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apariel
The Shire
Jun 21 2013, 10:17pm
Post #1 of 24
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Similar music bits for Thorin and The Nine?
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Hello, I have a question about one bit of music in AUJ...
I don't know, if this had already been discussed but:
Remember the scene when Thorin decides to attack Azog and he first strides and than runs to kill this pale orc (after the company of dwarves had been attacked by warks and now most of them sitting in a tree or dangling from a wizards stick)? Is this music/chorus very very similar to what in LotR was played for the ring wraights or is it just me? Because for me it sounds exactly the same just a bit higher, a pure female chorus and a different accord in the end...
Could this be? And if so - why?
Any ideas about this?
Greetings
Apariel
..." we are sitting on a field of victory,...
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jun 21 2013, 10:44pm
Post #2 of 24
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I'm pretty sure this has been discussed here before, but it's just one of those moments that makes a viewer scratch their head and go "Why?" It is the same music associated with the ring-wraiths in LOTR. Although I would say that it is a mixed chorus, however the text is different from that used in FOTR (however I haven't been able to find a translation of the text used in TH).
Here is what Doug Adams has to say on the topic:
The music of Azog has caused something of a stir this weekend. Why does his last scene in the film include music we've previously associated with Mordor? I can't fully answer that question, but I can lead you a bit: Azog's primary theme is a descending pair of thirds (G-Eb-F-D) with a chromatic snap at the end (Eb-D-Db). Musically, Azog has a connection to Mordor's musical world from his first appearance on. His final scene is very much in line with this approach. Why this consistent connection? We shall see ...
Link http://www.musicoflotr.com/2012/12/notes.html
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf
Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."
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apariel
The Shire
Jun 21 2013, 10:56pm
Post #3 of 24
(596 views)
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Similar music bits for Thorin and the nine?
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Thank you bungobaggins, this way around looking form Azogs perspective more than from Thorins it makes a bit more sense...
..." we are sitting on a field of victory,...
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hobbitylass
Bree
Jun 22 2013, 2:01am
Post #4 of 24
(523 views)
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yes, this has always bothered me a little too
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and I never realized that this passage of music was tied to Azog before reading this. Thanks for clearing that up for me!
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xxxyyy
Rohan
Jun 22 2013, 2:05am
Post #5 of 24
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Thorin has one of the Seven Rings of Power, which is "corrupting" him, making him more greed, or whatever.
I hope this is true because we could have more backstory about the Rings of Power, disgracefully missing from LOTR.
http://energyfromthorium.com/
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Bumpypotato
Bree
Jun 22 2013, 5:34am
Post #6 of 24
(489 views)
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I'm pretty sure this has been discussed here before, but it's just one of those moments that makes a viewer scratch their head and go "Why?" It is the same music associated with the ring-wraiths in LOTR. Although I would say that it is a mixed chorus, however the text is different from that used in FOTR (however I haven't been able to find a translation of the text used in TH). Here is what Doug Adams has to say on the topic: The music of Azog has caused something of a stir this weekend. Why does his last scene in the film include music we've previously associated with Mordor? I can't fully answer that question, but I can lead you a bit: Azog's primary theme is a descending pair of thirds (G-Eb-F-D) with a chromatic snap at the end (Eb-D-Db). Musically, Azog has a connection to Mordor's musical world from his first appearance on. His final scene is very much in line with this approach. Why this consistent connection? We shall see ... Link http://www.musicoflotr.com/2012/12/notes.html
Firstly, hi all! I've been lurking here for a while, and you all seem like a rather dapper lot, so I thought I'd break my silence and start posting.
I find that quote by Doug Adams to be quite intriguing; it definitely sounds like he's hinting at some actual plot details. His words could even support the theory that Azog has been resurrected by the Necromancer, or at the very least is in line with him.
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TheImaginator
Rivendell
Jun 22 2013, 11:13am
Post #7 of 24
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We associate that music with The Nine and as we know they have been resurrected by the Necromancer. I think this music is there to tie Azog to the Necromancer as well.
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jun 22 2013, 3:32pm
Post #8 of 24
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Another interesting thing to note is that some of the music associated with Dol Guldur is remarkably similar to Azog's theme. When Radagast first approaches DG in his sled we hear E-C-D-B (downward sequence of thirds) followed by C-B-A# (chromatic "tail"). This is just a transposition of how we usually hear Azog's theme as detailed by Adams.
So there is indeed a connection between the two.
Another interesting thing is that Smaug's theme is reminiscent of the Mordor theme from LOTR. The Mordor theme is C#-D-C#-D-C#-Bb, Smaug's theme is D-C# D-C#-Bb-A. Both use an altered phyrigian mode, so it would seem that for most of the evil things in Middle-Earth, their music is cut from the same cloth. (I wouldn't say that there is a direct correlation between Smaug and Mordor/Barad-dur, but I would say that Howard is trying to evoke the same ideas through similar scale choices.)
This also brings up another point: There seems to be another musical element that unifies most of Middle-Earth's baddies, which is a descending melodic line at the end of the their themes. For Azog (Eb-D-Db), for Dol Guldur (same as Azog), for Mordor/Barad-dur (D-C#-Bb), for Smaug (D-C#-Bb-A), for Saruman (has a similar downward motion, but don't know the notes off the top of my head).
So Howard is infusing similar qualities into the music we associate with Middle-Earth villains. They all seem to evoke an Eastern flavor (exotic, not familiar to our ears).
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf
Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."
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xxxyyy
Rohan
Jun 22 2013, 6:08pm
Post #9 of 24
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The problem is that it strongly refers to Thorin, not Azog.
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Not a single moment I thought that music was referring to Azog, that's why it felt weird.
In fact why using it only at that moment in the movie and not during the other times Azog was on sceen?
The theme seems to be connected to Thorin too.
In which way, I don't know.
http://energyfromthorium.com/
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jun 22 2013, 6:57pm
Post #10 of 24
(373 views)
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Not a single moment I thought that music was referring to Azog
And to be honest I don't really buy Adams' explanation (I view him more as a PR guy for Howard than as an objective analyst). For me the only way the music works is for dramatic bulid up of Thorin's charge. In terms of it being used as some sort of leitmotif, or for referential purposes, I feel that it really falls flat. What was included on the soundtrack CD sounds a lot better in my opinion (and it's more dwarvish, so we could say it's definitely associated with Thorin).
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf
Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 22 2013, 7:51pm
Post #11 of 24
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and I too thought that the music was referencing Thorin more than Azog, since it started whilst focussing on Thorin's face and his charge towards Azog. I wonder how much input HS actually had to changing the score at that point. In LOTR he was so meticulous in his ascribing of motifs and instrumentation to different peoples and places, that I find it hard to believe that he would have been happy with this change. Likewise the use of the Gondor reborn theme during the Thorin/Bilbo hug moment. If the music IS referencing Azog, then your analysis is spot on, but if not, it seems a bit pointless to say the least. In general I enjoyed the score for AUJ and didn't mind the LOTR references, most of which made sense to me, but these two changes in particular make no sense as seen. Perhaps further explanation will be available with the EE's and Complete Recordings (I do hope we are going to get the CR)
Thanks for your interesting analysis BB!
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jun 22 2013, 8:11pm
Post #12 of 24
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I like to talk about the music in these movies (more than any other aspect, and it's kinda rare and exciting when a music thread pops up here because we're all focused on plot and changes from the books), although at times it can be frustrating/confusing.
I can see them explaining away the Azog/Necromancer connection, but there really is no excuse to use the Gondor Reborn theme at the end of the AUJ, it really diminishes its power in ROTK, especially this moment in the EE: http://youtu.be/jjfgnDAY1k8?t=1m27s
Oh well, now I just call it "Generic Happy Resolution Theme #1". 
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf
Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."
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apariel
The Shire
Jun 22 2013, 9:33pm
Post #13 of 24
(320 views)
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I reviewed the scene a few times, but for me, it still does not relate to Azog in any way. I rather buy the idea elaen32 that HS went for this bit because of an information like a "fight between Azog and Thorin". Jepp, that works for me! Taking into consideration, that Azog was saved form death by PJs decision to make 3 films at the very last minute - there might have been simply no time. (that would - by the way - might also explain the slightly disturbing use of the Gondor theme at the end...)
In the process of reading, watching and writing I also figured, that the Nazgul were pride and greedy kings! The love of gold runs in Thorins family and "his pride will be his downfall" as Gandalf puts it. Which, for me, strongly relates to the book.
I guess, we have to wait until we have seen everything, maybe it will make a lot more sense in the end, if you have all 6 extended cuts side by side (a a huge amount of time at hand...;-)
Thanks for sharing your ideas (but I'm a bit lost what EE and CR might be... )
..." we are sitting on a field of victory,...
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jun 22 2013, 9:55pm
Post #14 of 24
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That's a good way to think about it that I hadn't really considered yet! And not just in his desire to take back his homeland and his gold, but in settling an old score with Azog. He could have just waited there and the eagles would have been by in a few minutes to pick them up. A noble man's (dwarf's) descent into greed and revenge.
You are right, we will have to wait for everything to be said and done. But I am afraid that, even when we have all extended editions and have (hopefully) heard from Howard, it may still not make sense to me.
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf
Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."
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burgahobbit
Rohan
Jun 22 2013, 11:15pm
Post #15 of 24
(298 views)
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EE = Extended Edition and CR = Complete Recordings.
"I have found it is in the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keep the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir. You are not alone. If ever you should need my help, I will come." -Lady Galadriel.
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Lusitano
Tol Eressea
Jun 23 2013, 12:08am
Post #16 of 24
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have u seen thorins charge at The Bald One with the original music?
So much better. Personally, i dont watch that scene, but if i did i would only watch it with that dwarvish sounding music, rather than having references to the nazgul thrown at me 
Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jun 23 2013, 12:22am
Post #17 of 24
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Howard composes such beautiful music for these films, it's a shame that the Nazgul and Gondor Reborn these are recycled. I'm holding out hope that these things are different when the EE comes out.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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hobbitylass
Bree
Jun 23 2013, 1:21am
Post #19 of 24
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because I looked at it again and to me it seems like the iconic Black Rider music starts up clearly at the moment when Thorin stands up on the tree trunk to begin his charge. It seems completely out of place (though I do agree with some of the thoughts above about darker aspects of Thorin's character at work here.) I'd rather have had a rework of a Thorin's theme (is there a Thorin's theme, by the way?) to show that instead of what we have now.
It's as if the exec in your example wanted music that sounded "intense" and remembered how memorable that music was in FOTR.
I also think the music suffered from the relatively late switch from two movies to three. That may be why the Misty Mountains theme was used so often, and so heavy-handedly at times. (I'm thinking of the troll scene and goblin town, and some of the helicopter shots of the company walking - to me it seemed like a formula of "dwarves! cue the MM theme! - and make it louder and faster if they're fighting!")
I'm also hopeful that movies two and three will have better scores.
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jun 23 2013, 1:52am
Post #20 of 24
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is there a Thorin's theme, by the way?
Yes there is.
It can be heard on the soundtrack in multiple locations.
In the first track, I assume that it was supposed to be used as Thorin leads the dwarf soldiers to defend Erebor's main gate, but we don't hear it in the film's score. http://youtu.be/Jgkqz2MutA8?t=5m33s
During the track Axe or Sword, when Thorin arrives at Bag End. http://youtu.be/Jgkqz2MutA8?t=16m5s
At the end of An Ancient Enemy, Balin's speech "There is one who I could follow..." http://youtu.be/Jgkqz2MutA8?t=31m34s
Those are the only appearances of Thorin's theme that I can think of off the top of my head.
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf
Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."
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Doug Adams
Bree
Jun 23 2013, 2:47am
Post #21 of 24
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Not a single moment I thought that music was referring to Azog And to be honest I don't really buy Adams' explanation (I view him more as a PR guy for Howard than as an objective analyst).
PR guys are on a payroll. I'm independent, thus still as objective as can be ... well, until someone backs up the money truck. ;)
Regards,
D
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jun 23 2013, 3:14am
Post #22 of 24
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Perhaps my assessment was unfair, but in the aftermath of AUJ I suppose I felt there wasn't much of an official voice out there that was critical of the score (don't get me wrong, the CD soundtrack is fine). What I've noticed here and elsewhere on the internet is that quite a few people have been, and still are, utterly confused about some of the choices made in the score (particularly at the end of the film: Azog v. Thorin, Bilbo & Thorin's resolution; an entire track that is missing from the film "A Good Omen").
If there's anything you can tell us about these changes other than what you've said about them on your website, I, and I'm sure many other people here, would love to hear!
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf
Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."
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Theoden
The Shire
Jun 28 2013, 10:00pm
Post #23 of 24
(156 views)
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... is a lot better than the actual movie score. When I heard the Black Rider theme during the Thorin & Azog fight for the first time I almost lost it. I bought the OST anyway because I need the music for my M2TW music mod and to my surprise, there was music composed for this scene by Howard Shore! It seems like the Black Rider was just a placeholder and they forgot to change it in the editing process. I still hope EE will have the correct music playing in this scene.
And I'm pretty sure "A Good Omen" was supposed to be playing instead of The Last March when the eagles rescue Bilbo and company.
Does anyone know if it's possible to edit the movie and change the music manually? If EE does not have correct music I will be forced to do it because I can't stand Thorin & Azog and the final scene with Thorin & Bilbo. They are so... Inapropriate.
Another thing I noticed is that AUJ soundtrack is quite repetitive. I know it consists of different themes that have to be repeated at times, but there are actually very few new themes. As I mentioned before, I'm making a music mod and I was hoping for a lot of dwarven music. Well, that has not been the case. There are exactly 3 (!) dwarven themes - Misty Mountains, Erebor, and Thorin. That's it. It appears as if Howard Shore ran out of time to finnish the score...
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered! A sword day... a red day... ere the sun rises!
Ride now!... Ride now!... Ride! Ride for ruin and the world's ending!
Death! Death!! DEATH!!!
Forth, Eorlingas!
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Doug Adams
Bree
Jun 29 2013, 1:50am
Post #24 of 24
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I'm very limited in terms of what I can discuss while the films are still in production. Sorry!
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You're welcome!
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