? Could Thingol have done any of the things she did? Finrod could sing power songs and transform people into Orcs: how widespread was that ability? I think being half Maiar is totally significant here. Honestly aside from marginalizing Thingol and Cassandra-prophesying I feel that is why a Maiar is brought in as Thingol's bride. The Hope of Middle Earth in two Ages (Earandil and Aragorn) is one from the blood of the Firstborn, Men and Maiar. I think its a lovely conceit on JRRT's part to write Men's story - in the sense of our story - as having this ancient hidden magic in us that enriches our spirits. Part of the optimism in which he saw the inner value of humanity expressed in the legendarium.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 25 2013, 8:39am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 8:41am

Post #54 of 344 (470 views)
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Thanks Furincurunir!!!!! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 8:45am

Post #55 of 344 (483 views)
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JRRT and Hamlet... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In letter #155 (beginning by the Prof charmingly saying "I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' …") , he says magic

Quote
Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose of use.





So funny but despite the Professor's 'polite loathing' for Shakespeare I can't help but read in that statement "There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 9:21am

Post #56 of 344 (494 views)
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Making me blush CG... [In reply to] Can't Post

But thanks for the kind words. Really you are right, how opposite the two are with Beren so steeped in dark and Luthien full of light; yet they both transform for each other, don't they? Beren sees her and recognizes her light, and opens his spirit right away; and Luthien becomes a tough and able partner for Beren with no prior experience. She has a steep learning curve as well. And as you wrote a bit upthread, JRRT gave Luthien many, many hero moments. Not the typical fairytale gender roles by any means.

I feel too that with Luthien being the 'mother' of so many special people that she could not simply be arm candy, or a helpless maiden: she had to have real, sterling worth. Yet she remains essentially feminine in the sense that the deeds she does are not by sword or violence, but by her talent and her arts. So non-sterotype for an older school of thought, in that she rescues The Hero many times (including de-swooning Wink) but also non-stereotypical from our view today as a female Hero who is not a gender-breaking type of warrior. So as far as princesses go she is really a bit unique in her way.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 11:59am

Post #57 of 344 (483 views)
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I do too. Huan fetched her the wrapper. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 12:49pm

Post #58 of 344 (455 views)
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50 Shades of Gandalf the Grey [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreeing with all you said, there's another release I wonder about. The SOF are bound by their Oath. Everyone else is too, such as Finrod. Yet Beren makes an arrogant claim to Luthien before Thingol that borrows wording from the Feanorian Oath, and any mention of that Oath stirs up trouble, worse than discussing politics on the internet. Thingol traps Beren in those words (ignoring Melian's urgent advice--any surprises in the Rdg Room?), and Beren winds up stuck with a nigh-impossible oath to win Luthien.

As WIz said, Fate arranged this marriage, and coupled with their oath, do Beren & Lu have much control over their lives? Everything they do is in service to Fate or Oath. Once they return as mortals, they're released from both and are free to live their lives as they wish, with only the last requirement of Fate that they produce a child to carry on this remarkable bloodline, but Tolkien characters usually want kids anyway.

I don't propose that that's the major meaning behind the Release from Bondage, but a minor one.

To build on what you say, or maybe just to shamelessly plagiarize you, it seems that the release from Morgoth's tyranny is in the present as much as the future. His pall of terror has altered the psyche of Beleriand where people doubt they can defeat him and now want a stalemate at best. Beren & Luthien remind me of young scientists who make major breakthroughs because they didn't know that there were all kinds of rules why they couldn't. There's an innocence to these two that if they do their best and stick together, they can disregard the fear of Morgoth.

Really, shouldn't Luthien have been terrified to confront Morgoth? By bonding with each other, Luthien & Beren released incredible inner spiritual energies from everyday bondage which overrode the despair wrought by the Enemy. This tale is inspiring on myriad levels.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 1:04pm

Post #59 of 344 (476 views)
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hero vs. heroine [In reply to] Can't Post

 
in reading over the current beren and luthien discussion thread (which i shall be joining as soon as i finish reading the chapter) and our previous threads when we spoke of other characters (fingolfin, maedhros, fingon, etc.), i was struck by some of the ideas discussed re traditional / non-traditional depictions of females in these tales, vs. males.

in this thread, luthien is noted for taking a much more active and powerful role than is usually accorded some of her female siblings in tales such as these.

one of the differences to my mind is the use of "hero" vs. "heroine." because "heroine" is definitively female, because of its suffix, culturally, a lot of baggage comes along with it. notions that females are not as powerful or strong or decisive. if they weren't then they could just be called "heroes."

i think about luthien and eowyn and galadriel as heroes and contrast that with thinking about them as heroines. however admirable the latter sounds, the former does sound more lofty and noble. again, i suspect that all of the female-denoting suffixes come into play: editor/editrix (semi-archaic); aviator/aviatrix (semi-archaic); waiter / waitress... i'll think more on this list to get some good examples (right now i just want to post : ) ). note in my brief list, all of the base words are not inherently male (just as "hero" isn't inherently male, unlike "chairman"). so there's some cultural need to say that a female just can't +quite+ be a hero, so we need to slap a feminine suffix on the end, to make note of her not-quite-as-good-status.

i firmly think of luthien as a +hero+.

i firmly think of eowyn as a +hero+.

i firmly think of idril as a +hero+.


i'm always amazed at the power language has.


cheers ---


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 25 2013, 1:05pm)


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 1:28pm

Post #60 of 344 (451 views)
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More on the morals of magic - Mason and Magus [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a description (from Anita Mason's novel The Illusionist) of attitudes to magic in 1st Century AD Judea. It sets up the world in which her main character, the magician Simon Magus, operates:

Quote
Magic was prohibited in those days, on the assumption that it worked...

[But] not all magic was illegal. It was an open-minded age, and a thing was judged largely on its intended effects. A spell to cast harm on a neighbour was punishable; a spell to take away toothache was not. If it had been, many doctors would have been seriously inconvenienced.

Magic was part of the fabric of life, and a great deal of it was not recognized as magic at all. It shaded imperceptibly into religion on the one hand and science on the other - inevitably, since it had begotten them. It was practiced by a strange assortment of people...Since the small fry of the magical world were limited by their capacities to catering for the baser needs of human nature - a love potion, as curse, a spell to make a woman tell the truth - while those of greater aptitude could afford to use their gifts benignly, the shadowy distinction between permitted and forbidden magic tended regrettably to resolve itself into a class distinction, in which the artisans were nearly always on the wrong side of the law and the great masters were above it. ...

Since white magic was believed to be performed by gods and black or illegal magic by demons, this sort of assertion brought the argument about legality into an area where it could not be settled. For the supernatural agents who performed the magician's will did not normally identify themselves to the beholders. Thus a celebrated exorcist was several times accused of casting out devils by the power of Beelzebub. ...

Thus between legal and illegal, black and white, god and demon, the boundaries were hopelessly confused. Most people did not bother about this confusion: it did not appear to them to be a problem. To the magician, as to the prostitute, the occasional severity of the law was an occupational hazard. To Simon Magus, who saw very clearly that one man's harm is another man's blessing, and who operated in a world of forces where there is no good and evil but only power, the illogicalities of the law were the predictable outcome of a system in which men of little imagination made rules for their betters.

One idea which does not seem to have occurred to the lawmakers of the time was that magic should be anyone's property. It was simply there, as the air was there. The principle that the same act, performed with the same intent, should be licit or illicit depending on the identity of the magician, would have been found incomprehensible. It would, of course, have simplified the situation at a stroke. Perhaps they did not take magic very seriously in those days.

I like it as an authentic-sounding portrayal of a society in which magic was widely assumed to be effective, but before the religious authorities (as the novel sees it) chose the option discussed in the last paragraph - divide things into miracles (good) and magic (evil).

I think it outlines the problem nicely - do you judge the magician morally by his or her intent? The moral standing of the forces used? Whose side the magician is on?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 1:33pm

Post #61 of 344 (478 views)
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Yes, but didn't you say Morgoth was a hero too? :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think you did, I was just slandering you, something I do before my morning coffee.

I agree that words like "heroine" are archaic. I was intentionally using it because the story is archaic and superficially reflects archaic conventions. There's no doubt in my mind that these women are full-fledged heroes. But gender differences remain in language, such as man/woman, father/mother. Why do we still bother with father/mother when both are just parents? Son/daughter are just your kids. I don't think distinctions necessarily imply a hierarchy, just a recognition of gender.

Eowyn is the exception in being a physical hero. It's hard for me to imagine Galadriel taking up a sword and charging the enemy like Uncle Fingolfin did. Similarly, Luthien doesn't resort to combat or weapon-wielding, while Beren does. There are distinctions between how genders act as heroes.

Then again, I think Finarfin, who comes across as gentle, is heroic in his moral courage of forsaking the revolt of the Noldor and daring to face the judgment of the Valar. And Frodo and Sam are heroic in their commitment to each other and fulfilling their quest while performing minimal combat. All this to say that heroes come in different categories based on the inner qualities of the person that are called to the fore.

Hence, I hope you don't feel that I've demeaned Luthien by calling her a heroine. I use the term in keeping with the Euro-tradition of "heroines" in tales and the expectations of them and limitations put upon them, and how she breaks the mold. Not just breaks it, but shatters it out of existence, which is heroic in itself. She even does so without being called "man-hearted." It would be a compliment to a man to say he's "Luthien-hearted." Since the exploits of these two lovers are forever enshrined in song, what influence does Luthien have on following generations of Elf and Edain women that they can accomplish great things themselves?

Anyway, whatever the moniker, she's a stand-out hero to me.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 1:36pm

Post #62 of 344 (458 views)
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female suffixes to neutral nouns [In reply to] Can't Post

 
found a bunch, prodded by this (brief) article i found

female suffixes in the english language -- female nouns of agency


executor / executrix
comedian / comedienne
actor / actress
benefactor / benefactress
tailor / seamstress
author / authoress (yes, this one actually exists, and was in relatively recent use, 'tho now somewhat archaic)

i tend to use gender-neutral nouns, because it helps to level the playing field and break down thought-barriers.

i will confess to getting a kick out of the "-trix" suffiix, because it is no longer so common as to be gender imbalancing, the way others still can be ("seamstress," "actress," "benefactress"). i love language and i love to play with it, so "-trix" sounds playful to me, and seems non-volatile to play with, because it's almost archaic.

so.... i'm a....

postrix

... just making some observations.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 1:42pm

Post #63 of 344 (456 views)
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slander-monger [In reply to] Can't Post

 
curiousg, it is no less than what i would expect of a slander-monger such as yourself. if you were female, i would have to call you a slander-mongress.


just to note.... 'tho i loved your post and all it's great thoughts, i actually had +not a single person's+ post in mind on this thread when i was referencing the use of the word "heroine." i knew it had come up at least once on the thread, but couldn't remember by whom, and "by whom" was not important to me anyhows. : )

so, no suffix issues there. : )



cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 25 2013, 1:43pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 1:45pm

Post #64 of 344 (443 views)
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oh, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... being slandered by you is like being modded up by anyone else. : )


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 1:54pm

Post #65 of 344 (447 views)
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Yes, she's no Xena the Warrior Princess [In reply to] Can't Post

That's one thing I like about her. She shows plenty of confidence and resolve without resorting to combat with men to show who has the most testosterone and strongest muscles. Instead she relies on unlimited personal courage and intelligence. She didn't challenge Morgoth to combat like Fingolfin, which I think a Xena-type would. Instead she tricked him and used her spells when his guard was down. She didn't kill Carcharoth (would have been better if she had!) but put him to sleep. She got most physical in threatening to rob Sauron of his body. She knew her power was in her spells and wits.

One subtle scene I enjoy is that to prevent Beren being dragged before Thingol as a prisoner, she asserts her royal authority and intercedes to have him brought in as a guest and a suitor. That was a savvy, tactical move, and a mild slap in Daddy's face that he's not going to abuse her boyfriend, and she isn't going to remain passive in the situation.

Something else I observe about her is that she remains close to nature like any good Elf. In Doriath she sings and dances which ends winter and brings flowers to her feet. Her repeated use of sleep as a weapon and healing seem Elvish to me--isn't sleep entirely natural? More natural than stabbing someone. In her encounter with Morgoth, she offers her services as a minstrel, and don't Elves sing at every opportunity? (Did she sing tra-la-la?)


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 1:55pm

Post #66 of 344 (451 views)
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Who has been using the "heroine" word? Ctrl+F: Oh...it's me... [In reply to] Can't Post

So I should start by saying that I did not intend to offend.

We've been discussing the fact that Luthien's part in the chapter is a bit unusual against the reasonably widespread fantasy norm that would not allow her to have the heroic role she does have, because of her gender. So that led to my needing a term for "female hero", because that discussion (about whether authors have females in the heroic role and why/why not) does require acknowledgement of the gender of the hero. I am sorry if I have been offensively thoughtless about using "heroine" in this way - for example it carried connotations of "gosh, not bad for a girl!"

As it happens my own view is that being heroic has nothing to do with whether one is male or female (though anyone with the opposite view has to be equally welcome in these debates, I think, or the mods will rightly tell us off).

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 1:55pm

Post #67 of 344 (426 views)
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He's a good dog...// [In reply to] Can't Post

I do too. Huan fetched her the wrapper. (CG)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 1:59pm

Post #68 of 344 (443 views)
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by all the stars of elbereth... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
by all the stars of elbereth.... nowimė....

there was no offense taken -- at all, at all, at all...


i'm just making an observation in general, sparked by our discussions.... : )



cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 25 2013, 2:00pm

Post #69 of 344 (454 views)
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And likewise, I hope I didn't seem too defensive [In reply to] Can't Post

I was in fact conscious of using heroine whenever I did. I was going for the nuance of stereotype heroines and how Luthien violated them triumphantly.

But now I'll go to a coffee house and demand the serving wench give me some coffee after the hostess has seated me. If I don't like the waitress, I'll complain to the manageratrix, and then have a taxi driverette take me home, where my landlady is waiting for the rent. Today is a special election in Massachusetts, so I'll scan the list of candidatrixes and choose who our next politicenne will be. I am PC to the letter, as I'm sure any observatrice will agree.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 2:03pm

Post #70 of 344 (441 views)
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curiousg [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...you're my hermudgeon. even if you are a slandermonger.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 25 2013, 2:03pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 25 2013, 2:33pm

Post #71 of 344 (421 views)
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Will you be having the cockatrice egg omelette? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 2:35pm

Post #72 of 344 (429 views)
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brethil! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... beat me to it!


ha!


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 3:10pm

Post #73 of 344 (419 views)
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Another random question - B&L's life post-resurrection [In reply to] Can't Post

After the mano-a-mano-a-Mandos bit, the lovers return to Beleriand to live out their resumed lives. But they seem to drop out of society completely, so that there is hardly any news of them, not even when they died or where they might be buried.

Any ideas why that is?

Random suggestions:
  • Newlywed solipsism taken to extremes
  • Traumatized by adventures so far
  • It got tiresome that people kept asking Beren if he'd really died, or that people kept shouting "Arrg, it's the zombies, run!!"
  • Mandos gave them a rush of "Desolation of Smaug" as a wedding gift, on the condition they didn't' tell.

(BTW - "Newlywed solipsism" will be a Googlewack, when Google indexes this page. But probably pages you wrote yourself don't count. Bah!)

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 3:21pm

Post #74 of 344 (417 views)
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maciliel-thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 
what mandos granted beren was unheard of, and countermanded the fate of the second-born... it was probably a one-time only thing, and special dispensation must have been granted by eru (who probably had this in mind all along).

i think part of it is poetic -- if you do bring a character back from the dead and that person mixes with the rest of us, we're going to ask that person, "so what was it like?" by removing beren and luthien to a disclosed but isolated location, they are living proof of mercy and faith, but the mystery endures.

but faith, by definition, can have no proof.... so their existence after the halls of mandos visit.... how do we know? who visited them? did they have servants? or did they do all for themselves, in a sort of rustic purity (which tolkien admired)?

perhaps the more "proof" that luthien and beren have returned is given, the more faith is undermined. best to leave it sketchy.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 3:25pm

Post #75 of 344 (410 views)
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aside from people descendants [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm looking at theme descendants...


love + faith

result in

resurrection

results in

hope and self-sacrifice

result in

forgiveness and renewal



i absolutely know that tolkien did not like allegory in general, and in particular, he thought of these histories as populated by real people, not stand-ins for philosophy.

however, since these people arose by his own hand, his hand, in turn, is guided by his mind -- both conscious and subconscious -- so i think a lot of these catholic themes of love, forgiveness, etc. to find their ways into the narrative.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

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