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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Do we need Bolg to take over from Azog?

1415dr
The Shire

Jun 24 2013, 2:20pm

Post #1 of 19 (966 views)
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Do we need Bolg to take over from Azog? Can't Post

Hi! I've read some people talking about Azog being killed off in DOS to be replaced by Bolg. I thought I'd share my own opinion on the subject.

I'll start by saying that I'm an extreme literalist when it comes to Tolkein adaptations. My brother and I were furious as kids when the Rankin/Bass cartoon omited Beorn, and we were just as furious when PJ elminated Tom Bombadill from FOTR. But now I'm starting to think that deviation is sometimes necessary. Here is my opinion on Azog:

PJ wanted to include the background stories of Moria and the dwarves, but there wasn't time to get it all right. He also thought that it would be more exciting if the dwarves were fleeing from an imminent threat, rather than just adventuring (I personally disagree with that move because it undermines Thorin's determination to succeed despite setbacks). But the Black Riders were one of the best parts of FOTR, so he wanted to replicate the sense of being pursued.

So PJ decides to take some parts of the Azog story and fit them into the narrative. I disagree with that, but since there's nothing we can do at this point, where do we go from here?

I suggest that Azog should remain the primary orc villain until the end, and Bolg should play second fiddle. It's too late to introduce the audience to "Bolg, son of that big white guy that's been chasing Thorin." I suggest that Azog be the one to *Spoiler* you-know-who at the BOFA, which results in Thorin's final realization that pride and wealth are not the most valuable things in life. Azog's Ahab-like obsession with Thorin shows the worst parts of his own obsession with revenge and glory. I just don't think Bolg will be able to have the same impact. That's why I think Azog should survive until the end, even if it means the further contradicting the source material.

Sorry to ramble on. Thanks for your time!


jordagorn
The Shire

Jun 24 2013, 2:42pm

Post #2 of 19 (593 views)
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Agreed (possible spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's too late for Bolg. We haven't been introduced to him yet so there's no point in trying to make him fill the role as lead orc. I think its best they leave him in Dol Guldur. The only problem with that is how will he have a showdown with Beorn? They could let that battle happen at Dol Guldur but then we might not see Beorn at BOFA which would be a bid disappointment for people. I suppose he could attack Dol Guldur and show up at BOFA but he won't have as big of a role in the latter because Dain needs to be the one to off Azog or there's no reason for him to deserve the throne of Erebor.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 24 2013, 2:46pm

Post #3 of 19 (583 views)
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If a "pursuer" of Thorin was inescapable... [In reply to] Can't Post

I would rather have seen them use Bolg instead of altering all of the timelines of Azog and the Dwarf/Orc War, but it looks as if all of the historical backstory Appendix material that has anything to do with The Hobbit is being inserted into the timeline of The Hobbit (Azog, Mirkwood decay, Thrain), it looks absolutely likely that Azog is going to be with us until the Bo5A. SPOILERSo since this is unavoidable at this point, I hope that they keep Bolg as the one to kill Thorin, and allow Dain to dispatch of Azog in the Bo5A. I know probably most everyone wants to see Thorin kill Azog, but I don't.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 24 2013, 2:54pm

Post #4 of 19 (555 views)
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I agree, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

While I have no problem with the way they have chosen to incorporate Azog and some of that backstory in the film, I do not see why they cannot also develop Bolg, as they have two movies left in which to do it!. He's not the only significant Hobbit book character we have not met yet - Bard and Beorn are also still to come. Also Thranduil has barely been seen, and there will be "added" characters (Legolas and Tauriel) in the second film. In my view, Bolg could be linked to some of these new characters in ways that make his introduction natural and interesting.

This is the main reason I disagree with the oft-voiced complaint that "an Orc chasing Thorin would be fine but it should be Bolg because Azg should be dead". I think Bolg will have his own role to play, not instead of, but in addition to, Azog.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jun 24 2013, 3:03pm

Post #5 of 19 (549 views)
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I'd be happy if Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

died of a 'roid-rage induced heart attack at the beginning of DoS.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 24 2013, 5:32pm

Post #6 of 19 (489 views)
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Bolg should have been the villain, if anyone... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
PJ wanted to include the background stories of Moria and the dwarves, but there wasn't time to get it all right. He also thought that it would be more exciting if the dwarves were fleeing from an imminent threat, rather than just adventuring (I personally disagree with that move because it undermines Thorin's determination to succeed despite setbacks). But the Black Riders were one of the best parts of FOTR, so he wanted to replicate the sense of being pursued.



It would have been just as easy (and would have made more sense) to show Azog being killed and have his son Bolg be the one to swear vengeance. Thus, it would have been Bolg pursuing the company where he could remain an antagonist right up to the Battle of the Five Armies.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jun 24 2013, 5:37pm

Post #7 of 19 (464 views)
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Totally agreed... [In reply to] Can't Post

but I guess Bolg just doesn't have as cool a name! Wink


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 24 2013, 5:46pm

Post #8 of 19 (472 views)
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Bolg [In reply to] Can't Post

He will probably be just another growling brute but when you have about 5.5-6 hours of story left I think they won't have any problem introducing him and making him bada**. Bolg is connected to the DG stuff which got moved to DoS so I'm not worried about his non inclusion in AUJ. Plus, when I think about TABA there are so many thing that are going to happen that we have no idea about. Why can Bolg be really developed here? And who knows maybe they will try to have him make Azog look less intense with some brutal torture/killing scenes.


Carnivoran
The Shire

Jun 24 2013, 6:44pm

Post #9 of 19 (445 views)
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At this point, we should stick to Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

One I never really liked the design of Bolg. He looks more like a clown than anything else. Although he looks very CGI, I prefer the look of Azog.

Aside from my personal preferences, I think having Bolg will just be confusing for those who are not well versed in Tolkien's universe. I mean no one really gets how Bolg is the son of Azog anyway or whether that was for sure Tolkien's final decision on the matter. In Jacksons LotR, orcs are made, not born, so the son of another orc thing doesn't make so much sense for the movie. Really, Bolg will be reduced to just another orc trying to kill some dwarves. The only difference is that this orc looks like a clown.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 1:10am

Post #10 of 19 (370 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Aside from my personal preferences, I think having Bolg will just be confusing for those who are not well versed in Tolkien's universe. I mean no one really gets how Bolg is the son of Azog anyway or whether that was for sure Tolkien's final decision on the matter.


Bolg had an active role in the book, Azog did not. So I don't get why one would think that using Bolg would have been more complicated than adding a dead character that was mentioned once in the book (Azog), and then inventing a sub-plot for him, and then inventing a totally different sub-plot for Bolg.

And yes, Tolkien settled on the fact that Bolg was the offspring of Azog. He left it in The Hobbit even after the revisions, so it's canon.


Quote
In Jacksons LotR, orcs are made, not born, so the son of another orc thing doesn't make so much sense for the movie.


This only applied to Saruman's Uruk-hai in the films, not the rest of the orcs. Saruman tells Lurtz this in the FOTR film - "Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life. Now... perfected. My fighting Uruk-hai."


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jun 25 2013, 1:13am)


Carnivoran
The Shire

Jun 25 2013, 1:25am

Post #11 of 19 (357 views)
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Clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me clarify that I believe "Azog" in the film should be Bolg. My point was that the damage has been done. Bolg really is only going to complicate things. Most people I have talked to think orcs are made. Many did not catch Saruman's remarks to Lurtz.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 1:36am

Post #12 of 19 (340 views)
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I certainly would not complain if that were to happen... [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eurolock
Bree

Jun 25 2013, 5:15pm

Post #13 of 19 (293 views)
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i wonder why Jackson didn't do this... [In reply to] Can't Post

I really don't understand this either. Having Azog die at Azanulbizar and using Bolg, motivated by the desire for revenge, pursue the company would seem to be the much more obvious choice....and one that would certainly have been more palatable to many Tolkien fans.

I would love to hear Peter Jackson's reasons for not going down this road.....I simply cannot believe that they didn't at least consider it. I'm really hoping it wasn't just because 'Azog' had what was perceived to be a 'better' name.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 25 2013, 5:30pm

Post #14 of 19 (289 views)
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My opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that Peter Jackson and Co. want both Azog and Bolg to be in the film series. Azog, because his name is cool and his backstory relating to Thror and Thorin is even more cool, and Bolg, because he is a named character within the novel they are adapting. I expect that Bolg, with his separate and distinct storyline, will be introduced in DoS, and will go on to play the role in the coming book-spoiler events, that he has in the book.

In a very literal adaptation Bolg would actually only be introduced in TABA (as the point in the book where we first hear his name will definitely not be until the final film) but I expect, given all that is already out there on Bolg's involvement with Dol Guldur, that Jackson intends to give us more time with this character, making his eventual destiny more satisfying to the viewing audience.


Ffnir
Rohan


Jun 25 2013, 5:31pm

Post #15 of 19 (286 views)
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I think it's the end of a complicated story [In reply to] Can't Post

with changes of actor, of designs choices, of film splitting... they had to change a lot of thing along the way. I'm sure the story as it is now was never even considered in pre-production


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 25 2013, 7:01pm

Post #16 of 19 (282 views)
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Yes, PJ wanted both of them in the films... [In reply to] Can't Post

And this is where my main problem lies - I already feel like Bilbo is playing second fiddle to Thorin in his own story, and I really could do without anymore Peter Jackson-Fran Walsh-Philippa Boyens-penned subplots IMO further crowding Bilbo out of his story (I know now that my wish is a pipe-dream). It seems like every character that was mentioned even once in The Hobbit book is now getting his own subplot (and even some who weren't mentioned).


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 4:25am

Post #17 of 19 (263 views)
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I disagree for many reasons. Among them, using Azog in this way entirely rewrites the motivation for the war of The Dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

and misrepresents them as a people. They were patriarchal to an almost religious degree, and the desecration of the heir of their eldest Forefather, the symbolic father of their entire race, was something that could not be tolerated. Azog wasn't trying to wipe out the line of Durin. But all the houses of the dwarves were bent on wiping out Azog for the afront to the heir of Durin. Moria, however, remained beyond them. Not because of any orc, but because of the great Demon of Might and Terror who slew Durin himself and drove the dwarves from Moria to begin with.

They could have used Azog in the prologue, had Thorin slay him (and witness Durin's Bane and come down gray with fear and never speaking of what he saw within, as a nod to what happened with Dain), had Bolg witness it, and thus have the proper motivation for vengeance. When Bolg catches Thorin he speaks of how he captured and tormented Thrain. Now the vengeful drive runs both ways, and history need not be dreadfully altered.


I am sick of seeing Azog. I think he was well done and acted, but terribly misplaced, and if he lives past DOS it will be deeply rankling to me. He will, in essence, have become a more prominent villian than Smaug or Sauron, and may possibly get more screentime and plot relevance than anyone save Sauron in the Rings films. It is too much. Azog is not a more serious threat that Smaug, Saruman, The Nazgul, The Balrog etc. And he should be a springing board for Bolg, not a supplanting factor.

In Reply To
Hi! I've read some people talking about Azog being killed off in DOS to be replaced by Bolg. I thought I'd share my own opinion on the subject.

I'll start by saying that I'm an extreme literalist when it comes to Tolkein adaptations. My brother and I were furious as kids when the Rankin/Bass cartoon omited Beorn, and we were just as furious when PJ elminated Tom Bombadill from FOTR. But now I'm starting to think that deviation is sometimes necessary. Here is my opinion on Azog:

PJ wanted to include the background stories of Moria and the dwarves, but there wasn't time to get it all right. He also thought that it would be more exciting if the dwarves were fleeing from an imminent threat, rather than just adventuring (I personally disagree with that move because it undermines Thorin's determination to succeed despite setbacks). But the Black Riders were one of the best parts of FOTR, so he wanted to replicate the sense of being pursued.

So PJ decides to take some parts of the Azog story and fit them into the narrative. I disagree with that, but since there's nothing we can do at this point, where do we go from here?

I suggest that Azog should remain the primary orc villain until the end, and Bolg should play second fiddle. It's too late to introduce the audience to "Bolg, son of that big white guy that's been chasing Thorin." I suggest that Azog be the one to *Spoiler* you-know-who at the BOFA, which results in Thorin's final realization that pride and wealth are not the most valuable things in life. Azog's Ahab-like obsession with Thorin shows the worst parts of his own obsession with revenge and glory. I just don't think Bolg will be able to have the same impact. That's why I think Azog should survive until the end, even if it means the further contradicting the source material.

Sorry to ramble on. Thanks for your time!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 4:26am

Post #18 of 19 (248 views)
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Not Glorfindel and Bombadil. Secondary characters stay ommitted. Tertiary charcters and add ins [In reply to] Can't Post

become stars. lol. Unsure

In Reply To
And this is where my main problem lies - I already feel like Bilbo is playing second fiddle to Thorin in his own story, and I really could do without anymore Peter Jackson-Fran Walsh-Philippa Boyens-penned subplots IMO further crowding Bilbo out of his story (I know now that my wish is a pipe-dream). It seems like every character that was mentioned even once in The Hobbit book is now getting his own subplot (and even some who weren't mentioned).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 4:30am

Post #19 of 19 (291 views)
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I am not a fan of sticking consitently with a horrible decision. Orcs are bred and born [In reply to] Can't Post

and the business in the fellowship movies was a bizzare deviation. It also can be assumed to ONLY apply to the Uruk-Hai (even if it is entirely wrong regarding them).

In Reply To
One I never really liked the design of Bolg. He looks more like a clown than anything else. Although he looks very CGI, I prefer the look of Azog.

Aside from my personal preferences, I think having Bolg will just be confusing for those who are not well versed in Tolkien's universe. I mean no one really gets how Bolg is the son of Azog anyway or whether that was for sure Tolkien's final decision on the matter. In Jacksons LotR, orcs are made, not born, so the son of another orc thing doesn't make so much sense for the movie. Really, Bolg will be reduced to just another orc trying to kill some dwarves. The only difference is that this orc looks like a clown.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

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